Breeding Bee combos?

How come you never hear about people breeding multi gene bee combos together, such as a Queenbee and a Pewterbee? Is there ANYBODY out there with 1st hand experience or evidence of clutches produced? Inquiring minds want to know......:P

Well, I have a queenbee and next breeding season when she is up to size I am hoping to queen spins. Bee combos are just spiders added into the combo which is actually very common.

I wish I could help here but I do not deal with spiders it makes some real neat combos but has the wobble issue so I have not tried to breed any as of yet

People don't breed Spider x Spider because it's a dominant gene, so you can't get super spiders. It's like breeding a Pinstripe x Pinstripe. The same dominant genes aren't paired together too often. Also I believe the rumor that Spider x Spider is lethal scares people away. I didn't know it wasn't lethal until last year.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

People don't breed Spider x Spider because it's a dominant gene, so you can't get super spiders. It's like breeding a Pinstripe x Pinstripe. The same dominant genes aren't paired together too often. Also I believe the rumor that Spider x Spider is lethal scares people away. I didn't know it wasn't lethal until last year.

---

Spider x spider is only suspected to be lethal which is why they classify spider as an unproven dominant. There is no proof however of the spider x spider being lethal.

but clutches with eggs rotting around day 20. So no one ant to take a chance at a 25%possible lethal.

There is quite a bit to point at super spider being lethal, just nothing rock solid. champ x champ lethal, spider x champ lethal, and the spider x wobble morphs that get a more severe wobble. I don't think it would be illogical to assume spider x spider would be the absolute worst off of them all, given how it seems to be the most severe in the heterozygous form out of all the wobble morphs. Also scatter reports of more than expected slugs, a couple white snakes hatching and less than expect hatch rates, which I even experienced myself....

I did spider x spider last year, lost 1 out of 4 eggs partway through
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...Spider-results
I decided to keep my spider female and breed her to a spider morph every year for now on, just to keep adding clutch data. This year will be a hypo spinner :)

Also don't throw pin into this convo, both bhb and evan stahl have proved out super pins. I hope to do the same in a year or so, babies are growing up now from this clutch. 8 out of 8 eggs hatched with no issue.
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ake-super-pins

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

There is quite a bit to point at super spider being lethal, just nothing rock solid. champ x champ lethal, spider x champ lethal, and the spider x wobble morphs that get a more severe wobble. I don't think it would be illogical to assume spider x spider would be the absolute worst off of them all, given how it seems to be the most severe in the heterozygous form out of all the wobble morphs. Also scatter reports of more than expected slugs, a couple white snakes hatching and less than expect hatch rates, which I even experienced myself....

I did spider x spider last year, lost 1 out of 4 eggs partway through
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...Spider-results
I decided to keep my spider female and breed her to a spider morph every year for now on, just to keep adding clutch data. This year will be a hypo spinner :)

Also don't throw pin into this convo, both bhb and evan stahl have proved out super pins. I hope to do the same in a year or so, babies are growing up now from this clutch. 8 out of 8 eggs hatched with no issue.
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ake-super-pins

---

Like you said, I don't think it's explored enough to really say, but after talking to many breeders who breed Spider x Spider with no unusual results, I wouldn't be afraid to try it. I might do it this season. There was someone else on this site also doing some Spider x Spider breedings that I'm interested in seeing the results of. You have a link to "a couple white snakes hatching"? I thought it was only one that started the rumor.

If Pinstripe is co-dom people probably don't breed Pin x Pin too often because you can't tell visually that you've created the Super... Same with spider.

Every gene should have the potential to have a homozygous form, so I don't know why more people don't try to prove it out. I guess it's because of the lack of visual difference between heterozygous and homozygous forms in certain genes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

Like you said, I don't think it's explored enough to really say, but after talking to many breeders who breed Spider x Spider with no unusual results, I wouldn't be afraid to try it. I might do it this season. There was someone else on this site also doing some Spider x Spider breedings that I'm interested in seeing the results of. You have a link to "a couple white snakes hatching"? I thought it was only one that started the rumor.

If Pinstripe is co-dom people probably don't breed Pin x Pin too often because you can't tell visually that you've created the Super... Same with spider.

---

IMO if you look at what other wobble genes combos make, why would you expect a viable super spider? Again there is no hard proof, which is why I will keep breeding spider to spider every year to give more data. I love how this gene has been around for years but yet there is less data on it than just about everything else. I'll put on my tin foil hat and keep breeding them. :)

Pinstripe according to bhb and Evan is not co-dom, it is a true dominant gene. Which means it looks the same in heterozygous or homozygous form.

My pairing is kind of screwy to really classify it, all of them are 50% het hypo, which anyone will tell you can show through. Then I also have a dinker gene I am trying to make something happen with, so my pairing about the worst example of classifying pinstripe. Some look like normal pins and lemonblast, some have some high blushing, then some have ridiculously blushed out patterns. Bad clutch to classify a single gene. However I still can prove out super pins. Statistically o should have 2... We shall see in a few years.

I can link to one of the white snakes when I'm not on my phone, other one I saw I have never been able to find since I originally saw it.

here is the white snake from a killerbee x spider http://www.reptileradio.net/showthre...644#post775644 top of the thread also shows a bad egg from the bumblebee x spider clutch

Thanks! And why do people believe there's no homozygous form of certain morphs? Is there some exception? Shouldn't all genes have a homozygous form?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

Thanks! And why do people believe there's no homozygous form of certain morphs? Is there some exception? Shouldn't all genes have a homozygous form?

---

gene on the heterozygous sex chromosome (W in snakes) is about the only scenario I can think of and if that happened, only females could have the gene. Then there is also things like the desert, which the heterozygous females appear to be infertile. Which obviously makes it physically impossible to make a homozygous. Well maybe you still make one in a test tube? I donno.

But yes in theory every gene should have a homozygous, unless its a W sex-linked gene

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BCS

Well, I have a queenbee and next breeding season when she is up to size I am hoping to queen spins. Bee combos are just spiders added into the combo which is actually very common.

---

Yes, my Queenbee and my Pewterbee have locked 6 times so far this month. We will see what happens with this pairing come spring..... I just have not seen a single person yet talk about pairing ANY various bee combos.

I might be going a Bumblebee x Super Enchi Lesser Spider breeding, and maybe a Calibee x Super Enchi Lesser Spider, so we'll see what happens!

If anyone does any version of a spider x spider and gets eggs, please please please post your results. For a super common gene and a pairing that supposedly "happens all the time" there sure as heck isn't much data about it. all we are really looking for is how many slugs and good eggs, if any eggs go bad during the incubation, and your final count of spider and non spider.

I'm planning killer bee x spinnerblast next year if the spinnerblast is up to weight, I'll record my results.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

If anyone does any version of a spider x spider and gets eggs, please please please post your results. For a super common gene and a pairing that supposedly "happens all the time" there sure as heck isn't much data about it. all we are really looking for is how many slugs and good eggs, if any eggs go bad during the incubation, and your final count of spider and non spider.

---

If I decide to go ahead with the Spider breedings I'll definitely be posting, haha.

Surely there's a massive chance of wobble when you're pairing Bee combos together ??

I'm pairing my leopard butter bee with my spider female this season. So far he's not shown any interest in her, but hopefully he eventually gets the job done and I'll have a clutch to report!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zincubus

Surely there's a massive chance of wobble when you're pairing Bee combos together ??

---

Wobble is always present in every spider combo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

Wobble is always present in every spider combo.

---

What do you regard as a 'combo' ?

I have a Caramel Albino Spider which has no wobble whatsoever ...... I have no intention of breeding from it though .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zincubus

What do you regard as a 'combo' ?

I have a Caramel Albino Spider which has no wobble whatsoever ...... I have no intention of breeding from it though .

---

Every spider has the potential to wobble, doesn't matter if it is in a combo or not. When a ball python has the spider gene, it changes the pattern, but also changes them neurologically, it is more noticeable in some more than others, but the change still happens with the gene. You don't get one change without the other.

Your original question asked if breeding spider x spider would result in a massive chance of the wobble, the answer is no. It is the exact same chance. Here is why:

Male:	Spider
Female:	Spider
Percent	Fraction	Traits
25%	1/4	Homozygous Spider
50%	1/2	Spider
25%	1/4	Normal
View Results Page

normals obviously have no issues, the spiders made from spider x spider are still heterozygous spiders, there is no difference between them and one made from a spider x normal pairing. The homozygous spider is the elusive one.

Thank you guys for making this post more of a conversation then an argument. I'm glad that there are so many open minded breeders here. I paired my female killer bee with my lesser bee and on 21NOV she laid 6 good eggs, no slugs and all candled with strong veins.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12...234cab0c2f.jpg

Awesome, keep us updated on hatching. Would love to see pics of the babies :)

Update on my lesser bee X killer bee clutch. Out of the 6 good eggs, we lost 2. One on day 35 and another on day 42 (today is day 44). We did have an equipment malfunction right before the first one started to go bad and that was also when the 2nd one sunk in though it lasted a bit longer. I do believe that malfunction is the reason they died, not because of the pairing. I did dissect the 2nd one to turn it into a learning experience and if you wish I can post them here

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aLittleLessButter

I did dissect the 2nd one to turn it into a learning experience and if you wish I can post them here

---

details on the malfunction and a seperate thread with a graphic warning might be best, but im am interested

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

details on the malfunction and a seperate thread with a graphic warning might be best, but im am interested

---

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ARNING-GRAPHIC!

Thought this was an interesting write up http://www.herpnation.com/2016/01/20...-super-spider/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aLittleLessButter

Thought this was an interesting write up http://www.herpnation.com/2016/01/20...-super-spider/

---

Literally was just going to post that on my Bee breeding thread with almost the same caption. How are your eggs doing? When are they due to hatch again?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

Literally was just going to post that on my Bee breeding thread with almost the same caption. How are your eggs doing? When are they due to hatch again?

---

Today was day 62 and I decided to make a tiny cut in 3 of them since I wasn't seeing movement in them. They looked fully developed and healthy. Hard to tell with the tiny incision, but I believe I saw a queen bee, bumble bee and plesser. Didn't touch the last one. I want it to pip on its own

We have pippers!
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...ee42744039.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...1f6f18e42b.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aLittleLessButter

We have pippers!
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...ee42744039.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...1f6f18e42b.jpg

---

Oh my gossshh!! Soo cute!!

So far I see a bumblebee and a plesser

Here is the first bumble bee (left) next to what I'm thinking is a queen bee. Also the first one out of the egg is a plesserhttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...34762c5a9e.jpg
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...c932900ee8.jpg

Amazing plesser


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Wow, that's just a Pastel Lesser? Looks incredible

Thanks! Yeah she is just a normal plesser. I wish my camera could capture how bright she is http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...2cdbd6cfea.jpg

Everyone is out now :)
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...da3e9babea.jpg

Plesser, bumblebee, queenbee and .....pastel?
Looks super clean, lots of blushing and great black contrast. Nice looking babies!! Congratz!!

Enviado desde mi XT890 mediante Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rafacacho

Plesser, bumblebee, queenbee and .....pastel?
Looks super clean, lots of blushing and great black contrast. Nice looking babies!! Congratz!!

---

Yup pastel. I'm really pleased with how the pastel gene presented itself in this clutch, even in the single gene baby

I would consider keeping all of these beautiful babies... great job

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

I know 3 breeders here in canada that have produced those morphs 2 years in a row and I traded my super cinnamon for a mojave spider and the guy I traded it to made abunch of pewter bees which look super nice

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

Beautiful babies. Congrats!

I thought it would be interesting to add some information as to why neurological problems might be linked with Spider genes. You see, in other species, neurological problems can be linked to coloration as well. And what coloration is most often affected? White. Now, the link you posted said that Super Spiders are leus, which means that they too are white.
White is also lethal in other vertebrate species, or leads to abnormalities and defects. For a while problems with Leu Black Rat Snakes and bug-eyes was known as were issues with albino x albino Boa Constrictors. Enigma Leopard Geckos have neurological conditions along with their patterning.

The reason for the neurological effect in animals with lessened melanin is this:
Melanin is very important in helping animals in a variety of ways: it helps them regulate UV light from the sun, to thermoregulation, and in some species is linked with better immune system functions (such as in wild populations of big cats).
Melanin helps to protect animal's eyes from bright light and to help reflect the sun light away from the eye.
Melanin helps to absorb the warmth of the sun and so can assist in thermoregulation.

In Vertebrates, melanin is synthesized from the amino-acid tyrosine in vesicular organelles (melanosomes) of neural-crest derived cells called melanophores (or melanocytes). These interact with the endocrine, immune and nervous system.
For this reason, melanin is linked with many of the highly important functions of the brain and body and without its production or when its production is altered it can lead to more then a simple change in skin, fur, feather, scale, or eye color. It can also lead to changes in behavior and health.

For example, without melanin in the skin, thermoregulation, UV filtering and cancer protection is cut down, which can lead to issues in creatures that spend time in the sunlight. Wild animals also are prone to predation, but as pets this is not a problem.
Without melanin in the eyes then the retinofugal optic fibers are misrouted and can lead to crossed eyes (as seen in Siamese cats). Any bright lighting leads to sensitivity and pain and visual acuity is decreased due to light scattering with-in the eye. Sight is also reduced due to foveal hypoplasia and possible light-induced retinal damage.
Nystagmus (irregular rapid movement of the eye) can be seen in albinos, Amblyopia (trouble seeing because of poor transmission to the brain), and optic nerve hypoplasia (underdevelopment of the optic nerve).

Melanocytes are found in the central nervous system, including areas of the brain responisble for mood and responses to stress. Albino or white animals often have behaviors changes with coloration changes. Small amounts of white are linked to calmer, tamer species (which is why many animals selected for tame behavior will often developed piebalding with-in only a few generations). However, large amounts of white (as soon in some pinto horses and dalmatian dogs) is linked with stress, nervousness and aggression.
Melanocytes are found in the inner ear and impaired migration of these melanocyes can lead to deafness in many white animals in one or both ears (to varying degrees). Blue-eyed White Cats, white-faced ferrets (silvers, black-eyed whites, pandas, ect), many pied dogs (including dalmations) all have a risk of being born deaf.
There is also a risk of abnormalities in the skull and body shape its self, as seen in wardy ferrets (those suffering from waardenburgs syndrome). Wardy ferrets often have issues with sight, hearing, balance and coordination, and may even be mentally retarded.
Some forms of white can also be lethal (known as Lethal White). While it isn't technically deadly, when two merle dogs are bred together their puppies are often blind and deaf and many breeders will put them down at birth. This is called Double Merle.
Lethal White foals will usually die soon after birth and are produced in Pinto horses when a foal has too much white on them.
Lethal forms of spotting are seen in Gerbils, Mice, Rats, Dwarf Hamsters, and Syrian Hamsters and if two copies of said gene are put together then the babies are likely to die or be born without eyes.

Now, don't get me wrong, I love white animals and all the color variations. Its awesome. I've just been doing a lot of research on which color varieties are linked with health problems and which aren't, so I can select an animal that I know will live without complications. I tried to avoid wardy ferrets, but because the breeders and sellers don't tell you the truth I ended up with two. Both were far more susceptible to cancer and we had both for under a year before loosing them. The two that didn't have wardys were far healthier and didn't show signs of cancer, malformed skull, coordination and muscle problems, ect.

I hope this helps explain some things. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GitaBooks

And what coloration is most often affected? White.

---

This is vey interesting information, but the wobble is present in all Spider morphs. Even basic Spider Ball Pythons, some of which have very little white at all.

Yea my friends has like no white what's soo ever on his spider and on mine it's half way up lol

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

I don't think the issue with the spider gene has correlation to the white color and it's not leucistic. In fact I believe the only issue that regularly occurs in all white ball pythons is the occasional bug eyes in super lessers. The white spider babies are under developed and color is the last thing to come in so it would make sense that a baby that died in the egg was all white. Even if it were to hatch out alive and white we don't know enough to claim that is what the super form looks like. I think there was only one case of the white snake being alive at hatching time. The others died in the egg

Spiders aren't white, but I have noticed that on each one the top of the head is lighter then on a normal ball, like they have a cap of lighter coloration on their skull. Perhaps this lowered amount of melanin could be a reason for the neurological condition.

However, I could be wrong, I just thought I would mention it because waardenburg's shows similar features in the varying degree that the animals are affected (some only a little and some severely), that no matter what the affected "morph" cannot be bred out of the condition (since it is actually caused by the color and not just linked to it) and how it affects the coordination, balance, ect of the animal. We can't really know if it affects hearing like in other waardys because snakes don't have ears. :)

Thank you for responding, I want to learn all I can and every bit helps.

Just my opinion based on antidotal experience, but I don't think the neurological issues in the Spider morph are related to color. We have hundreds of lighter colored morphs that exhibit none of the wobble and dinginess found in the Spider lines.