Please, need help on how to proceed with feeding

Hello All, I need some serious advice about how to proceed to keep feeding Carmen. It`s been awhile since iv`e been on and some may remember that my Carmen has never eaten on her own (wild caught, tick infested, wormy, etc). I started feeding her (forced feeding) one mouse every 12 days and that was doing quite well, but she has grown over the last few months and is the size to easily take a small rat. Im now feeding her a mouse every 7 days and she is maintaining her weight but I notice that ever so gradually she is starting to drop, again, she needs more. How often could I feed her a mouse? Im truly afraid to start feeding her small rats, iv`e got the forced feeding down pat, she doesn`t stress from it at all, but a rat? It`s bigger and im scared to try it. Im hoping that maybe a mouse every 5 days would be o.k.? Maybe 2 mice every 7 days? Im at a loss as how to proceed.
Please, iv`e tried every single piece of advice on how to get her to eat on her own, it`s not going to happen.
Please if you know anything about how to graduate to feeding either two mice at a time or how often I can feed a mouse i`d greatly appreciate hearing from you.
Thanks so much, Di

First of all, you shouldn't force feed a ball python unless you absolutely have to. I hope you're referring to assist feeding, rather than force feeding.

You can't go about assist feeding a ball perpetually; if she's healthy right now, let her starve a bit and try feeding her live. If all the parasites are taken care of, and your husbandry is good, she will eat sooner or later... a ball python isn't going to just starve itself to death, contrary to the worries of the owner. As long as she isn't already emaciated, you should wait her out... If she's "eaten" so many mice by now, she should recognize it as food. If not, maybe a rat pup might stimulate her appetite.

If all else fails though, just feed her two mice at a time; if she swallows the first on her own (which she should be if you're assist feeding rather than force feeding), just put the second one in her mouth when only the tail of the first one is left to swallow. Hope everything works out for you.

hhw, Yes, I mean forced feeding. Unfortunately she would not eat on her own, ever. When I got her I tried live, leaving it in her tank (I now know better), iv`e tried frozen thawed, iv`e tried everything! Beleive me, if I hadn`t forced fed her the first time and kept it up she`d be dead now. As it was she lost so much weight and was extremely emaciated before I had no choice but to force feed her. (she had been vet checked, wormed) Your comment that I can`t perpetually assist feeding her is scaring me, especially since I force feed her, what are the eventual problems with it? So far she`s been doing fine with the forced feedings but what would be the problems down the line? She is so sweet, I would never do anything intentional to hurt her.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lizzynfriends

Beleive me, if I hadn`t forced fed her the first time and kept it up she`d be dead now.

---

Is that an official diagnosis from a vet, or are you just saying that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lizzynfriends

(she had been vet checked, wormed)

---

Has there been a follow up visit to make sure the worming was effective?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lizzynfriends

What are the eventual problems with it?

---

Complete break down of the immune system due to stress. Possibility for upper respiratory infection as well as a host of gastrointestinal problems.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lizzynfriends

So far she`s been doing fine with the forced feedings but what would be the problems down the line?

---

She may appear outwardly fine, but imagine what your mental state would be if someone was cramming ham sandwiches down your throat once a week. I'm sure you'd "look" healthy to passers by, but you certainly wouldn't "be" healthy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lizzynfriends

She is so sweet, I would never do anything intentional to hurt her.

---

I'm sure no one doubts that, but force feeding a snake is an EXTREMELY stressful thing to do to that animal.

One of the chief problems with force feeding is the lack of "prepping" of the digestive system before the item is pushed down her throat. Long before a healthy ball python takes a meal on it's own, it sees and smells the prey item. These stimuli get the snakes natural digestive juices flowing and digestive muscles loosened in preparation for the complicated process of swallowing an item several times larger than the esophageal tract. Then, during the constriction process, this loosening and increase in digestive and salivary fluids increases further. The process is very important to the healthy digestion of prey in a ball python. By force-feeding, these steps are skipped and the possible long term harm on the digestive system is really unknown.

Was this force feeding recommended by your vet? What other things did you try before resorting to force feeding? Has anyone (i.e.. your vet) gone over getting a WC import established with you?

-adam

Adam-OMG! Thats terrible! Yes, that was the consesus from twp seperate vets, both herp vets. The first vet checked her and wormed her but at that time she was looking good. Later, after not eating I took her back, the vet did a follwo up and re-checked her for parasites and told me that she was extemely emaciated and needed to eat but could offer no further help. I took her to another vet who also checked her for parasites and offered suggestions on how to get her to eat, all of which I had already tried to no avail. Finally I took her the serpentarium near me who has a snake specialist who showed me how to force feed her and iv`e been doing it ever since. Now each time before force feeding her iv`e given her a chance to eat on her own, tried all the tricks and finally had to force it. Each time now that I tried i`d go for a week or sometimes two to see if she`d eat so at first she wasn`t getting fed very regulary and wasn`t putting on much weight. Now that she gets fed on a schedule her weight is comparable to her lenght and girth (just now starting to loose a bit). So--im in a quandary, what do I do? I don`t want to shorten her lifespan or stress her so how do I keep her alive humanely? Im at a loss. I could write pages on the different ways iv`e tried to get her eat. (as an aside, recently I found through a friend another ball that was purchased at the same show, from the same dealer as my Carmen who died last week, she also had never eaten) HELP!

How did the vets check for parasites? Fecal flotation or cloacal swab? Also, what de-wormer did they prescribe and at what dosage and frequency? Do you have an accurate weight on your female?

More important than getting her eating right now is to get her acclimated to captivity. We'll assume that the worming worked (although I have my doubts) and work on your setup. Tell me how you have her enclosure configured (lights, hides, heat, temps, substrate, etc).

Do you have a digital scale to track her weight?

-adam

The first three times the worm check was done by swabbing, the fourth was done was fecal flotation. The wormer was fenbenozal sp? (I think, I can`t find the papers right now). Her tank is a 20 gal long with an undertank heater on one end with a hide and temps consistantly between 93-95, the middle of the tank runs between 84-92 and has a log and at the other end has another hide with the temps between 80-83 and the hunidity runs about 60%. The substrate is newspaper and in the middle of the tank is water bowl, shallow that she can curl up in if she wants (and sometimes does before and during shed). I don`t have a digital scale to weight her, ordered one and it should be here soon, since I noticed her dropping a tad I thought to keep track of it.

Out of curiosity, what exactly are her hides, and have you tried covering the sides of the cage for an extended length of time?

Hi Marla, Her hides are a half log (commercially purchased) and the other is a priority mail box approx. 8" long x 4" wide x 2" high. I had it on the floor one day and she spied it and practicall ran to it and couldn`t get in fast enough :-) She spends her time divided between the two hides when she`s not out scouting her tank. Yes, I had covered her tank completely for three weeks at one point, again, all in the efforts to get her to eat. Im about at the point (especially after hearing the effects of forced feeding) to try and find someone experienced to take her, I certainly don`t want to doom her to an early end, hard as that would be, it`s amazing the bond that you can form with your snake :-)

Temps sound good ... would prefer to see the cool side more of a constant 83-84.

Did any of the vets suggest blood work? I would want to rule out anything with the kidneys as well.

Fenbendazole is known commercially as Panacur and works great. I'm surprised that Flagyl (Metronidazole) was not also prescribed. It is very effective in treating protozoal infections which are quite common in imported ball pythons. I would also have fecals done very frequently.

What I like to do with import females is to keep them very dark and away from "foot traffic". I set them up very similar to how you have, but I put the entire cage in a closet. I also like to use cypress mulch as substrate (even though I use aspen with my regular collection). Cypress mulch has a nice texture and moist feel that import ball pythons really seem to like. Then, I use plastic flower pot bottoms from Home Depot as hides. I use a size that fits "just right" around the snake (not too big and not too small), when inside the snake should be in contact with all sides and the top. I use a hole saw to cut an appropriately sized hole in the top of the flower put bottom. Ball pythons really like hides with top openings that they can pop their heads out of and hunt their prey from above.

When I put these flower pot bottom hides into the cage, I bury them down into the mulch almost making an underground cave. It gets nice and warm and humid in there once they start using it and imports love that!

Then I just leave them alone in the dark for 4-6 weeks. You can take a peek each day, but I really try to not disturb them except for a weekly spot cleaning and water bowl cleaning.

After that time I'll offer a very small (relative to the snake) sized rat that's spent about 12 hours in a bucket of gerbil bedding in the closet with the snake. The smell of the bucket will get her juices flowing and after those 12 hours or so, I'll introduce the rat and leave it over night. The snake will be safe from the rat in it's buried hide.

I'll try that once a week for a month, then change to scented mice (once a week for a month), then start over with hamster bedding and a rat (once a week for a month), then start over with hamster bedding and a mouse (once a week for a month), then try with a PK gerbil (once a week for a month), then a PK hamster (once a week for a month), then a live unscented rat(once a week for a month), live unscented mouse(once a week for a month), live gerbil(once a week for a month), and live hamster(once a week for a month). I've actually never had to go farther than a PK gerbil, but I would try all of those things (10 months worth) before even thinking about anything else.

During that time, you can weigh her once a month to track possible weight loss.

If all that fails, I would assist feed a very small meal (not the same as force feeding), wait a couple of weeks, and start the process all over. Sooner or later she will eat, and if she's healthy, she shouldn't sustain any detrimental weight loss.

In a rare emergency (with rehabs that were on deaths door) I've tube feed supplements until some weight was established and then used the above methods. But I would never force feed. Force feeding begins a cycle of stress that leads to fasting and is impossible to break.

-adam

It may make no difference at all, but I would try recovering the cage and replacing the hides. It is my experience (limited, certainly, in comparison to some of our members like Kara and Adam) that ball pythons in general, and particularly those already showing signs of significant stress, like their hides to be snug, secure, and have some heft to them. I have no idea why those half-log hides are even still available as I've never seen a bp happy with one.

Here are some ideas you might consider: appropriately-sized (snug!) terra cotta pot bottoms with an entry chipped out with a hammer and filed or sanded so it's not sharp enough to cut, a homemade hide of appropriate size made from polymer clay and glazed with food-grade glaze, a hide constructed of (oven-baked for germ-killing) bricks and/or walkway tiles or stones, a stoneware bowl chipped like the pot bottom, a wooden salad bowl with an entry hole created by a dremel (I think that's the right tool) and weight added with either something resting securely on top or a layer of clay baked on, or something similar. The key things seem to be a good fit, only one entrance/exit (and that just big enough), and enough weight that the snake can't easily move the hide.

If you do give up, I am sure someone would be willing to give it a try to rescue her.

Adam, that sounds like great advice! I have the flower pot bottoms now and will go and cut the holes asap. Cypress mulch, again, being in Fl. it`s all around me :-) I have tried the scenting with the gerbil, actually had the mouse and gerbil living together, and also tried scenting a small rat with gerbil scent, but I didn`t try it for 10 months! (only three, during which time she lost a lot of weight) Iv`e even tried the gerbils. Im willing to try anything, and will do all the above again, but what happens after so many months of not eating and she goes down to skin and bones again? Im not sure what assisted feeding is, and at what point should it be considered? Also, your idea about blood work makes sense, i`ll make another appointment with the vet to have that done (no, surprizingly neither vet ever suggested it). Wish us luck, this poor girl has been through the wringer!

Marla, Yes, both you and Adam are thinking on the same lines :-) Im going out now to get the mulch and fix the pot bottoms, and am going to take Adams advice about another try to get her to feed. I hate to part with her and would only do so as a last resort, for her sake, lets just hope that this won`t be it! Thanks

Great! Definitely let us know how she's coming along. I've struggled with a wc non-feeder, too, and I have an idea how frustrating it can be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lizzynfriends

I have tried the scenting with the gerbil, actually had the mouse and gerbil living together, and also tried scenting a small rat with gerbil scent, but I didn`t try it for 10 months!

---

Ahhh .... don't forget the closet thing ... dark and away form scarey people! I think it's more the alone in the dark thing that turns them than the scenting ... the scenting is just a bonus (like when i put cinnamon sugar on my sons french toast).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lizzynfriends

(only three, during which time she lost a lot of weight)

---

Start keeping track of her actuall weight loss. Most of the time "eyeballing it" doesn't hold true. I think you'd be surprised to see an actual weight loss of less than 10-15% of her body weight (which will be fine). Any more than that, and I would go back to the parasite theory.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lizzynfriends

Im willing to try anything, and will do all the above again, but what happens after so many months of not eating and she goes down to skin and bones again? Im not sure what assisted feeding is, and at what point should it be considered?

---

Assist feeding is just putting the head of a small PK rodent into your snakes mouth and letting her constrict and eat it naturally. It's far better than force feeding, but still not recommended unless necessary.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lizzynfriends

Also, your idea about blood work makes sense, i`ll make another appointment with the vet to have that done (no, surprizingly neither vet ever suggested it).

---

Well, many vets aren't real current on modern herp care. Most of them are still going off what they were taught in school a long time ago. When looking for a herp vet, check to see if they are a member of the American Association of Reptile and Amphibian Veterinarians (AARAV). It doesn't mean they are an "expert" in herps, but at least a little better than their peers that are not members.

Have them run the blood work to look for problems with the kidneys. Kidney disfuntion or infection can be a factor in man non-feeders and is commonly overlooked by keepers and vets.

Also, talk to your vet about tube feeding. Whenever I have heard the diagnosis "severly emanciated" it is almost always followed with instructions about tube feeding. I am curious as to why this was never mentioned.

You're in Florida? How close to UFL? Dr. Elliot Jacobson teaches/works there and is really an authority on modern herp care. Don't know if that helps, but I thought I'd mention it.

Good luck, be patient, and remember DARK, WARM, and OUT OF SIGHT. She'll turn around, I'm pulling for you!

-adam