Is live feeding really that bad?

I understand that mice, rats, rabbits, prey will fight back if an animal is after it. I would too if someone tried to strangle me. But I see all these articles and info that you shouldn't feed your snake live prey, or it's preferred that you don't feed them live. And their excuses seem awfully extreme. "The prey may eventually turn on the snake and kill it." I can see larger prey like rabbits maybe kicking or clawing a bit but if anything they're terrified. The prey should only be as big as the largest part of the snakes body and I'm sure any good person taking care of a snake would remove the mouse, rat, rabbit, etc, if ti was causing problems. I can see that some claws can leave some scars but snakes in the wild still live a decent lifespan and I'm sure they get scuffed but. Maybe not by their prey, simply because prey isn't usually in a confined space with the predator but other hazards can happen and they live through it. I'm expecting if a snake gets clawed or bit by it's food, it's nothing a little dilated antibiotic cleanser can't handle. And how often does prey really attack their predator? Especially with smaller snakes like a young ball python or cornsnake - I don't think mice and rats want to go after them that much.

But I tried my first live feeding today with a small albino mouse meant for being fed to animals like snakes. My snake is a bit stupid when it comes to actual hunting but she struck it and bite it on the head and then constricted it. I can tell the mouse was wriggling but she had it tight. The only thing the mouse wanted to bite was me when I picked it up by the tail.

I'm hoping not to make this a habit, it's just the frozen mice I've been having issues with because first, my snake seems into the frozen prey but something is turning her off. It's really a hassle to keep the mouse warm when your snake is taking its sweet time. I know that she's hungry but from yesterday when I tried to feed her she struck at the mouse but missed. It scared me so I dropped it and I think it landed on her head and spooked her so I believe that's what got her to not want it anymore. I hear that snakes sometimes like scared of the prey. But I knew she was hungry, she was peeking out of her hiding spots, exploring her terrarium when she usually hides and yeah, she was hungry. It took her about ten minutes to lay on the first strike that missed but I think it's probably the weird smell of the frozen mouse, the temperature, the fact that my hand is there, all of that.

But there was a local pet store who sold mice that can be fed to pets, no chemicals or weird medicines. And we took a small one and eventually after twenty minutes of my snake being stupid she finally got it. She gets way too close to her prey to strike because she's only been fed frozen. And when she gets too close the mouse runs.

But yeah, if you don't want to read all that: Is live feeding really that bad?

No, it's really not that bad as long as you're responsible about it and don't leave prey items in the tub/tank. I think you'll find there's quite a few live feeders on here. I feed F/T, but only for the convenience of keeping my snakes food in the freezer.

I think the idea freaks people out and it's turned into a big thing, but there's nothing wrong with a responsible keeper feeding their animals live prey.

As long as you don't leave the live prey with your animal unattended there's not much of a danger in it. Personally I just can't get comfortable with the idea that I caused an animal to suffer at all, even if it's a relatively quick death. Just my :twocents:

I have been feeding live for a long time and only once has my snake been bitten by a live ASF rat It drew a tiny bit of blood but it healed immediately and there is no scar. If I didn't tell you, you would have no clue. The bite was my fault really. The snake I fed live to has been on F/T for a year. I ran out of frozen and only had live available. It was the only time she was offered live prey. She hasn't had live since though, but it is not because I am afraid, it is because I prefer frozen (they smell less and leave less of a mess (poop and pee in the enclosure)).

Is isn't bottom line dangerous, it is riskier if you do not know what you are doing. Making sure the prey is well fed before being fed off, and checking 10 minutes after the prey was offered. If things are fine but the prey is still alive, check again in another 10 minutes. If the prey is still alive, remove it. By that time its obvious that the snake is not hungry. If you have a glass enclosure, watching the whole process wouldn't do any harm either.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Over the last few years I have roughly fed 25000 live preys to my adults and old backs (not counting any animal that I have hatched and sold) and I never experienced issues, this is not luck many other are doing the same with identical results.

Sure here and there for the past decade (since forums have gained popularity) you will see an horrible picture pop up however this type of picture does not reflect live feeding but IRRESPONSIBILITY. (Someone might even post one this very thread to try to make a point :rolleyes:)

Remember the majority of what you hear regarding live feeding is based on hearsay and rarely actual experience.

Live feeding is about being knowledgeable and being responsible.

Here are a few important things

If you buy your feeders, feed them and give them water prior to feeding (allow 2 to 4 hours before feeding them off)

Leave the rodents nearby your snake enclosure, scenting will entice the snake to eat.

Do not feed an oversize prey even the biggest BP does not need anything bigger than a small/medium rat. Adult male will do well with a small rat.

Do not stress the prey, do not taser or knock out the the prey.

Feed your snake inside it's enclosure, monitor feeding and remove the prey if not eaten within 15 min


*Note: I am not pro live I feed F/T to my Colubrids and I keep a handful of BP on F/T as well for when I produce too many rats.

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Wrote that recently in another thread.

Sent from my SM-T320 using Tapatalk

http://i.imgur.com/9BmxpQc.png

"Really that bad for whom?," I think is the question.

You can find some horrible photos out there of snakes who became the prey for a hungry mouse. If you never leave a snake alone with live prey, that won't won't happen to your snake.

Death by constriction is fast. Based on videos of both, It looks faster than the CO2 method. Nevertheless, one of my hatchlings took its pinky last week without first constricting it. The poor mouse just went down live and crying. I felt sad for it.

People in the modern world have become ignorant of the Facts of Life.

Beating a dead hore that the search bad can really revive. :bolt:

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Originally Posted by Nixon

My snake is a bit stupid when it comes to actual hunting

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No she's not.

Your snake is the product of 70 million years of evolution with two of it's primary functions being breeding and eating small rodents/birds. Your snake knows perfectly well what she's doing when it comes to finding, killing, and eating food.

It seemed to me that a few years ago folks were very intolerant of the live feeders. If a "frozen" found out that you fed live you were really ganged up on harshly by more "frozens".

Then when more "live" came out and defended and educated, the "frozens" backed off.

Now there is a civil mutual understanding.

Having experienced both, I understand both sides and accept both as viable feeding options, if done correctly.


http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10...0cfa350114.jpg

Two year old Coastal Carpet, Mack The Knife.

I feed live, and watch carefully with the tongs ready to intervene. even still, a few of my snakes have scars from rat bites where I was unable to get the tongs in to prevent such actions.

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Originally Posted by Reinz

...Now there is a civil mutual understanding.

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for the most part. like any "debate" there will always be those who believe their way is the right way and that is that. This topic will continue to arise as newcomers enter the hobby and are exposed to adamant proponents of one method or another. The bottom line will always be this; IRRESPONSIBLE live feeding really is that bad, as is any other IRRESPONSIBLE husbandry practice. Fortunately, when this topic arises here on bp.net, we tend to get informed and intelligent responses from experienced keepers that outline the proper practices for live feeding rather than blustering tirades from extremist on either side of the fence. the community's willingness to educate rather than lecture (even on a topic that just won't go away) is what makes this site such a valuable resource to newcomers to our hobby.

Still can't understand anyone feeding live . I'd feel so bad for the rodent so it won't be happening plus I've heard reports of mice age rats crying for ages whilst they're being constricted ( supposedly sounds like a human baby crying !) . Also I care far too much for my precious snakes to rusk them being bitten or scratched causing infections or worse and scarring . Check out the thousands of online photos of bitten / scratched snakes . Many lose an eye . Why on earth take the risk when you can defrost and simply heat up for ten seconds with a hair dryer ..

Just my take on things ..

People have been feeding live as long as they've been keeping reptiles - do it right, do it responsibly, and you should be fine. What's relatively new to the hobby are these big frozen rodent suppliers that ship product directly to your door. In the past, if you wanted to feed your reptiles, you basically needed someone local supplying prey items or you had to breed/collect them yourself. Feeding f/t is more convenient than it's ever been but that doesn't automatically make it the righteous choice. When mass production of a living creature is the name of the game, you're going to find your fair share of appalling animal treatment and living conditions. Another thing is the ever growing popularity of keeping reptiles as pets - which is a positive overall but there will always be that percentage of folks who just shouldn't own a pet, much less one that strikes fear and loathing in the majority. With the increase in keepers you also get an increasing number of bad eggs in the bunch who seem to do their darndest to shed a bad light on the hobby overall. Which leads me to probably the biggest, and definitely the most recent, addition of social media - everyone is an expert, everyone is right, everything is true.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Still can't understand anyone feeding live . I'd feel so bad for the rodent so it won't be happening plus I've heard reports of mice age rats crying for ages whilst they're being constricted ( supposedly sounds like a human baby crying !) . Also I care far too much for my precious snakes to rusk them being bitten or scratched causing infections or worse and scarring . Check out the thousands of online photos of bitten / scratched snakes . Many lose an eye . Why on earth take the risk when you can defrost and simply heat up for ten seconds with a hair dryer ..

Just my take on things ..

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Just as I predicted :rolleyes:

So how many of your snakes have lost an eye because they have been feeding live, how many have scars, or infection? Oh yeah that's right none because you have ZERO EXPERIENCE feeding live, and yet you are still advocating the same thing based on hearsay and some 10 years old picture that people keep bringing back up and that do not even reflect live feeding.

Many lose their eyes? Funny I have fed well over 20000 live preys (probably more) in the past few years and everyone still have their eyes. :rolleyes:

Bottom line what you feed YOUR animal is YOUR business, stop trying to scare people off based on what YOU believe, or fear or read. Try educating people instead and do so based on EXPERIENCE.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Still can't understand anyone feeding live . I'd feel so bad for the rodent so it won't be happening plus I've heard reports of mice age rats crying for ages whilst they're being constricted ( supposedly sounds like a human baby crying !) . Also I care far too much for my precious snakes to rusk them being bitten or scratched causing infections or worse and scarring . Check out the thousands of online photos of bitten / scratched snakes . Many lose an eye . Why on earth take the risk when you can defrost and simply heat up for ten seconds with a hair dryer ..

Just my take on things ..

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Just so everyone is aware of your experience level with live feeding, how many live feedings have you done in your lifetime?

In a past life my business partner and I did live feeding, mainly because I wasn't well educated at the time, he didn't like having to thaw frozens and it meant at least one of us got to go into our favorite local reptile shop to buy feeders at least once a week. He was not diligent though and decided to leave live rats in tubs with snakes overnight on two separate occasions, the first was not immediately fatal to the snake, but I doubt she ever fully recovered, and the other was fatal by morning. I blame this entirely on the business partner, not the snake or the rat, but it can happen.

I my newest endeavor however, I'll be going it strictly with frozen thawed. Not because of the "danger" of live feeding, but for the cost savings and the convenience. Sure, it takes a bit longer to thaw them out and prep them for a meal, but I have the time. I have an old lady, 4 furries and soon to be several rabbits I have to make the rounds with every day, so adding one rat thaw meal every few days is no big deal at all.

It's a forum . Surely you want a balanced view .??

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Originally Posted by 200xth

Just so everyone is aware of your experience level with live feeding, how many live feedings have you done in your lifetime?

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I've never been to the sun but I know it's bladdy hot !

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Just as I predicted :rolleyes:

So how many of your snakes have lost an eye because they have been feeding live, how many have scars, or infection? Oh yeah that's right none because you have ZERO EXPERIENCE feeding live, and yet you are still advocating the same thing based on hearsay and some 10 years old picture that people keep bringing back up and that do not even reflect live feeding.

Many lose their eyes? Funny I have fed well over 20000 live preys (probably more) in the past few years and everyone still have their eyes. :rolleyes:

Bottom line what you feed YOUR animal is YOUR business, stop trying to scare people off based on what YOU believe, or fear or read. Try educating people instead and do so based on EXPERIENCE.

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So I can comment or offer an opinion as long as its the same as yours . How bizarre !

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I've never been to the sun but I know it's bladdy hot !

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You do not know, you assume :rolleyes:, again you have ZERO experience on the subject! BTW how did the last debate work out for you?
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...-vs-F-T-debate

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

So I can comment or offer an opinion as long as its the same as yours . How bizarre !

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Opinion based on what? all you have ever done is try to scare people based on ZERO experience, unlike you I try to EDUCATE people and that is what you should strive for. BTW

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Right , as I promised before .... I'm done in these LIVE feeding threads and won't contribute to any other LIVE feeding threads in the future . I'll never understand why you guys feed LIVE but that's life .

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

So I can comment or offer an opinion as long as its the same as yours . How bizarre !

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Having an opinion of live vs. F/T is completely fine, but what you were describing in your first post was what happens during ​IRRESPONSIBLE live feeding. As Deborah was saying, she has fed over 20,000 live rodents and has not had any incident like you were describing. All everyone is asking is to please not scare away people from live feedings based on incidents that happen when an irresponsible keeper practices irresponsible techniques.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

So I can comment or offer an opinion as long as its the same as yours . How bizarre !

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Okay....I tried....
We already know you have NO NONE ZERO experiance feeding live.
You cannot argue a point on just what you have heard or read.
I dont denate nuclear science, WHY? Not my thing.

There are several people responding on this post that have 10s of 1000s of live feedings without any problem not including myself.

PS you also proved yourself not of your word. :rofl::rofl:
I remember you posting that you dont like, understand or want to be a part of any live/frozen debate. Sucks to be you

I've fed live for ten years and I've never ever had a eye injury to a snake. In fact, the very worst I've ever seen was the equivalent of a scratch.

And BTW, a small injury like a rodent bite heals up and you wouldn't be able to even see it after one shed. So the whole "scars and scratches" from a rodent bite is sort of false, unless you manage to see it right after it occurs. Even severe injuries tend to heal over and disappear after several sheds. I have personal experience with a severe "injury" as I had a snake that was put on a respirator(long story) and the vet inserted the tube through the side. You couldn't tell where that 2 inch long incision was after a year. A rat bite is generally under 1/8 inch. You'd be hard pressed to find it fresh.

Live feeding doesn't cause problems in general. Leaving unattended prey can be dangerous and even fatal. Feeding larger prey like rabbits or adult rats could result in a bite.

Snakes are individuals and yes some snakes ARE stupid when it comes to hunting and striking prey. I don't care how many millions of years it took to get the snake to this point, there's always a doofus in every generation. I've had a few that I prekilled prey for because they were idiots about striking in a bad spot, grabbing rodents by the rear and not wrapping the torso, resulting in a paniced rat trying to bite everything. Because I was supervising, I could quickly intervene. No injury occurred and I killed the rat quickly. After realizing this snake was just bad at killing, I began prekilling the rat and the problem was solved.

All this above having been said, no snake has ever been injured by a frozen/thawed prey item. Also, no one that I've ever heard of has gotten so attached to a frozen/thawed prey item that they ended up wanting to keep it as a pet instead of feeding it to the snake.

If you want to feed F/T, do it. There are some dangers to feeding F/T too. What about not thawing it completely? What if you leave it sitting out and it rots? What if it was killed using a drug instead of the safe CO2? Should that make people never use F/T prey? Of course not! You just feed F/T properly and responsibly! It's no different for feeding live. You do it right and you pay attention.

Or you do the zombie rat dance with a F/T prey for each snake every week.

I know there are a lot of opinions on this and it can get heated quickly. I guess to each their own. I won't say someone is wrong for feeding live, I just don't usually agree it's the best choice. I am surprised to see so many people endorse it, times do change.

Speaking as someone that originally didn't know snakes would take dead food and fed live, I am in the 'frozen' camp now. The statement "responsible live feeding" to me is kinda funny but I get it though, there are some very irresponsible things people can do (like leave unattended). Seeing the rat clamping down on my boa's neck over and over as it was being constricted is the main thing that changed my outlook. I tried to 'intervene', I tried to get tongs between the rat's mouth and my snake, I started hitting the rat (jumbo rat, adult boa) on the head to try to knock it out, nothing worked, it was horrible. (also to note, large prey being constricted does take time to die, it's not that quick.) That's when I started doing research and found out they would take dead food and I started to pre-kill everything. Fast forward years later and f/t became so easy to get, even better. I *will* feed live as a last resort, only pinks/fuzzies that can't really fight back and do die quickly. I have yet to find a snake that cannot be switched to f/t with persistence and patience, lots of patience.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Okay....I tried....
We already know you have NO NONE ZERO experiance feeding live.
You cannot argue a point on just what you have heard or read.
I dont denate nuclear science, WHY? Not my thing.

There are several people responding on this post that have 10s of 1000s of live feedings without any problem not including myself.

PS you also proved yourself not of your word. :rofl::rofl:
I remember you posting that you dont like, understand or want to be a part of any live/frozen debate. Sucks to be you

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Not of my word ? Jees I've slept since then and I'm Aspergers with a terrible memory - that was ages ago .

I just stumbled upon this thread and offered a different perspective ..

I don't see how directing others to online pics of injured snakes is a bad thing tbh ..

A novice may think there's no risk as they eat live in the wild (not confined ) .

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I've fed live for ten years and I've never ever had a eye injury to a snake. In fact, the very worst I've ever seen was the equivalent of a scratch.

And BTW, a small injury like a rodent bite heals up and you wouldn't be able to even see it after one shed. So the whole "scars and scratches" from a rodent bite is sort of false, unless you manage to see it right after it occurs. Even severe injuries tend to heal over and disappear after several sheds. I have personal experience with a severe "injury" as I had a snake that was put on a respirator(long story) and the vet inserted the tube through the side. You couldn't tell where that 2 inch long incision was after a year. A rat bite is generally under 1/8 inch. You'd be hard pressed to find it fresh.

Live feeding doesn't cause problems in general. Leaving unattended prey can be dangerous and even fatal. Feeding larger prey like rabbits or adult rats could result in a bite.

Snakes are individuals and yes some snakes ARE stupid when it comes to hunting and striking prey. I don't care how many millions of years it took to get the snake to this point, there's always a doofus in every generation. I've had a few that I prekilled prey for because they were idiots about striking in a bad spot, grabbing rodents by the rear and not wrapping the torso, resulting in a paniced rat trying to bite everything. Because I was supervising, I could quickly intervene. No injury occurred and I killed the rat quickly. After realizing this snake was just bad at killing, I began prekilling the rat and the problem was solved.

All this above having been said, no snake has ever been injured by a frozen/thawed prey item. Also, no one that I've ever heard of has gotten so attached to a frozen/thawed prey item that they ended up wanting to keep it as a pet instead of feeding it to the snake.

If you want to feed F/T, do it. There are some dangers to feeding F/T too. What about not thawing it completely? What if you leave it sitting out and it rots? What if it was killed using a drug instead of the safe CO2? Should that make people never use F/T prey? Of course not! You just feed F/T properly and responsibly! It's no different for feeding live. You do it right and you pay attention.

Or you do the zombie rat dance with a F/T prey for each snake every week.

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Here's a thread from this very forum on the topic .
Check out post 8 . Granted the guy left the snake and rat unattended but as he said the snake was virtually "ripped in half " ( his words ) ... It's irresponsible to suggest that rats CANNOT do any damage to your snake ..

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...-rats-vs-mouse

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Not of my word ? Jees I've slept since then and I'm Aspergers with a terrible memory - that was ages ago .

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Call me cold or whatever but YOU chose to post on a public forum....... I dont care what you have, doesnt change the debate or the facts.

Be more useful and start preaching thermostat use. More snakes are injured because of inregulated heat than live feeding each year.:gj:

Thank you all for the replies and opinions. I really thought feeding live wasn't going to be a problem. I watched her the entire time and it went down well. I defiantly feel like frozen is better because it's cheaper and I can keep a lot of them. Where with mice I don't have any proper cages to keep them in if my snake doesn't eat it. I'll have to work on that if I continue feeding live because man, it is a rush to see that.

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Originally Posted by 200xth

No she's not.

Your snake is the product of 70 million years of evolution with two of it's primary functions being breeding and eating small rodents/birds. Your snake knows perfectly well what she's doing when it comes to finding, killing, and eating food.

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She's smart in her own ways and stupid wasn't the best way to describe it. She's inexperienced. What she was doing was going up to the live mouse, with a plan to strike, but she gets too close to the point where she touches the mouse and it scurries off. She just needs to learn.

But again, thank you all for the replies. I think I'll go on and off with live feeding simply because frozen is cheaper and all. But live feeding is pretty interesting. And I know some people don't like the sight of another animal dying and I don't like it either but... eh. I can stand it. It's cool to see, I'm not going to lie. Those mice are adorable little creatures but it's so neat to see snakes attack them.


http://i61.tinypic.com/w8ucg8.jpg

Nixon..... Trust me, out of the egg they know what to do.

Yes frozen can be cheaper if planned out. I breed my own so live is all round easier in my house. I have access to both as I freeze off for customers too.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Call me cold or whatever but YOU chose to post on a public forum....... I dont care what you have, doesnt change the debate or the facts.

Be more useful and start preaching thermostat use. More snakes are injured because of inregulated heat than live feeding each year.:gj:

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I wasn't after sympathy , just explaining that I've got a terrible memory . Fact .

Another fact is that there are risks , possibly huge risks to your snakes when feeding live .

I know they do. I just find her tactics a bit weird but she got and ate the mouse herself so she's doing it right.

Zincubus, if you don't have anything good to share then please don't reply. Yes, some snakes can get injuries as you said in your first post, but that's from people not supervising them while feeding. People were just stating that you can't assume things that you haven't got an experience with. You can't automatically assume something is bad or good by just internet. Take getting sick for example, type in "I have a cough" and the internet tells you that you have HIV.

You realize some snakes only take live right? If you went to africa right now how many bps do you think you would find with eyes missing?

Okay, I am just going to put this out there because there seems to be a bit of arguing over this now. Many keepers do "keep" based on opinions. Heck, even those who don't keep snakes have an opinion. I HATE dogs, my opinion is that are messy, noisy, and need training. My opinion... I risk a bigger chance of getting bit by my mother in law's two dogs then I do my collection of 22 snakes... again my opinion. But my opinion is based on the deaths per year of dog attacks compared to ball python and boa attacks. So some of it is education while some of it is opinionated. Same goes here. It is educated that snakes do get harmed by live feeding... but it is someone else's opinion that live prey suffers this way and the fact that this happens ALL THE TIME... which it doesn't. I disagree to the whole suffering thing. I used to euthanize my own feeders using C02. It took 20 minutes. They basically suffocated while they slept, and the younger they are, the longer it takes. And they were terrified. Death by snake strangulation is just as terrifying BUT it takes my adult female to constrict a jumbo ASF in 2 minutes! 2 minutes seems a lot better then suffering for 20 minutes. Again, that is my opinion. I have never been suffocated by C02 or by a snake so how the hell am I supposed to know. I use my opinion and I am educated by science.

When I fed my first live (someone sold me a female claiming she was on F/T... not, liar. Never went to that breeder again), so I had no choice but to feed live to her. I felt SOOO bad for the mouse. But then I realized how quick it was and now I swear by it. I do not euthanize my own feeders any longer because it is actually makes me feel worse then it did when a snake did it for me. My 20 minute killing sucked compared to my snakes 2 minute killing. And regardless, no matter what I feed my snakes, they were once alive, frozen or otherwise and it is something all of us keepers must understand.

You can definitely have an opinion about live feeding, but DO NOT post anything that is your opinion and start arguing about it because your opinion is better then everyone else's, in your opinion. It is a fact that snakes get harmed but it is NOT a fact that it happens ALL THE TIME! If one or two photos makes you uncomfortable with it, then that is up to you but go on to you tube and google live feeding. There will be hundreds of videos and not one snake will be harmed in any video which I think it definitely trumps your 2 photos of harmed snakes.

OKay, blah blah blah... I'm do now.

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Originally Posted by highqualityballz

You realize some snakes only take live right? If you went to africa right now how many bps do you think you would find with eyes missing?

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With all due respect their prey are not always fighting for their lives in an extremely confined space ....

I could probably survive ok if Mike Tyson was chasing me around a soccer stadium but if we were stuck together in a small room he'd rip my head off .

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Still can't understand anyone feeding live . I'd feel so bad for the rodent so it won't be happening plus I've heard reports of mice age rats crying for ages whilst they're being constricted ( supposedly sounds like a human baby crying !) . Also I care far too much for my precious snakes to rusk them being bitten or scratched causing infections or worse and scarring . Check out the thousands of online photos of bitten / scratched snakes . Many lose an eye . Why on earth take the risk when you can defrost and simply heat up for ten seconds with a hair dryer ..

Just my take on things ..

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You realize some snakes WILL not take f/t and only eat live right? How many snakes do you think you would find in the wild (africa) with eyes missing?

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Originally Posted by BCS

Okay, I am just going to put this out there because there seems to be a bit of arguing over this now. Many keepers do "keep" based on opinions. Heck, even those who don't keep snakes have an opinion. I HATE dogs, my opinion is that are messy, noisy, and need training. My opinion... I risk a bigger chance of getting bit by my mother in law's two dogs then I do my collection of 22 snakes... again my opinion. But my opinion is based on the deaths per year of dog attacks compared to ball python and boa attacks. So some of it is education while some of it is opinionated. Same goes here. It is educated that snakes do get harmed by live feeding... but it is someone else's opinion that live prey suffers this way and the fact that this happens ALL THE TIME... which it doesn't. I disagree to the whole suffering thing. I used to euthanize my own feeders using C02. It took 20 minutes. They basically suffocated while they slept, and the younger they are, the longer it takes. And they were terrified. Death by snake strangulation is just as terrifying BUT it takes my adult female to constrict a jumbo ASF in 2 minutes! 2 minutes seems a lot better then suffering for 20 minutes. Again, that is my opinion. I have never been suffocated by C02 or by a snake so how the hell am I supposed to know. I use my opinion and I am educated by science.

When I fed my first live (someone sold me a female claiming she was on F/T... not, liar. Never went to that breeder again), so I had no choice but to feed live to her. I felt SOOO bad for the mouse. But then I realized how quick it was and now I swear by it. I do not euthanize my own feeders any longer because it is actually makes me feel worse then it did when a snake did it for me. My 20 minute killing sucked compared to my snakes 2 minute killing. And regardless, no matter what I feed my snakes, they were once alive, frozen or otherwise and it is something all of us keepers must understand.

You can definitely have an opinion about live feeding, but DO NOT post anything that is your opinion and start arguing about it because your opinion is better then everyone else's, in your opinion. It is a fact that snakes get harmed but it is NOT a fact that it happens ALL THE TIME! If one or two photos makes you uncomfortable with it, then that is up to you but go on to you tube and google live feeding. There will be hundreds of videos and not one snake will be harmed in any video which I think it definitely trumps your 2 photos of harmed snakes.

OKay, blah blah blah... I'm do now.

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Fair points bud but I've NEVER EVER said that things go wrong EVERY time I just think its fair to point out that SOMETIMES things do go wrong and the snake get hurt ( or worse ) . I think it's only reasonable to show both sides .

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Originally Posted by Nixon

I know they do. I just find her tactics a bit weird but she got and ate the mouse herself so she's doing it right.

Zincubus, if you don't have anything GOOD to share then please don't reply. Yes, some snakes can get injuries as you said in your first post, but that's from people not supervising them while feeding. People were just stating that you can't assume things that you haven't got an experience with. You can't automatically assume something is bad or good by just internet. Take getting sick for example, type in "I have a cough" and the internet tells you that you have HIV.

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I think it's GOOD that I take the time to offer an alternative view. After all - mine aren't at any risk I'm just thinking of others

Thing is .. some don't supervise all the time .. especially if they're got few snakes .

Never in your original post did you say that these things 'sometimes' happen. It really looked like you thinking it was a very big thing. And like the others said, you can't talk bad about something you never tried. I'd understand not wanting to risk it but then you can't go off and say it's an immoral thing to do.

With proper knowledge and supervision feeding live is safe. Like those people who has fed thousands of snakes live prey and not one injury because they are cautious.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Not of my word ? Jees I've slept since then and I'm Aspergers with a terrible memory - that was ages ago .

I just stumbled upon this thread and offered a different perspective ..

I don't see how directing others to online pics of injured snakes is a bad thing tbh ..

A novice may think there's no risk as they eat live in the wild (not confined ) .

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April 5th not ages ago.

You don't offer a different perspective you force YOUR opinion based on ZERO experience and you keep trying to scare people instead of educating them.

Some of us offer FACTS based on experience

Like I said before I do not care what people feed so long they do it based on knowledge and not out of fear because someone as an agenda.

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Still can't understand anyone feeding live . I'd feel so bad for the rodent so it won't be happening plus I've heard reports of mice age rats crying for ages whilst they're being constricted ( supposedly sounds like a human baby crying !) . Also I care far too much for my precious snakes to rusk them being bitten or scratched causing infections or worse and scarring . Check out the thousands of online photos of bitten / scratched snakes . Many lose an eye . Why on earth take the risk when you can defrost and simply heat up for ten seconds with a hair dryer ..

Just my take on things ..

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Really don't see what's wrong with this post .

I never said bad things happened every time or even often .

Just my take on the issue .

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Originally Posted by Deborah

April 5th not ages ago.

You don't offer a different perspective you force YOUR opinion based on ZERO experience and you keep trying to scare people instead of educating them.

Some of us offer FACTS based on experience

Like I said before I do not care what people feed so long they do it based on knowledge and not out of fear because someone as an agenda.

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Well I'm never going change my stance in this topic .. Again what's the point of a forum if its not to listen to both sides .

5 months isn't long. ! ??

I've no idea what I had for dinner YESTERDAY so 5 months is a very long time to be fair .

Some of you folks seem rather sensitive or defensive on this issue and see me as an attacker for some reason .

Anyways. . It's my bedtime . Getting late over here in the UK.

Just like to reiterate that I've no intention of upsetting / annoying anyone ..

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

Really don't see what's wrong with this post .

I never said bad things happened every time or even often .

Just my take on the issue .

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You say you do not understand why people even feed live. Not understanding is the same thing as saying you are uneducated. Not understanding that gravity equals 9.81 m/s means that you are uneducated in physics. I do not understand how my husband can play Destiny on the PS4 for hours on end but hey, I have never played so is it really my place to judge? I do not like video games but that doesn't mean my husband can't play. Honestly, and I really hate to say this but can you even have a "take on the issue" if you do not understand? You only understand the risks but you do not understand how live feeding is safe.

I've found countless wild snakes, herping since I was barely more than a toddler flipping rocks, and zero have had missing eyes. Before you say, "they obviously die from those wounds", I've found my fair share of snakes scarred to kingdom come - from injuries the half of which would surely kill a person. Snakes are incredibly tough and can take a beating. They'd probably just rub a bit of dirt in a gouged eye and slither on their merry way. A good many of these heavily scarred individuals are probably survivors of run ins with predators(hawks, raccoons, foxes, hoe wielding human, etc) that managed to escape. Being in an enclosed space actually gives a greater advantage to the limbless snake as they now have 4 walls for extra leverage - it's no coincidence that many snakes will go to ground to chase/corner their prey. You would think if being in tight quarters was a disadvantage they'd adapt to something better - like the always popular ambush near a game trail or watering hole.

Just watch a constrictor bite and coil sometime - they have had a few years to figure out how to protect themselves. Here's a little break down:
1) latches onto prey, this is their most vulnerable state but only lasts a split second
2) throw first coil, usually a "u" shaped one that covers/protects their head
3) add another coil or two and it's pretty much game over

I should mention that a serpent often starts pulling back with their head as soon as they latch on which helps set their teeth while bringing the ensuing coils into play all the sooner. The resulting "stretching" of the prey gives them better control of the situation and allows them to easily throw extra coils if the need arises. Overly enthusiastic constrictors or those that feed more heavily on other snakes - such as king snakes - tend to do this on just about every feed and will often fully wrap their prey regardless of how much control they already have of the situation. This is also why when you mention a person who had a baby rodent scream like a dying child I can't help but shake my head at the needless suffering due to an inexperienced keeper. All it would have taken is a little shaking of the rodent, maybe a slight pinch on the snakes body or poke around it's head, to induce a kill before feeding.

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Originally Posted by Nixon

Never in your original post did you say that these things 'sometimes' happen. It really looked like you thinking it was a very big thing. And like the others said, you can't talk bad about something you never tried. I'd understand not wanting to risk it but then you can't go off and say it's an immoral thing to do.

With proper knowledge and supervision feeding live is safe. Like those people who has fed thousands of snakes live prey and not one injury because they are cautious.

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And this right here I can respect. Why? Read all the posts and think for yourself of your free mind and understand. :gj::gj::gj:

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Originally Posted by BCS

I disagree to the whole suffering thing. I used to euthanize my own feeders using C02. It took 20 minutes. They basically suffocated while they slept, and the younger they are, the longer it takes. And they were terrified. Death by snake strangulation is just as terrifying BUT it takes my adult female to constrict a jumbo ASF in 2 minutes! 2 minutes seems a lot better then suffering for 20 minutes.

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I was going to raise this point but I see you beat me to it. :gj:

There are absolutely valid reasons for preferring f/t over live but not wanting to cause suffering of the animal isn't one. If you're ordering f/t, you have caused the suffering and death of that rat just as much as throwing it live into the snake tub. You want to talk about horror stories?!!! Read about the ways people have put down rats for f/t. Top of this list is putting them in a 5 gallon bucket of water and then adding another bucket with a brick on top to drown them. Dispatch by bp is much more humane. Do you know how your f/t are euthanized, especially if coming from a local pet store?

There are ways to do CO2 euthanasia as humanely as possible. This involves the use of a regulator so you can control the flow which is necessary to induce unconsciousness without panic. Dropping a CO2 block in water is not the way to do this. I'm not speaking out against the use of CO2 blocks, but if you are using them or buying f/t from someone who does, it's no different than the fear a rat feels as it's being constricted.

There's a strong disconnect sometimes with people when they don't do the killing directly (or by bp proxy). My family is not happy with the way chickens are raised and treated in the factory system so we raise and slaughter cornish rocs ourselves. We give them as quick a death as possible (much more humane than anything gets from the grocery store) and it's much higher quality food. I still get amazed when I hear someone say "That's horrible, how could you kill a defenseless bird" or some such as they're biting into their chicken sandwich. Same thing with the live vs. f/t debate if you're bringing suffering into it. Just because you're not witnessing it doesn't mean it didn't occur.

I feed about 1k live each year with not a single problem yet. Overproduction is humanely euthanized for f/t feeders as necessary.

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Originally Posted by BCS

You say you do not understand why people even feed live. Not understanding is the same thing as saying you are uneducated. Not understanding that gravity equals 9.81 m/s means that you are uneducated in physics. I do not understand how my husband can play Destiny on the PS4 for hours on end but hey, I have never played so is it really my place to judge? I do not like video games but that doesn't mean my husband can't play. Honestly, and I really hate to say this but can you even have a "take on the issue" if you do not understand? You only understand the risks but you do not understand how live feeding is safe.

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Well it isn't totally safe though , is it !?

That's ONE reason why I wouldn't take the risk even if I wanted to feed live .

My stance on the whole live feeding issue is easy to understand and yet you're apparently struggling terribly .

Also ,your claim that not understanding something equates to being uneducated is laughable .

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Originally Posted by Jabberwocky Dragons

I feed about 1k live each year with not a single problem yet. Overproduction is humanely euthanized for f/t feeders as necessary.

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How long do you spend feeding each ONE incidentally , presuming you don't leave snake and rat unattended ??

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

How long do you spend feeding each ONE incidentally , presuming you don't leave snake and rat unattended ??

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Usually maybe 15 seconds or so per snake (5 to drop in, 5 to watch for a solid strike, 5 to remove if uneaten). Most strike immediately but the one's who don't get about 15 or 30 minutes and then the rat gets removed. I spend that time doing other husbandry tasks so doesn't really count.

One thing that made a strong impression on me early on when I started researching was an account by a guy who blamed a bad batch of F/T for the death of his boa. He believed that the rats had gone bad before they were frozen, and caused two regurges (to the best of my memory).

Could have been the case, I don't know. I do know for sure that if I get a live mouse - it hasn't spoiled! I can also get a general impression on its current health.

We raise our own chickens, rabbits and goats. I butcher the rabbits and poultry. I have butchered goats, but it is easier to send them off. I know they had comfortable lives, I know what they ate, I know they were healthy when they died, I know the slaughter was quick and humane, and I know the butchering process was sanitary. Might as well have the same for the snakes if possible. We buy live mice from the local independently owned pet store - they raise their own, and I've told the owner I want to buy some breeders to start my own colony.