super blackpastel/cinny, bel???

ive been looking all around and im just curious if there is a super cinny (all black) bel made with either of the combos so like cinny/lesser x cinny/mojave and hitting super of both. i plan on trying for it either way.

Super Cinnys and Super Black Pastels come from Cinny x Cinny and Black Pastel x Black Pastel respectively....Or the 8-Ball Cinny x Black Pastel. As far as I know, those are the only black supers, although I don't think you can count the 8-Ball as a super. Those 3 are what my daughter refers to as Anti-BELs. A true BEL or white snake is a Leucistic with either blue or black eyes and come from snakes with the BEL complex. Mojaves, Lessers, Mystics, and Fires fall into this category.

Dave

I think the question that ilovemyherps is asking has anyone produced a double super? Where it's both super cinny and super mojave.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oh, well in that case I'm pretty sure that breeding a Super Cinny to Super Mojave just gets you a Cinnamon Mojave/Savannah 100% of the time. I don't think it's possible to double up on the alleles like that to produce a 2xSuper. At least that's what my punnet squares and what I remember of mendelian genetics tell me.

EDIT TO ADD: But I could be wrong. There are some actually geneticists on the forum. Perhaps they'll chime in.

Dave

Breeding a cinnamon mojave with another cinnamon mojave will give you a small chance to produce a double super. You can obviously change those morphs depending on the desired result.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dave Green

Breeding a cinnamon mojave with another cinnamon mojave will give you a small chance to produce a double super. You can obviously change those morphs depending on the desired result.

---

Now this is exactly why I hang out here. I get to learn!

Dave

hmmmm sounds interesting, what i've noticed in life is that everything happens once and follows after that action so a double super PROBABLY can happen you just need that 1 snake to do that and start something new...what can i say I'm a very optimistic guy..:D

I know there are people who are trying to make the super cinny bel but it is not on wbp as of yet so if anyone has made it they have kept it quiet

Wouldn't a super cinny bel just make something that looks like a black Eyed lucistic?

there is alot of speculation on what the super cinny bel would look like
some people say it will be grey some say it will be white alot of people think it will remove the spotting
thus leaving a grey snake
this is a super cinny lesser courtesy of world of ball pythons[IMG]http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...psqvxjyns2.jpg[/IMG]

Theoretically, just looking at the genetics, the Super Cinny Lesser is gray because it does not have the homozygous leucistic genes, just a heterozygous form. A homozygous leucistic is incapable of having color or pattern.

Also fire is mentioned as a leucistic gene, and it is not. It does not create BELs when mixed with the common leucistic genes and does not create a 100% white snake in it's own homozygous form.

Fire is a leucistic gene, it is how you make a BLACK eyed luecistic, there is BLUE eyed luecistic group, and the BLACK eyed luecistic group. NO they are not "compatible" between the 2 groups. You can have a a pair of Fire Mojaves / Fire Lessers and can make both blue and black eyed luecistic. As far as the original post, I believe luecistic is stronger than any other gene set and will mask nearly any other genetics at play

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BigJay

Fire is a leucistic gene, it is how you make a BLACK eyed luecistic, there is BLUE eyed luecistic group, and the BLACK eyed luecistic group. NO they are not "compatible" between the 2 groups. You can have a a pair of Fire Mojaves / Fire Lessers and can make both blue and black eyed luecistic. As far as the original post, I believe luecistic is stronger than any other gene set and will mask nearly any other genetics at play

---

The super fire may be called the black eyed leucistic by many in this hobby, but by definition, it is not genetically a leucistic gene from all evidence I've seen. We could only say for sure if we had a normal, a fire and a super fire all genetically mapped. But they have significantly too much color and patterning typically to be a true leucistic gene. To be Leucistic by definition it must be non-melanoid, non-albino and non-axanthic. The presence of coloration along the back in many if not the majority of super fires therefore means it's technically a piebald type gene, where sections of coloration are completely stripped, and the sections remaining have the fire coloration. And no, I'm not suggesting fire is a compatible gene with the morph we know as Piebald or pied, it is clearly on a separate allele, but they both can create a genetic piebald effect in homozygous form.

FYI, an allele is defined as "One of the alternative versions of a gene at a given location (locus) along a chromosome." (http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/glossary=allele) In other words, alleles are compatible genes.

IMO, as fire, piebald, and lesser are not alleles, calling fire a piebald type gene is no more helpful than calling it a leucistic type gene.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FranklinMorphs

. A homozygous leucistic is incapable of having color or pattern.

---

Not totaly true tho as leucistic still have patterns, you just only can see them under black light. I pesonaly think that it would be a off white snake more muddy than the super mojave no where near as bright as the mojavexlesser but that is just my opinion and worth alot less than fact

Some bel combos don't even need a black light. You can see the pattern on a super bamboo

You guys are arguing what the hobby calls Leucistic vs what science calls Leucistic. Completely different things.