dog food and breeding rats

hello im new to breeding rats. I keep seeing a lot of people who saying dog food isn't a good choice to feed rats. I have been feeding ol'roy that has the high protein and high fat. 27% protein and 13% fat. they love it. I also keep seeing that you should keep the protein under 20%. my thoughts is that if females are breeding heavily wouldn't they want as much protein and fat as they can especially when they are nursing? As im new to this im just looking for tips. I haven't been able to find a good supplier of mazuri anywhere. I live in Wichita ks. I aslo give them carrots and celery everyday which they love. I pay 22 bucks a bag for the dog food currently. is there any reason I should switch to something else? im having high numbers in my breeding. babies range anywhere from 12 to 18 per litter and haven't lost a 1. I have about 150 females that are about 8 to 10 weeks old but haven't produced a litter yet. when can I expect them to start breeding? any help would be greatly appreciated. thanks

Ideally you want 18% protein, too much protein and you are risking kidney failure, you also want to feed food without red dye.

See there is the problem......
Many of the dog foods with close to the correct protein run about $20ish a bag.
Mazuri rodent is $27 a bag here and it lasts longer.

I gave up on overworking to try and save a couple bucks.

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Originally Posted by kwright

hello im new to breeding rats. I keep seeing a lot of people who saying dog food isn't a good choice to feed rats. I have been feeding ol'roy that has the high protein and high fat. 27% protein and 13% fat. they love it. I also keep seeing that you should keep the protein under 20%. my thoughts is that if females are breeding heavily wouldn't they want as much protein and fat as they can especially when they are nursing? As im new to this im just looking for tips. I haven't been able to find a good supplier of mazuri anywhere. I live in Wichita ks. I aslo give them carrots and celery everyday which they love. I pay 22 bucks a bag for the dog food currently. is there any reason I should switch to something else? im having high numbers in my breeding. babies range anywhere from 12 to 18 per litter and haven't lost a 1. I have about 150 females that are about 8 to 10 weeks old but haven't produced a litter yet. when can I expect them to start breeding? any help would be greatly appreciated. thanks

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Doggy bag at TSC has 18% protein and is $13/40lbs. I have seen no difference in my rats after switching from using Mazuri for a couple years. As far as I can tell, there is no difference, or very little, in the composition of Doggy Bag and Mazuri.

I also try to stay away from dog foods as a primary diet. Most cheap dog foods contain dyes and such that are not good for the rats. Too much protein and fat can cause just as many health problems as not enough. I haven't been breeding my rats long; only since the summer, but I've had good results with my rat diet.

I feed Purina Mills Natures Match Sow and Pig pellets. I get 50lbs for about $13. I also get discounted, low protein dog food from work (usually no more than 25%) that I use as a supplement for pregnant and nursing moms (they get a small scoop of it every other day or so). I also will give dry and cooked pasta and sometimes fruit and veggie scraps. The pellet food when fed along with the supplement kibble and such will last me about a month (100lbs) for the three racks I have. The only downside to the pig pellets is the high waste due to the fact it crumbles and is too small to sit on the mesh. I plan on making the switch to Mazuri soon as it costs about $25/50lbs and there will be a lot less waste.

I get good results with the pig pellets and dog food supplement. My litters are usually around 12 or so with good fat babies. I plan on doing a comparison soon, if I have the time, of litter size and weights when fed the pig pellet and dog food mix as opposed to the mazuri.

I have had much better results with Mazuri than with any of the dog foods I tried.

One thing that is key with a rat colony though is culling selectively when it comes to holding back breeders. Holding back random babies won't work as well as holding back females from the best moms who have large litters that grow well.

Keeping the rats as clean as possible and making certain they never run out of water is another sometimes overlooked aspect.

But with most of the dog foods, I experienced some cannibalism in my colony. On Mazuri, I rarely ever have any issue. My rats gained weight better on the Mazuri and they have healthier coats on Mazuri.

It doesn't mean you can't have just as good of results on your particular feed. Every rat colony can be slightly different.

well don't feed high protein dog food. as someone mentioned above it can lead to kidney failure. ive lost 16 rats in 48 hours. ive taken them off the feed. hopefully I can get the fatalities under control.

how long have you been using doggy bag from tsc?

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Originally Posted by kwright

how long have you been using doggy bag from tsc?

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Ever since pet360 doubled the price on Mazuri. Someone may remember better than me but that's probably been about six months now?

It came highly recommended on another forum from several breeders who've been using it for years. I was highly hesitant to use dog food but its essentially identical to Mazuri as far as I can tell, both in the composition and how my rats handle it.

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Originally Posted by kwright

how long have you been using doggy bag from tsc?

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I am using it too

I have been breeding rats for 9 years, first 2 I used Mazuri, third I put 50% of my colony on Doggy Bag and kept the rest on Mazuri to be able to compare (litter production, mammary tumors, health etc) and I have been using doggy bag exclusively since.

Hope that helps.

http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/pro...g?cm_vc=-10005

This one?

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/pro...g?cm_vc=-10005

This one?

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Yep :gj:

I used to use the sprout complete from Fleet Farm which I think it pretty much the same thing as the TCS doggy bag just with Fleet Farms brand name.

protein content/fat is pretty much the same anyway.

still having deaths. 1 to 3 a day. hoping to get it under control. ive switched to doggy bag. of course I have sneezing rats now. ill check on them and everyone appears to be in good shape. come back 12 hours later and usually have 1 or 2 that has just fell over dead. ive introduced tetracycline (antibiotics) into my water system. I have a gravity fed system. hopefully I don't have issues with cloggage.

So my question is, if I have these rats fall over dead, is it safe to go ahead and feed them off to snakes, or should they just be thrown out. currently ive just been throwing them away, but if I can still use them as food and not get anyone else sick that would be the way to go.

also I heard apple cider vinegar can reduce illness? has anyone ever heard of this or used this in their own setup?

I seriously doubt that they're dying off that quickly due to liver failure. I would suspect some kind of toxin instead. In which case I wouldn't feed them to my snakes.

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Originally Posted by kwright

still having deaths. 1 to 3 a day. hoping to get it under control. ive switched to doggy bag. of course I have sneezing rats now. ill check on them and everyone appears to be in good shape. come back 12 hours later and usually have 1 or 2 that has just fell over dead. ive introduced tetracycline (antibiotics) into my water system. I have a gravity fed system. hopefully I don't have issues with cloggage.

So my question is, if I have these rats fall over dead, is it safe to go ahead and feed them off to snakes, or should they just be thrown out. currently ive just been throwing them away, but if I can still use them as food and not get anyone else sick that would be the way to go.

also I heard apple cider vinegar can reduce illness? has anyone ever heard of this or used this in their own setup?

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There is obviously something going on in your colony it does not mean it is food related.

Personally I would not feed a feeder that I found dead to one of my snake and I would be reluctant to feed anything coming out of a colony that is dropping dead not knowing the cause.

It is possible that you have to start your colony from scratch again if you cannot get this under control.

Did you add new rats to your colony recently? If you did, did you quarentine them?

I would stay away from dog food if you can, at all cost. When I used to breed rats I had the same situation with multiple random deaths occurring weekly until my whole colony was dead. I had a world renowned veterinary pathologist perform a necropsy and the majority of the dead animals had massive organ failure, including liver and kidneys.

Rodent block that is used in laboratories is a much better option, and does not cost anymore than dog food. All of the rats in our facility thrive on it, breeding prolifically.

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Originally Posted by JoshSloane

Rodent block that is used in laboratories is a much better option, and does not cost anymore than dog food.

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Right?!?!
Where???
Mazuri is $26.99 a bag here and Purina is $32.99
I do feed Mazuri but compared to Doggy Bag the cost is 0.22 cents per pound more.

Granted I do pay close to $60 a bad for our dogs food.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Right?!?!
Where???
Mazuri is $26.99 a bag here and Purina is $32.99
I do feed Mazuri but compared to Doggy Bag the cost is 0.22 cents per pound more.

Granted I do pay close to $60 a bad for our dogs food.

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Harlan lab block is ~28$ for 33 pounds. The premium dog food I was feeding the rats was about 45$ for a 33 pound bag.

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Originally Posted by JoshSloane

Harlan lab block is ~28$ for 33 pounds. The premium dog food I was feeding the rats was about 45$ for a 33 pound bag.

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Do you get it local?
I didn't factor that one is because now that they don't do free shipping its not even worth typing about.

The type of dog food makes all the difference. That premium stuff you used was no doubt excellent for dogs, but as you discovered, a killer food for rats, too high in protein. My females average 12-16+ pups per litter and I have been using cheap low protein dog food as a base food source for 5 years and never had any problems.

I do supplement with table scraps such as chicken and meat bones and have discovered that rats love mouse pinkies, fuzzies and hoppers. Any left over mice on snake feeding day goes to the rats and not the trash can. That is their only additional source of protein.

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Originally Posted by kwright

still having deaths. 1 to 3 a day. hoping to get it under control. ive switched to doggy bag. of course I have sneezing rats now. ill check on them and everyone appears to be in good shape. come back 12 hours later and usually have 1 or 2 that has just fell over dead.

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Sneezing could be an allergic reaction to their bedding, especially certain types of wood shavings. Or could be bad ventilation with sneezing cause by a reaction to the build up of uric acid fumes and if a ventilation problem, then the dropping dead could be due to a build up of carbon monoxide/dioxide in their tanks and/or from heat stroke if the tank temps are getting too high due to poor ventilation.

Generally, toxicity poisoning and illness display symptoms in rats or mice prior to death, such as listlessness, hunching up, puffed up fur, inflammation of the eyes, funny walk, inactivity, etc.
For otherwise healthy appearing rats to just randomly drop dead with no apparent symptoms is very disturbing and points to an environmental issue and not poisoning or illness.