Poll: UTH, RHP, or RHP+UTH

This is is mainly for those with PVC cages, but all input is welcome.

After some reading on here, I ordered a T-8 with a Pro-Products RHP and flex watt. When I called Bob to order the RHP and told him what I planned on using, he tried to talk me out of the flex watt and talked about fires and the fact they are not UL listed so I would have no insurance coverage, that belly heat is unnatural, etc. I thanked him for his input and took it for what it was worth. He also said to set up the RHP with the thermostat probe near the surface on the cold side of the cage.

I have read various opinions on the use of flex watt and rhp's and their set up. But I would like to get a better consensus of what everyone uses and why or why not. My ambient temps In the winter will need an assist from an RHP, but in the summer, I think I could get away with just flex watt. But, if I go RHP only, I can get away with only using one Herpstat 2 instead of having to buy another thermostat.

So so what say you wise sages of BP.net?

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Originally Posted by bproffer

This is is mainly for those with PVC cages, but all input is welcome.

After some reading on here, I ordered a T-8 with a Pro-Products RHP and flex watt. When I called Bob to order the RHP and told him what I planned on using, he tried to talk me out of the flex watt and talked about fires and the fact they are not UL listed so I would have no insurance coverage, that belly heat is unnatural, etc. I thanked him for his input and took it for what it was worth. He also said to set up the RHP with the thermostat probe near the surface on the cold side of the cage.

I have read various opinions on the use of flex watt and rhp's and their set up. But I would like to get a better consensus of what everyone uses and why or why not. My ambient temps In the winter will need an assist from an RHP, but in the summer, I think I could get away with just flex watt. But, if I go RHP only, I can get away with only using one Herpstat 2 instead of having to buy another thermostat.

So so what say you wise sages of BP.net?

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I'm running just a RHP in my T8 and its working great and my BP is doing extremely well in it so take it for what it's worth. I will say I tried setting my thermostat like he suggested on the cold side and I couldn't get my cages heat right. I moved my probe to hot side and got it dialed in about perfect. I'm using a Herpstat 1.

My snake room is warmer than the rest of the house so I can get away with either belly heat or an RHP. The temperature in the rest of the house can swing, and while it's usually just a few degrees cooler than the snake room, in the dead of winter it can drop into the mid-60's if the outside temp goes below 20*F (stupid heat pumps...). So, enclosures not in the snake room have an RHP for ambient temps + under-tank heat for the hot basking spot.

I had both installed on my pvc cages because of how cold my house runs in the winter and to give me more options. That way if one heat or the other quits I'm ok. I live in northern MN though. This winter I decided it would be easier to heat the room so got an oil filled radiator to keep the room at 78. For my short tails this plus uth is perfect since they prefer lower temps, for my ball and boas the rhp is heavier used to get temps up. A rhp placed on the top of the cage will heat up the cage above it quite a bit also and since I have stacks of cages with different heat levels I have to keep that in mind and decide who goes where. You could always get both and rotate which is in use depending on the season.

The BEST option is what works for YOU.

I will not argue or debate with anybody who has a system that is, or has been working for them. I can only say what I am using successfully.

I have used lights, and under tank heat. I personally don't care for lights and as soon as I was using high quality plastic enclosures for all of the snake here they were out!

I use Pro-Products RHPs and have them set up the way the manufacturer advised. (Probe on cool side floor level) I have had zero issues and find about a 10 degree difference between warm and cool sides.

No matter what you use, the thermostat makes the system IMO. Even with lights, the Herpstat line worked like a charm.

I do the same as GoingPostal, I also heat the room with a space heater. It is a very large water heat unit. I don't even know if they are made any longer.

I think if you use quality products your chances of anything going wrong are minimal. I don't follow house fire reports, but I don't hear any stories on the news stating "The fire started in a reptile room".

I love the RHPs and find them easy to use once installed.

Using both will never hurt if needed in your situation.

Find your method and go for it!

Like Gio mentioned, its what works best for you. There is no best method. What I usually say is if your room is 75F+ then a heat tape will work good. If you room is colder than 75F then you will need a RHP. I have used both and I personally prefer heat tape.

I don't think anyone's mentioned, but obviously the species of snake you have is important too. If it's arboreal, the flexwatt won't do squat for you.

I agree in use what works for you, but in my T8s I use only a Pro Heat RHP with probe on cool side (I had it on hot side but it seemed to create a lot of temp fluctuation). My room temp is in upper 60s.


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Originally Posted by BPGator

I don't think anyone's mentioned, but obviously the species of snake you have is important too....

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Bingo! I voted UTH, but I'm keeping mostly colubrids that don't need super-warm cages, AND I keep my house well-regulated year-round via thermostat. A few
of my snakes enjoy extra overhead warmth but I don't use RHP for that. Nothing against RHP, just doing what works for me & my animals.

So for sure you have to take into account the "big picture": what you're keeping...what kind of cage and whether or not it's insulated..what your home or snake
-room conditions are, etc.

I will add that I've safely used Flexwatt for over 3 decades and without any safety issues or malfunctions...I'm pretty sure that the OP's source might have been
pitching RHP with profit in mind...;) As for it not being UL-listed, bear in mind that Flexwatt was originally created NOT for herps but for warming plant roots
in commercial nurseries...and we herp-keepers latched onto using it & have yet to 'give it back'. :rofl: Safety comes down to following the directions! (Requires a
little ventilation so it doesn't over-heat, it should be "regulated", & don't install on metal shelves or using metal tape, as it's not super-insulated.)

I've been using solely UTH's for 15+ years for snakes and never had any issues.

However, I'm about to order some PVC cages now that I have my own place and don't have to answer to my parents about my bizarre spending choices and use of space, lol. And when I do, I'm gonna have RHP's installed as well as slots for UTH. Just so I have options. I'd rather have something and not use it than not have it and need it.

Soooooo

I've heard on the grapevine that there may be cause for concern as regards the heating of plastic rub/rubs wether it's UTH or heat /ceramic bulbs!?!?!

The suggestion is ....

Plastic when heated to a certain level will always release VOC which have apparently been linked with Respiratory Tract Infections ( more commonly known as RI ) in snakes and other reptiles ..

Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs) are extremely hazardous. The EPA explains VOCs, and the dangers they pose to our health. According to the EPA, VOCs cause eye, nose and throat irritation, frequent headaches, nausea, and can also damage the liver, kidney and central nervous system .


Any thoughts , ideas , concerns or information on this topic ??

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Soooooo

I've heard on the grapevine that there may be cause for concern as regards the heating of plastic rub/rubs wether it's UTH or heat /ceramic bulbs!?!?!

The suggestion is ....

Plastic when heated to a certain level will always release VOC which have apparently been linked with Respiratory Tract Infections ( more commonly known as RI ) in snakes and other reptiles ..

Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs) are extremely hazardous. The EPA explains VOCs, and the dangers they pose to our health. According to the EPA, VOCs cause eye, nose and throat irritation, frequent headaches, nausea, and can also damage the liver, kidney and central nervous system .


Any thoughts , ideas , concerns or information on this topic ??

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My question would be at what temperature does release of VOCs start in the different types of plastics. I’m guessing it’s higher than 90 degrees. Definitely worth looking into.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Soooooo

I've heard on the grapevine that there may be cause for concern as regards the heating of plastic rub/rubs wether it's UTH or heat /ceramic bulbs!?!?!

The suggestion is ....

Plastic when heated to a certain level will always release VOC which have apparently been linked with Respiratory Tract Infections ( more commonly known as RI ) in snakes and other reptiles ..

Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs) are extremely hazardous. The EPA explains VOCs, and the dangers they pose to our health. According to the EPA, VOCs cause eye, nose and throat irritation, frequent headaches, nausea, and can also damage the liver, kidney and central nervous system .


Any thoughts , ideas , concerns or information on this topic ??

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I'm SO glad you brought that up. I am not a fan of PVC/plastic cages for that very reason- I don't trust the health & safety (mine OR my snakes) to constantly
heated plastics, no matter how "convenient" they may seem to be. Granted, I'm not a BP-keeper either, so glass tanks are very suitable for my snakes (mostly
colubrids) but you can also make glass tanks "work" for BPs/ & boids in general. Even more concerning to me has been the use of plastic storage bins that were
NEVER designed for living creatures (unlike the harder plastic cages) & which off-gas to the extent that is obvious even to me (a mere human) at normal room
temperatures, so I hate to think about enclosed snakes with a far better sense of smell & more importantly, a less-developed immune system & a smaller, more
fragile body, that cannot escape & are "serving a life sentence".

There have been a few threads about snakes obsessed with the air vents in their cages, & while we cannot prove it, it creeps me out on their behalf to think that
this may be what's going on. Many younger members keeping snakes have never lived in a world where plastics aren't literally everywhere, but I prefer to error
on the side of caution. Illnesses like cancer are not usually just a simple exposure but the exposure to more unhealthy things over time...and the more you can
minimize such exposure the better off you are (-not to mention the environment). Call me chicken if you like, but I think someday people will look back on this
era & say "what were you thinking!?" Proof will be a long-time coming though...it's hard enough to get funding for research on human health, let alone snakes.
I think we need to rely on common sense & apply what we do know to come up with the best methods for our non-human friends.

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Originally Posted by Jbabycsx

My question would be at what temperature does release of VOCs start in the different types of plastics. I’m guessing it’s higher than 90 degrees. Definitely worth looking into...

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Have you ever brought home a plastic storage container? If you & I can smell it, it's off-gassing VOCs. Plastics are pretty much ALL very toxic, & no, you don't have
to go above 90* for this to happen. The softer plastics (like storage bins are made from) are probably the worst, but you have to remember that ALL plastics degrade
over time. The longer they are exposed to heat, the faster that happens. That's why the plastic "food-safe" (HDPE) containers that you microwave some frozen foods
in all say "do NOT re-use"...after one use, they are breaking down & allowing unhealthy chemical exposure in our food. So what do you think happens in a plastic cage
that is heated 24/7?

Those who manufacture plastics want to sell their products to the most people & for the most profits. Don't expect them to release what they most certainly know about
health hazards. :rolleyes: But you might ask who in government they've paid off to look the other way & bury the studies...:rolleyes:

I think typically the talk of VOC's comes into question at VERY high temperatures....beyond what is standard with UTH/Flex or any source of overhead heat. All plastics outgas, just at a different rate and temperature speeds it up. Yeah, PVC is one of the worst ones though....still doesn't stop all the water in a brand new house from flowing to your faucet in a PVC pex line. Doesn't stop the outgassing from a plastic water bottle into your actual water. Doesn't stop outgassing via a tupperware container into your food. You're typing on an injection molded keyboard right now most likely.

You can't escape it.

Personally, I'm not too worried about it however. I'm a toolmaker/cnc programmer...which branches into two main categories: Plastic injection molds and stamping dies.

I know a LOT of mold makers, and I know a lot of injection press operators who are around high temperature melting plastic for 12 hours a day and have done so for 10,20,30 and sometimes even 40 years without any respiratory/health issues whatsoever. OSHA doesn't mess around these days, if there's even a QUESTION as to the health effects of a certain substance....you're wearing a mask of some sorts. Doesn't need to be a conspiracy at every corner, and you can find a million scare articles via Google. ....but everyone is exposed to a boatload of plastic every day that outgasses and so far there are no studies that link exposure to reduced life expectancy of any kind in humans OR animals. Just your typical health scare articles that you can't look away from.

Using plastic water bowls? Plastic plants? Plastic hides?....think of how many plastic items you're sitting near right now. Quite a few.

My experience with PVC enclosures is that an RHP alone is sufficient. I started off with both an RHP and a UTH, both regulated by a Herpstat 2, but eventually found that the UTH never went on. The RHP was doing all the work and created a perfect hot spot on the surface of the substrate.

I live in South Eastern Mass, so the ambient temp in my house can get down as low as 65 F in winter. In fact, just did a few days ago. The PVC enclosures had no issue. There was a slight drop in temp, but it seems to have been temporary because when I looked everything was normal.

Those RHPs from Pro-Panel are excellent. You're going to love it.

I wish I could do tubs with just a UTH, but like I said, my house gets too cold.

Just tied up the vote for the UTH'ers. Go team!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Have you ever brought home a plastic storage container? If you & I can smell it, it's off-gassing VOCs. Plastics are pretty much ALL very toxic, & no, you don't have
to go above 90* for this to happen. The softer plastics (like storage bins are made from) are probably the worst, but you have to remember that ALL plastics degrade
over time. The longer they are exposed to heat, the faster that happens. That's why the plastic "food-safe" (HDPE) containers that you microwave some frozen foods
in all say "do NOT re-use"...after one use, they are breaking down & allowing unhealthy chemical exposure in our food. So what do you think happens in a plastic cage
that is heated 24/7?

Those who manufacture plastics want to sell their products to the most people & for the most profits. Don't expect them to release what they most certainly know about
health hazards. :rolleyes: But you might ask who in government they've paid off to look the other way & bury the studies...:rolleyes:

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I have one rule in life that applies here. I don’t trust anything the government tells me. It’s not a coincidence that with all these “technological advances” we are also seeing cancer rates at higher levels than ever before. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if they knew it caused health issues.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jbabycsx

I have one rule in life that applies here. I don’t trust anything the government tells me. It’s not a coincidence that with all these “technological advances” we are also seeing cancer rates at higher levels than ever before. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if they knew it caused health issues.


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That being said, I use both UTH and RHP in my glass tank and UTH in my rack.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by KevinK

I think typically the talk of VOC's comes into question at VERY high temperatures....beyond what is standard with UTH/Flex or any source of overhead heat. All plastics outgas, just at a different rate and temperature speeds it up. Yeah, PVC is one of the worst ones though....still doesn't stop all the water in a brand new house from flowing to your faucet in a PVC pex line. Doesn't stop the outgassing from a plastic water bottle into your actual water. Doesn't stop outgassing via a tupperware container into your food. You're typing on an injection molded keyboard right now most likely.

You can't escape it.

Personally, I'm not too worried about it however. I'm a toolmaker/cnc programmer...which branches into two main categories: Plastic injection molds and stamping dies.

I know a LOT of mold makers, and I know a lot of injection press operators who are around high temperature melting plastic for 12 hours a day and have done so for 10,20,30 and sometimes even 40 years without any respiratory/health issues whatsoever. OSHA doesn't mess around these days, if there's even a QUESTION as to the health effects of a certain substance....you're wearing a mask of some sorts. Doesn't need to be a conspiracy at every corner, and you can find a million scare articles via Google. ....but everyone is exposed to a boatload of plastic every day that outgasses and so far there are no studies that link exposure to reduced life expectancy of any kind in humans OR animals. Just your typical health scare articles that you can't look away from.

Using plastic water bowls? Plastic plants? Plastic hides?....think of how many plastic items you're sitting near right now. Quite a few.

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Sooo apparently..

Every plastic mix releases VOCs at differing temps, some may remain inert to the average temps that we use, some may not. Some keepers may use higher temps than others and those that use systems in which have small or large heated areas, thus causing heated spots over that area in contact to or in close proximity to the plastic itself could be at higher risk.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jbabycsx

My question would be at what temperature does release of VOCs start in the different types of plastics. I’m guessing it’s higher than 90 degrees. Definitely worth looking into.


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Sadly .. maybe lower than the temps some of us use ..


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jbabycsx

I have one rule in life that applies here. I don’t trust anything the government tells me. It’s not a coincidence that with all these “technological advances” we are also seeing cancer rates at higher levels than ever before. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if they knew it caused health issues.


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Like when everyone knew about the dangers of smoking cigarettes all those years ago ?


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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Like when everyone knew about the dangers of smoking cigarettes all those years ago ?


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Exactly. But the taxes collected on those cigarettes outweighs the value of human life in the eyes of government.


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I use a heat panel in conjunction with heat tape. Both on the hot side. All my heating devices are controlled with Herpstat thermostats. I think it really matters where you live. I live in Alberta, Canada and the winters here get cold. Heat tape doesn't do much for ambient temps so I have no choice but to heat the objects in my enclosure with the heat panel which heats the air. If i had a dedicated snake room that I could heat to the proper temp for ball pythons I would ditch the heat panels and just use heat tape.

Unless your house stays at a consisnt 75-80 degrees all year or you have a dedicated snake room you can heat separately I think a RDP is needed with heat tape. This is what worked for me.

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Originally Posted by Jbabycsx

Exactly. But the taxes collected on those cigarettes outweighs the value of human life in the eyes of government.


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To be fair everyone now is aware of the health effects. If they’re dumb enough to still smoke that’s on them.


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