To champaign or not

So I have been looking Into getting my next ball and was thinking about a champaign
Now I must say that I have stayed away from spiders and womas and all of the other wobble morphs
But the champaign pieds are just so spectacular looking
I also know that the severity of wobble is random in each snake as long as you don't mix the wobble morphs
So now for my question.
In your opinion are the benefits worth adding a champaign into my breeding program or are there better ways to go
And yes I know it is all personal preference what I want to know is would you add a morph with known neurological issues into a breeding program that you had tried to keep issue causing morphs out of just because you liked it

My male Ball has Wobble. He can hold his head perfectly still, and it really barely shows at all except in comparison to the female, who doesn't have it, and occasionally when he's checking out the top of his cage and gets 'lost', then ends up upside down and falling over. It really doesn't seem to bother him. He certainly has no trouble eating or navigating his cage.

Yep yep yep, go champagne. I can understand why some people think it's inhumane to breed animals with neurological problems, but you're right, it comes down to what you believe in. My reason for having Spiders and Champagnes is because I love them (:


http://i.imgur.com/ZcWuMxNl.jpg
From Loxahatchee Hatchery:
http://i.imgur.com/EcFkGj9l.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/E18mbVCl.jpg

This sounds like a head vs heart decision. ;) Even if you find and purchase the most amazing Champagne that's ever slithered this earth, if you can't come to terms the possibility of the wobbles, you will always second guess your purchase. Don't build your collection with animals that you regret purchasing - no matter how beautiful they are.

Personally, I don't have an issue with the wobbles - I just have too may other morphs on my list ahead of Champagne to think about adding one at this point in time. :gj:

The champagne was one of the first morphs that I really wanted but couldn't afford back then.
They are beautiful on their own.
If you think you might have a problem with wobble? That's something you are going to have to think about.
If you can past it then go for it.

From my limited experience with both, champagnes seem to have a lot less problems with the wobble than a spider does. Haven't had a spider yet that didn't show at least some wobble, but I never even knew champagnes had it until someone told me, and that was after having one for several months. Neither her nor the champagne pastel daughter she produced this year have ever really given me any signs of the wobble. But this is just a handful of sliders and two champagnes that I've dealt with, so take it for what it is.

I don't have a Champagne, but I did pick up 3 Bee variants a while back. They all wobble to some degree, one will actually corkscrew from time to time. However, they are all healthy, eat well, and two are big proven snakes. If the wobble was a life changing issue I don't think I'd have snakes this large, or that herpers in general would continue to have them available to keep. They'd simply die out, but that's not the case. You just have to decide if it's going to bother you to watch it. No, I don't like it when they cork out. But they are beautiful to look at and the tilting of the head adds to their personality...anthropomorphized as it may be. Let's face it, their snakes. It's really up to you, but the overwhelming evidence IMO is that is not really a detriment to the life of the snake.

Dave

In my experience the wobble in champagnes is pretty rare. I produced a couple dozen champagnes before I saw even the slightest wobble. At first I thought it was a rumor because I saw nothing in the handful of adults I raised and the babies all seemed fine as well.

Although I have seen wobble in Champs, I would say most are fine. Champs are actually the backbone of my breedings. I love that gene.

my Champagne girl has no wobble, tho she is a hissy baby. (doesn't strike tho) i haven't seen alotta Champagne Pieds but many regular and multi-gene Champagnes do have ringers. they vary in size. my girl has small partial ringers and a white tipped tail. i think some high ringer Champagnes can easily be mistaken for Champagne Pieds.

on the Spider wobble, my OD Spider has none. i got him some the same breeder as my Champagne girl who has produced non-wobble animals for a few seasons. i also have a Honey Bee (yet to be introduced to the forum) who has a slight wobble which is ok b/c it's a beautiful snake. i guess if u can, try holding a Champagne or Spider in person before purchase to try and see in person if it has a wobble. i think that's the best way to avoid it.

@Dave Green - BTW are those Mojave Pieds or Champagne Pieds in some of your logos and site pictures? what Pieds are they?

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Originally Posted by Ax01

my Champagne girl has no wobble, tho she is a hissy baby. (doesn't strike tho) i haven't seen alotta Champagne Pieds but many regular and multi-gene Champagnes do have ringers. they vary in size. my girl has small partial ringers and a white tipped tail. i think some high ringer Champagnes can easily be mistaken for Champagne Pieds.

on the Spider wobble, my OD Spider has none. i got him some the same breeder as my Champagne girl who has produced non-wobble animals for a few seasons. i also have a Honey Bee (yet to be introduced to the forum) who has a slight wobble which is ok b/c it's a beautiful snake. i guess if u can, try holding a Champagne or Spider in person before purchase to try and see in person if it has a wobble. i think that's the best way to avoid it.

@Dave Green - BTW are those Mojave Pieds or Champagne Pieds in some of your logos and site pictures? what Pieds are they?

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They are actually champagnes that I'm pretty sure are het pied. The lighter one is a fire champagne. I produced both of them from a fire x "extreme ringer" champagne breeding. When I first got my original extreme ringer champagne I didn't know she was het pied. I bred her to a pied to see how the pied would react with the ringer and I produced what looks like an albino pied and a regular albino along with some white snakes that were dead in the egg. So both my pied and champagne were het albino as well. The regular albino hatchling proved that the extreme ringer champ wasn't a pied but appears to be het pied. Confusing? I was pretty confused :)

^ :rofl:yes, confusing but sounds awesome. lol i think i need a chart to follow what u just posted.

also i remember reading that u produced the Super Champagne. it's unfortunate it was a fatal morph b/c she beautiful and held her pink color while she lasted. :(

I don't want to hijack this thread but if you search Extreme Ringer you should find a few threads about her and the breedings I mentioned.

http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/p...2014clutch.jpg

^ that's not hijacking the thread or off-topic at all. it gives the OP another idea or threads to read up on for their answer whether to get/breed champagne(s). :gj:

well this is the champ pied that got me looking into champs I think that this is one of the best pied combos I have ever seen

he is for sale on morph market by bob clark and wile I would just buy him I would much rather produce my own well that and I want a girl




[IMG]http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...psisdbsh2q.jpg[/IMG]

I love champs gonna be doing lots with them the next two seasons pied stuff, grey matter stuff is super cool.

On the wobble I haven't seen anything close to Spider type behavior yet.

I've had spiders for a long time. And breeding them. At least the few that I've had they seem perfectly normal. My big girl I have never seen a wobble in her life. My boy bumblebee has some now and then. But not too extreme. I don't see it much in my combos. Don't know why. But I have spider, woma and champagne. My new multi gene woma doesn't have any that I can notice. And my two gene champagne I have never notice a wobble. I've was trying to breed the champagne last year but no luck as to getting him to like my girls. Hoping to see some this coming year.

In all. All the morphs are worth it if you can just enjoy the animal whether or not they have a neurological problem. Do what makes you happy


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ok let me say that the reasons that I asked this in the first place is, wile I have been breeding snakes for some time I have bread show dogs for over 20 years
my reasons for asking about the wobble are that in dogs (yes I know snakes and dogs are way different) you do not breed a animal that has any issues
so this has been my reasons for staying away from all the wobble genes
Now most of you have said that the wobble in champs is rare and not very noticable

I am really thinking of getting one to pair with my pied I thank all those who have helped me in this matter Now starts the search for a nice female that is maybe a year or so old hope I find her