Killing the Mouse

Okay, i only feed FT or just killed but I'm wonder what ways others kill their mice and rats. for our hatchling spotted, we'd feed pinkie mice alive - fun if you are having a bad day...

but with regards to rats i was using co2. just enough to put them to sleep
then open the valve the whole way, killing them peacefully. I do this as i've read that there is a cortisol hormone release during stress that can harm the fed animals over time.

I'm wondering what anyone else does as i don't want to have another co2
tank in the house, and thumping them with my finger just sounds bad.

what would anyone do that wants to feed just killed, but not play silver hammer?

thnx

I feed mostly f/t, but sometimes whack when I can't get enough or the right size. Also, now that I'm breeding rats, I plan to get a CO2 canister and kill the babies that way. As long as whatever method you use is quick and no more painful than necessary, I think whatever works best for you.

The American Veterinary Assocation (AVA) recommends Co2 as the most humane way for dispatching rodents. Studies have been done of both the brain and body chemistry of "gassed" rodents and found nothing that would be harmful to snakes. "Wacking" is completely frowned upon by the AVA.

Personally, I only feed live.

-adam

I feed F/T to all three of my snakes but i used to feed P/K (pre killed)

I raise my own rodents. The method I have found easiest for prekilling (without using a gas chamber) is to use a plastic pipe large enough for them to fit into, I trap the head between the hole into the pipe and the surface they are on then yank the tail. If you do it correctly you will kill it instantly by seperating the spine from the base of the skull. It works for me and is rarely messy, I usually never "miss" now either but I'll admit it a took a few to get it to be "instant".

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Originally Posted by TekWarren

I raise my own rodents. The method I have found easiest for prekilling (without using a gas chamber) is to use a plastic pipe large enough for them to fit into, I trap the head between the hole into the pipe and the surface they are on then yank the tail. If you do it correctly you will kill it instantly by seperating the spine from the base of the skull. It works for me and is rarely messy, I usually never "miss" now either but I'll admit it a took a few to get it to be "instant".

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That method is actually called "cervical dislocation" and is listed as "acceptable" (or something along those lines) by the AVA for dispatching rodents. Their concern is (as you mentioned) someone without experience being able to do it correctly.

-adam

I gas live mice. It is just the easiest way for me to do it. I have recently been doing what someone else here (I think it was his wife actually) suggested. I open the valve slightly, to basically knock them unconscious and render them immobile. I wait its heart starts slowing, then I pluck him out and give him to my bp. My bp starts to investigate him, and soon, the mouse starts coming to. Just as he does, my bp sees him and strikes. This way has worked best for me every time.

I've tried feeding f/t many times, but Ronin just won't take em, no matter how much they "dance". I actually find it takes me much less time and greif to just buy a mouse and gas it, then it does to go through the whole thawing process. My whole feeding routine takes a few minutes, start to finish.

i've had trouble with getting adults switched voer from live but with hatchlings, it's pretty easy. i would like to use the gas and twitch method but i just can't house rats too. i really don't enjoy the thawing process though. i have had trouble with the snakes biting the middles and not the heads.

so the best way so far i see is gasing them to sleep and and then gasing them more until they are dead. i think that just gasing to sleep them feeding would still release cortizol (sp).

Thnx for the help.

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Originally Posted by Deven

so the best way so far i see is gasing them to sleep and and then gasing them more until they are dead. i think that just gasing to sleep them feeding would still release cortizol (sp).

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Deven, cortisol is a glucocorticoid only found in primates. Rodents do not produce it. Gas away!

-adam

Holy hormones batman!

I'm gonna tell my wife you said that...LOL.


thnx!

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Originally Posted by Deven

I'm gonna tell my wife you said that...LOL.

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Is she going to put me in time out?

-adam

no but i might be ab;e to get her to pull my figner...

anyway, so for gasing is there a reall world applicaiton for using vinager and baking soda? it's a heck of a lot cheaper but has anyone really tried it? it's got to be messy.

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Originally Posted by Deven

no but i might be ab;e to get her to pull my figner...

anyway, so for gasing is there a reall world applicaiton for using vinager and baking soda? it's a heck of a lot cheaper but has anyone really tried it? it's got to be messy.

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the initial setup for a Co2 tank may be slightly expensive (though less than $100) getting a refill on a 20oz C02 tank is only like $5.. and that much C02 will down a lot of mice/rats.

I'd think the vinegar/baking soda thing would be a real pain in the butt to say the least.

Average retail costs for a co2 setup:

20oz CO2 tank -- $25 (should include fill)
CO2 Remote Hose w/ Valve -- $25
Rubbermaid Container -- $5

Total Cost = $55

You can probably find cheaper prices hunting online, these are just general averages. The CO2 fill for a 20oz tank should be $4-5, and should last you a very, very long time (probably at least 100 mice).

sounds like a plan i think that i like that method
now if i could only convice my parents to pay for it.......

i personaly would wait for the price of pieds to drop, probably as long as it would take you to breed yours from hets.
just got with a pastel - 8-) or better yet, learn the tricks of breeding and then invest, with your parents help of course.LOL

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Originally Posted by epilover

Average retail costs for a co2 setup:

20oz CO2 tank -- $25 (should include fill)
CO2 Remote Hose w/ Valve -- $25
Rubbermaid Container -- $5

Total Cost = $55

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The capability to humanely dispatch your own rodents: Priceless.

:wink: (could...not...resist!)

K

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Originally Posted by KLG

Quote:

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Originally Posted by epilover

Average retail costs for a co2 setup:

20oz CO2 tank -- $25 (should include fill)
CO2 Remote Hose w/ Valve -- $25
Rubbermaid Container -- $5

Total Cost = $55

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The capability to humanely dispatch your own rodents: Priceless.

:wink: (could...not...resist!)

K

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*clap* *clap* :P

ahhh, the insite to truth! right on Captain!

I just whack the rats when they're the appropriate size, and freeze any that don't have to be fed right away.

killed or frozen thawed but not live:
https://ball-pythons.net/careimages/ballchew2.jpg

that hurts! i only wonder how long it lived before dieing.

Uh oh, don't let Adam see that post. :o ;)

I'll try and save this from becoming another debate.
That snake was chewed up like that from a careless owner leaving a live rodent in the tank for who knows how long. The snake didn't want to eat it, and the rodent had nothing to eat, so the snake became food. Sure, if you throw a rodent in a cage and leave it for days and days with no food, that can happen. But that doesn't mean live feeding is always going to turn out with a dead or injured snake. With common sense, feeding live can be safer than many think.

The End. :)

Oh, and this was talked about extensively at another topic recently. Check it out.

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Originally Posted by Deven

no but i might be ab;e to get her to pull my figner...

anyway, so for gasing is there a reall world applicaiton for using vinager and baking soda? it's a heck of a lot cheaper but has anyone really tried it? it's got to be messy.

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I have done the baking soda and vinegar method. but not for my snakes, it was for gassing rodents that needed to be put down humanely for whatever reason when I had my rattery. It can be a pain in the neck because you have to get your baking soda to vinegar ratio right, and you dont want to get it on the rodent... however, I never payed attention to whether they smelled like vinegar because I never needed to. Might be worth a try tho~ as long as it dont have that vinegar smell I would think the snake would still take it just fine.

F/T or whacked when necessitated. If I had to deal with prepping significant numbers I'd go the gas chamber route as well - especially since some of the snakes eat sizes that don't go down easily.

How much gas would it take to kill a litter of pinkie mice ?

Not much... :) I took a small chunk of dry ice, about the size of a quarter, put it in a cup and filled the cup with water. I put the cup in a big cooler with a very large adult rat, and he was gone in about 5 minutes. I used this same piece of ice to kill the second, same size rat, in the same cooler. The ice really hadn't melted any, and I still had a 12"x12" block left of the stuff... Kind of a waste of money for me...

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

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Originally Posted by Deven

so the best way so far i see is gasing them to sleep and and then gasing them more until they are dead. i think that just gasing to sleep them feeding would still release cortizol (sp).

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Deven, cortisol is a glucocorticoid only found in primates. Rodents do not produce it. Gas away!

-adam

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AHAHa And even if it was released, wouldn't CONSTRICTION be stressful enough and do the same thing, just like what has been happening in the wild for millions of years????

I swear some people don't fully think this stuff through, haha...

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Originally Posted by Brandon.O

How much gas would it take to kill a litter of pinkie mice ?

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You cannot gas pinkies. Anything less than 2 weeks old is hypoxia resistant. Just put pink mice straight into the freezer.

thats an idea. dry ice. they sell it here in volume with either chuncks or pellets. now wonder the frogs freaked out when i used it in their waterfall. just kidding. it's such a heavy gas, if you use larger sweater boxes that had a small hole at the top for the O to leave, you could inoculate quite a few, like maybe a few dozen with just a peice the size of a ravioli.

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Originally Posted by Deven

thats an idea. dry ice. they sell it here in volume with either chuncks or pellets. now wonder the frogs freaked out when i used it in their waterfall. just kidding. it's such a heavy gas, if you use larger sweater boxes that had a small hole at the top for the O to leave, you could inoculate quite a few, like maybe a few dozen with just a peice the size of a ravioli.

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lol, That's a random comparison. The size of a ravioli. Was someone hungry when they were posting? :P

lol! That is sort of random. I'm not even hungry, but that's making me hungry.

yeah, can you smell the garlic and tomatoes?

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Originally Posted by Shelby

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Originally Posted by Brandon.O

How much gas would it take to kill a litter of pinkie mice ?

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You cannot gas pinkies. Anything less than 2 weeks old is hypoxia resistant. Just put pink mice straight into the freezer.

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Questions: first, is there a faster, more humane way to do it than that? And second, how cold is a freezer, if you know? Because at this time of year it might be faster to just set the boogers in the carport for a while at night than to put them in the freezer. I'm asking because we're hoping for a litter of mice here shortly that we intend to feed off to Jess' baby king as pinkies.

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Originally Posted by Marla

Questions: first, is there a faster, more humane way to do it than that? And second, how cold is a freezer, if you know? Because at this time of year it might be faster to just set the boogers in the carport for a while at night than to put them in the freezer. I'm asking because we're hoping for a litter of mice here shortly that we intend to feed off to Jess' baby king as pinkies.

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Well, it actually is quite quick, and from what I've read, humane. There really isn't another way. I suppose you could whack them, but that'd be a bit difficult to say the least, plus that they'd probably... erm.. go squish pretty easily.

I suppose if your freezer is actually set to be warmer than it is outside, you could do it that way, but I'd be wary of wild animals trying to raid for a free meal

If you've ever picked up a pinky that has been away from it's mother for even a minute or two, you realise they do not retain heat very well at all. The extreme cold of the freezer will slow them down very quickly, so I doubt they feel any pain. Besides that, animals like mice that are born hairless, eyes unopened etc do not have a fully developed nervous system until awhile after they're born. That's why newborn puppies can be humanely docked and cropped without anaesthetic.

I haven't heard anything about animals less than 2 weeks old being hypoxia resistant... I'm in my 2nd year of Vet Tech school and nothing of the sort has been said. Yes, you can gas them, or just hold your fingers over their nose for a little bit, but that would take too long if there was a big litter. Marla, putting them outside would be a good idea, as they would just go to sleep, and die in their sleep. Wouldn't be as much of a shock as being put in the freezer, where it's -10 degrees. You could whack them also. I had to do away with a baby gerbil that had some health issues and it barely took anything. Put it in a surgical glove and hit it against the wall. Death instantly. I know it's not condoned by most associations, but it's the cheapest and most effective method that I have found. Dry ice was too expensive for me, $10 for a square foot piece, and I would really not have to separate the spine on a wiggling little mouse that could bite the hoodiddy out of my finger.

But anyway. Marla, putting them under the carport seems to be the best bet, fast and effective. Also, they shouldn't go to the bathroom on themselves since they are babies, and don't yet know how. Let us know how it goes :)

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Originally Posted by SatanicIntention

I haven't heard anything about animals less than 2 weeks old being hypoxia resistant... I'm in my 2nd year of Vet Tech school and nothing of the sort has been said.

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Really? I can't remember where I read that.. but I never tried gassing them. Hey if it works, it works. Popping them into the freezer is quick and simple. Not all freezers are -10 degrees though.. I'd think the colder the temp, the quicker the deed is done.

Something else that might work, that wouldn't shock their bodies into emergency mode, is maybe put them in the garage, if you have one, or a colder room in the house with the window open, and leave them in the cage without their mum. Would most likely cause them to just fall asleep and die. I don't know, whichever way you choose should work. I just think if I were a mouse/rat(no anthropomorphisizing here), it would be nicer to fall asleep and die, than be shoved in a plastic bag, a put in a really cold place, and freeze to death. Maybe it's like being caught in a snow storm and passing away like that? Sorry to be morbid, just thinking too much :)

I don't freeze mine in the plastic bag.. I don't know if it makes much difference, but I'd think it'd be more stressful to be really cold AND have no air, rather than just fall asleep really cold. I freeze mine in a deli cup.. when I move them over to the bag, they're all peaceful looking.. no open gasping mouths, just sitting with their heads resting on their feet.

Wouldn't putting them in just a cold room w/o mom make them survive longer before their death? You wouldn't want them to die of starvation. I don't know..

Oh definately not, it doesn't take babies that young very long to die. If they are about a day or 2 old, even in a regular room temp area, they would most likely freeze to death, as their bodies can't regulate their own temp yet.

I like it when they rest their heads on their feet, it's so cute. Ours do it when they want something, when they are laying down and have their heads on their feet, but they look up at you. Big Ol' Moochers, All of them! :)

I once laid my whole newborn rat litter side by side (all 15 of them) And each one had it's head resting on it's neighbors back. Very cute. Wish I got a pic.

Thank you both very much for your input. I was definitely trying to figure out the most humane way to kill off these little guys, since I'm not trying to get rid of them to be mean or because I dislike them but because they are food. I'm not really worried about wild animals coming into the carport after them, as Buddha is generally patrolling along the fence there from the late afternoon until it's time to come in for the night and very little gets past him -- as an opossum found out last week. At what approximate point do they outgrow the hypoxia resistance? Our pink rats are destined to become ball python snacks, but I want to wait until they're hoppers or so before putting them down.