quarantine discussion every opinion counts

Ok, so to start things off i am dealing with a very complicated medical issue with 5 of my snakes, i am treating them with prescribed antibiotics and yes the animals were cultured. If anyone wants to read about my exact problems just find my posts. During the past month i had to take a crash course on reptile husbandry because i made some major mistakes when i bought my animals. I have researched this forum and other forums as well a medical reports, and i have came across some great tips and advice on keeping ball pythons, well reptiles in general. I also came across some things that i feel are absolutely ridiculous. I read a post by a forum member that says when she leaves the house and lets say goes to the pet store to lets say buy dog feed and there is reptiles in the store, when she gets home she takes her clothes off as soon as she walks in the door and puts them in a separate bag and washes them seperate and then immediately takes a shower her and everyone that walked into the pet store then went to her house. this one post made me laugh when reading it because i thought to myself holy cow is she serious. How in the world can i do that i enjoy my animals so much and i want my friends to enjoy them as well do i need them to fill out a questionare before they can come in. I started thinking that snakes, dogs, cats, etc all descended from wild animals but because dogs and cats where demistacted they where welcome in our homes around our friends and families with out fear of taking our clothes off when the walked in the house and immediately showering. I guess my point is that these animals have become resilient to a lot of bacterias because we didn't put them into a room and lock them away. One of the articles i read said that instead of trying to find ways to keep out reptiles isolated lets try and make them able to cope with a wide verity of situations. Now too hot or too cold yea that effects everything so yes i understand that point. I would like to hear others points of view

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Originally Posted by bulldog herp

I read a post by a forum member that says when she leaves the house and lets say goes to the pet store to lets say buy dog feed and there is reptiles in the store, when she gets home she takes her clothes off as soon as she walks in the door and puts them in a separate bag and washes them seperate and then immediately takes a shower her and everyone that walked into the pet store then went to her house.

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I have several small exotic pet stores in my area as well as the better known "big box" stores. I have brought home snake mites from the big box stores so I avoid them now. Of the smaller stores, two are well-known for selling sick and/or mite-infested animals so I have never been to them. The last store gets all of my business.

That said, after attending an expo I do immediately shower and wash my clothes when I get home, because I don't know every vendor there, and some just aren't that great. It doesn't matter whether or not I touched any animals there. I only go to one or two expos per year though, so taking extra precautions when I do isn't a big deal.

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this one post made me laugh when reading it because i thought to myself holy cow is she serious. How in the world can i do that i enjoy my animals so much and i want my friends to enjoy them as well do i need them to fill out a questionare before they can come in. I started thinking that snakes, dogs, cats, etc all descended from wild animals but because dogs and cats where demistacted they where welcome in our homes around our friends and families with out fear of taking our clothes off when the walked in the house and immediately showering. I guess my point is that these animals have become resilient to a lot of bacterias because we didn't put them into a room and lock them away. One of the articles i read said that instead of trying to find ways to keep out reptiles isolated lets try and make them able to cope with a wide verity of situations. Now too hot or too cold yea that effects everything so yes i understand that point. I would like to hear others points of view

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It depends on the collection and how much you value it. Some people don't permit anyone near their collections, period, not only to limit the spread of diseases but also because people like to run their mouths, and just like any other valuable, you don't want it getting around that you've got a fortune in snakes... or guns... or artwork... or classic cars... at your home waiting to be stolen. It's a security issue.

OTOH I've got friends and customers for my firearm business who don't own exotic pets, who never considered owning exotic pets (mainly because their wives are against it LOL), who I don't mind checking out my snakes if they show any interest.

One of the reasons why I wouldn't take a snake a vet unless absolutely necessary. Vets don't shower and change clothes between clients. As for the expos, those have hundreds of herp owning people crammed in a very small space handling vendors' snakes. I expect mites and pathogens do get transferred. Not sure what the chance of bringing home mites on one's clothes actually is. If I were a vendor, I would be uneasy about the animals I brought back home. Do vendors commonly quarantine after a show?

It has never occurred to me to change clothes after purchasing mice from our local pet store. Mice are carriers of mites. That problem is one more reason I prefer F/T if the snake will take it that way.

FWIW, poultry farmers are in the same boat right now. After the millions of chickens and turkeys were slaughtered from disease several months ago, many poultry shows were cancelled. Farmers have been cautious for a long time - my understanding is that those belonging to the NPIP (National Poultry Improvement Program) don't allow the public to tour their facilities, and haven't for years. Many places keep disposable booties to go over shoes so disease isn't transferred via boots. Other places keep a tray full of disinfectant at the door that you step in before entering.

Do these measures help? I am honestly skeptical of the whole situation. Personally, I think a lot of the slaughter was gov. hype, but I'm just a homesteader. I don't own a commercial facility.

The problem with mites is that you can still get them from f/t the eggs can survive the freezing and passing through the snake to hatch in the poo. Sometimes things just happen no matter how careful you are. That being said, quarantine is still very important to avoid the easily avoidable. I don't shower after a pet store, but I definitely scrub my hands and change my shirt or remove my jacket. I've only been to the one expo, but next time I will probably be a little more careful after the next one


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Over the years I have seen a few people lose their collection partially or entirely so quarentine is priority number one around here and only got stricter and stricter.

Any new animal is quarentined for at least 90 days in a room situated on a different floor than my snake room and at the opposite side of it.

The main snake room is also sealed of and therefore the air does not circulate from other room to this one.

New additions (one at the time unless it from the same breeder) are treated for mites regarless. When I get new additions I also treat my snake room for mites not the enclosures just the room (stairway, floors etc)

If I interact with my collection and QT animal I interact with my collection first and do not go back to the main snake room after dealing with QT animals.

I do not go to pet stores, and when I go to shows which I do 5 times a year or more I always undress wash cloth immidiately, shower and wash my hair and avoid my snake room until the following day.

I also only buy from a handful of breeders that are as paranoid as I am, I don't buy from Joe Schmoe on CL.

My collection is also now completely off limit no one is allowed in the snake room but me.

It might sound over killed but it has worked for me, I have work too hard to get my collection where it is now to take any risk.

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Originally Posted by bulldog herp

I started thinking that snakes, dogs, cats, etc all descended from wild animals but because dogs and cats where demistacted they where welcome in our homes around our friends and families with out fear of taking our clothes off when the walked in the house and immediately showering. I guess my point is that these animals have become resilient to a lot of bacterias because we didn't put them into a room and lock them away. One of the articles i read said that instead of trying to find ways to keep out reptiles isolated lets try and make them able to cope with a wide verity of situations. Now too hot or too cold yea that effects everything so yes i understand that point. I would like to hear others points of view

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There's a few problems with this comparison. Dogs and cats are prone to communicable diseases and pests as well, but since we know so much more about them, treatments are more advanced. Many serious illnesses can be vaccinated against early in life. Not so with snakes. And unlike reptile breeders, dog owners don't typically house their pets together in large groups or trade them with keepers in other states or countries. When they do cross borders, they need an array of paperwork confirming their health. Because both of these things are common practice in reptile keeping, and not particularly well-regulated, it's very easy for pathogens to be introduced and spread quickly through a collection. You don't know where all of the reptiles in the pet store came from. Some might be from disreputable breeders and some might be WC imports bringing brand new pathogens into circulation.

The idea of letting them build up a natural immunity isn't really realistic because there's no way for their systems to prepare for whatever exotic bacterial infection or virus that might show up with your next new reptile.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

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Deborah hit it right on the nose across the board. While someone coming home from a pet store and taking a shower might be a bit out there, you have no way of knowing where the animals at the store have been. I avoid touching any animals they have while I'm there unless it looks good enough for me to seriously consider purchasing and even then when I get home I won't even go into the room my animals are in until I've washed and sanitized my hands and removed any outer layer of clothing (jacket, over shirt, etc). Not some quick little splash under the water, full on medical scrub. When I go to an expo, I carry my own hand sanitizer and any new animals go into their own room until they're clear for 90 days.

Quarantine is not a joke, either, unless you like spending lots of money on vet bills.

You want to prevent mites from over running your collection? Quarantine.
You want to keep RI from wiping out half your snakes? Quarantine.
Parasites? Quarantine.
Insert other communicable illness? Quarantine.

Are some things still going to manage to slip in? Yes, it is, but by practicing good quarantine habits you'll lower the impact on your collection.

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Originally Posted by Snake Judy

There's a few problems with this comparison. Dogs and cats are prone to communicable diseases and pests as well, but since we know so much more about them, treatments are more advanced. Many serious illnesses can be vaccinated against early in life. Not so with snakes. And unlike reptile breeders, dog owners don't typically house their pets together in large groups or trade them with keepers in other states or countries. When they do cross borders, they need an array of paperwork confirming their health. Because both of these things are common practice in reptile keeping, and not particularly well-regulated, it's very easy for pathogens to be introduced and spread quickly through a collection. You don't know where all of the reptiles in the pet store came from. Some might be from disreputable breeders and some might be WC imports bringing brand new pathogens into circulation.

The idea of letting them build up a natural immunity isn't really realistic because there's no way for their systems to prepare for whatever exotic bacterial infection or virus that might show up with your next new reptile.

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I absolutely agree, it is far to late for this. Google psdeudomonas aeruginosa in green tree pythons they will be a forum that pops up discussing disease in captive bread reptiles. This is the article that got me thinking

Touching yes i would 100 percent be very cautious. I am from Brooklyn Ny there are dirty pigeons and who knows what else every where you go. These are all potential hazards. There are life instances that are hard to miss. Now if i was feeding pigeons and they where flying all over me yes absolutly wash and wash good

I think it also depends on what kind of a collection you have. Do you have just a corn snake?

Then maybe you just wash your hands with some sanitizer and you're good to go.

Do you have 1000s of dollars worth of various reptiles?

Then you'd be darn right you aught to take every precaution necessary.

Here's the thing, yes vet bills for one snake are best avoided by taking precautions. However, am I going to tell someone new who's only supply line is the local pet store that their snakes are all going to die if they decide to buy bedding there? Or that they need to wear a face mask and rubber gloves to go shopping? No that's an easy way of convincing new people that reptiles are disease ridden and difficult to keep.

This is one of those advice given is based on level of keeper for me.

When I was younger I kept 14 different species of reptile and amphibians at a point, from a variety of sources, breeders, pet store, wild caught. I only ever quarantined maybe 2 or 3 of them. (of course this was before the whole extinction fungus that is infecting amphibians going on now). Most things that did end up dying died mostly because of husbandry mistakes made by a 12 year old.

For me the biggest and most important step to preventing disease in a collection is the selection of the animal. Properly examining the animal and the animals around it. Now in the internet age this becomes almost impossible. But its just my experience.

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Originally Posted by bulldog herp

I absolutely agree, it is far to late for this. Google psdeudomonas aeruginosa in green tree pythons they will be a forum that pops up discussing disease in captive bread reptiles. This is the article that got me thinking

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I checked it out and I get what you're saying. I do think exposure to a balanced level of bacteria in a well-maintained naturalistic/bioactive enclosure is likely to promote stronger immune systems and some resistance to common bacteria, but I don't think that this would negate the necessity for quarantine and other precautionary measures for the many reasons already stated. It's also likely to multiply your problems if not done properly.

The amount of quarantine you do depends on how at risk you consider your collection, and how tolerant you are of illness in your collection, and how tolerant you are of loss of your collection. The "fieldcraft" of isolation techniques being referred to here as quarantine are pretty universal across other medical/lab realms. The more virulent or deadly the pathogen, the more extreme the precautions.

I have two snakes - a regular ball, and a juvenile super pastel. 3, about to be 4 canines.. I dont go to reptile shows. I buy my feeders and supplies from a single source. I handle my adult before I handle my juvenile, but they are in separate cages in the same room. I've got more invested in equipment than I do in snakes, and while I enjoy the two snakes I have I will not be devastated if something unforseen happened to them. To be honest, we had the second snake tanked adjacent to the first snake before I became informed about the practice of quarantining new additions, so that ship had already sailed. Will consider it for a third addition if there is one. I dont have a snake room, we've incorporated our snake enclosure into a living space. We allow visitors to handle, but if they have other snakes themselves I would inquire about their collection's health. I handle ours at least twice a week, and part of that involves a head to tail exam for parasites or illness. I check the feeders for parasites before they go in the cage. I would consider my approach relaxed but informed, and vigilant. If I had 10 racks full of 3 gene breeders and their clutches, and this endeavor paid my bills, I'd probably be much more hyper vigilent in my approach.

Other people here are hard core herps and snakes are their passion. They LOVE what they do. They have collections that cost them tens of thousands to obtain and build, and likely would cost even more to replace (even though individual specimens are irreplaceable, behaviorally). They value their collection over the hassle of strict isolation techniques, and for them it is worth it. Separate rooms with sealed air systems, stripping down in the garage when coming from pet stores and ultra strict quarantine strike me as hypervigilant, but for those owners it is personally justified.

I suggest knowing the techniques and concepts of hygiene and husbandry, as cleanliness is the first step to preventing problems and disease transmission. Keep the tanks and substrates clean, and disinfect as part of your routine. Simply using soap and water with vigorous friction/scrub for 30 seconds is an effective handwashing technique that has been validated in healthcare for preventing transmission of infection. If you want to do a full 5 minute betadine or hibiclens scrub as if you were going into the OR, you can, but I feel thats overkill unless you ARE GOING INTO the OR. Everything you will be doing as a snake owner will fall under the "clean" portion of the spectrum, not the "sterile" end of the spectrum of cleanliness, so dont waste your time doing things that add 90% more effort with perhaps 1% more return unless you have an overwhelming reason to do so. If you are going to quarantine, do it right. Separate tanks, separate rooms, separate tongs, separate cleaning supplies. Perhaps even do your handling and maintenance on a different day than your regular collection. When done with your quarantine snakes, go change clothes, shower and wash your clothes that you were wearing. If you do all your snakes (established AND quarantines) on the same day, do everything with your established snakes first before messing with the quarantine snakes. Every step along the way go from clean places/tasks to less-clean places/tasks so that you aren't taking contaminants in the wrong direction. If you want to really take it to the next level you should wash your hands between handling ANY of your snakes.

Once you have a good understanding of the consensus of best (as well as exceptional) practices, adjust the implementation to suit your lifestyle, priorities and perceived value of your collection and investment.

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Originally Posted by Snake Judy

I checked it out and I get what you're saying. I do think exposure to a balanced level of bacteria in a well-maintained naturalistic/bioactive enclosure is likely to promote stronger immune systems and some resistance to common bacteria, but I don't think that this would negate the necessity for quarantine and other precautionary measures for the many reasons already stated. It's also likely to multiply your problems if not done properly.

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What you are advocating has a strong basis in human immunology. The joke is to prevent childhood allergies and boost immune systems is to give children puppies, let them play in the mud, and put them in a daycare where they get exposed to every cold virus known to man. BUT... exposure to deadly or virulent pathogens does not boost an immune system, rather its detrimental to the organism and can/does cause death. Thats why we vaccinate humans, to prevent death and disability from virulent common pathogens, like Flu, which kills thousands of very old, very young and very sick people every year. Thats why we dont advocate exposing people to HIV, hepatitis viruses, shigella, pseudomonas or vibrio to boost their immune systems - in the process of developing an immune response the host can experience eventual death or significant disability.

Most laypeople aren't in a position to culture and identify all the bacterial flora in their enclosures to determine a "balance", or cultivate and properly maintain such a balanced microbiome. As such, for the average lay owner you should focus on hygiene and clean husbandry first and foremost.

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Originally Posted by Doggtyred

What you are advocating has a strong basis in human immunology. The joke is to prevent childhood allergies and boost immune systems is to give children puppies, let them play in the mud, and put them in a daycare where they get exposed to every cold virus known to man. BUT... exposure to deadly or virulent pathogens does not boost an immune system, rather its detrimental to the organism and can/does cause death. Thats why we vaccinate humans, to prevent death and disability from virulent common pathogens, like Flu, which kills thousands of very old, very young and very sick people every year. Thats why we dont advocate exposing people to HIV, hepatitis viruses, shigella, pseudomonas or vibrio to boost their immune systems - in the process of developing an immune response the host can experience eventual death or significant disability.

Most laypeople aren't in a position to culture and identify all the bacterial flora in their enclosures to determine a "balance", or cultivate and properly maintain such a balanced microbiome. As such, for the average lay owner you should focus on hygiene and clean husbandry first and foremost.

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Agree, Polio, tetanus, etc are problems, and the best solution to some of these may be vaccines. However, I think Judy's theory has validity even if we don't have all the specifics nailed down. I was listening to a vet interviewed on HerpNationRadio several months ago (wish I could remember his name). His position seemed to be that snakes aren't sterile themselves; they carry most of these pathogens at low levels all the time. They get sick when one takes over, but the bacteria/virus wasn't necessairly new to the animal. That said, I still think quarantine and related practices are good habits; but, if snakes in an isolated collection fall ill, it may not be because something from outside snuck in.

Quarantine is a risk mitigation. Your quarantine process should be appropriate to your situation, your snakes, your goals and your budget. I had one ball python, then I bought 3. For me it would have been silly to quarantine 3 new snakes to keep them away from the one, especially when the one was not a super expensive snake. And in this situation I'd be doing a lot of rearranging and it'd be a lot of hassle to prevent a snake from something that there isn't a huge risk of anyway. At this point my biggest risk is a vet appointment and treatment for a few snakes. Now 5 years from now I'll hopefully have a collection that's worth a bit of money and is a considerable amount of snakes, at that point I will for sure have a rack across the house for new purchases and have a full quarantine process in place.

i follow the procedure from the second post in the quarantine stickie thread - http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...antine-process.


beyond that, i handle/feed/care for qt and my non-qt animals on different days.


i get some live feeders weekly and some supplies from a local mom and pop pet shop (that has a reptile area). i don't strip off my clothes, but sanitize and wash my hands well after. i've been to one reptile show and did the same afterwards. except for my newest snake, everyone will be outta qt a little after the new year. now that i have a small but some what i consider valuable snakes in my collection, i will probably strip and shower right after. Lol.

For my personal collection, I wash my hands between snakes, and use paper towels for cleaning to prevent any germ transfer. As of right now I'll admit my quarantine practice is kind of lax, but I plan on stepping it up as my collection grows. I believe that even for established collections, frequent hand sanitization between handling of animals is important.