"Rookie Snake Guy" question

My 9 yr old son just used his birthday money to buy a Ball Python! I have always been fascinated by snakes and thought they were really cool to watch but I never really considered owning one until my animal loving, biologist-in-training son decided his next purchase would be a baby male Banana Ball Python. Once we started shopping around and researching these snakes we both became completely enamored with all of the different morphs and the thought of diving into the world of snake ownership on a more serious level than just one animal as a pet. That brings me to my actual question. How difficult would it be to breed these animals as a hobby? How do you get started? There's obviously a lot to learn but we wouldn't rely on it to put food on the table. At the same time, if we're going to do it, I would want to produce quality animals that someone would actually want to purchase so that we don't end up broke with hundreds of snakes in our garage! If it worked out in the longer term, my son would LOVE to be able to earn a little money doing something like this throughout high school rather than making $8/hr pushing shopping carts in the grocery store parking lot! I've already learned a lot from reading what you guys have written in this forum. I'm hoping you can share some additional wisdom that applies directly to my current situation. Thanks in advance!

To be 100% honest The breeding part is not to difficult when you have the right setups... you need a few racks adult medium hatchling rack and a incubator...thermostats.. steady supply of food live and frozen....... all the cleaning supplies and time to care for all the snakes and rats if you breed those yourself... if you are going to do it in your garage and it doesn't have ac and heat then you will have to build a room and control the temp steady.... buy all the females grow them up a year at least buy males breed hope everything work in your favor....get the hatchling to eat good easier said than done sometimes....take quality photos.....try than sell them....if your shipping to people its harder without reputation....... and not to mention fight with a flooded market...... after you spend a few thousand dollars to get fully setup your looking at probably 4-5 years to break even.. my suggestion would be to buy two or three female at most raise them for a year and but one male and give it shot with a small number of snakes and go from there. I have seen so many people go ball crazy and spend 8,000 on collections and turn and selll them 2 year later for 3,000 because it to much work and its not the get rich quick scheme they thought it was..... take it slow... I have owned snaked for the last 15 years and just had my first clutch this year....I still own my first snake still remember they are 20-30 year commitment....are you going to care for them when he is at college and cant have them.... last note when I say buy females and wait a year then buy a male it so buy the time the male is up to size the female will be close the next year..

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Have a look at this page, here. It outlines the steps in the breeding process. I haven't started breeding yet, so I personally can't say whether breeding is very difficult or not, but I've found this page to be very informative.

http://ballpython.ca/gallery/breeding/

This page tells you about the various defects linked to ball python morphs. Very important to know before deciding to breed in my opinion. Some people avoid the morphs with defects, others do not. It really comes down to personal preference.

http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php

This goes into the different ball python morph complexes. That means that when you breed two morphs from the same complex together, you may get something more dramatic than expected. For example, lesser x mojave is an all white snake. If you bred that lesser mojave to a normal, you would get all lessers and mojaves. Definitely worth a read.

http://www.owalreptiles.com/complexes.php

If you haven't had a look at this website yet, you'll have a lot of fun here. Play around with the genetics wizard to better understand what your potential pairings could make.

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/

As I mentioned earlier, I haven't started breeding yet. However, I plan to start sometime next year. When building my collection, I bought snakes that I liked. I think it's important to choose the best looking animals that you can afford. I mean, if your collection doesn't suit your tastes, why have the animals? You're not guaranteed to sell everything, so if you don't like what you produce, you might end up keeping snakes you don't like.

My collection has become a pretty decent size, and I've noticed something about that... it's important to have a really good live rodent supply. At first it was enough to just go to the pet store for live mice, but it quickly got to be too inconvenient. I have three snakes that only eat live food. If you're breeding snakes, you should probably be breeding rats as well.

It's also a really good idea to know a reptile vet nearby. If you end up with a snake with an RI or an egg bound female, this one is important. Always quarantine new arrivals far away from your established collection.

If you want a shot at making money, and that seems pretty difficult to do with any kind of animal, consider getting a recessive gene female. It'll take longer to see results, but the offspring will be worth more. For example, you could grow up a piebald female and breed her to a male banana to make banana het pieds. Then you could take a banana het pied male and breed it back to the mother to try for some visuals. If you don't want to do the recessive thing, at least buy females with more than one gene. A bumblebee costs the same amount to feed as a pastel, and it would be much better for breeding. Spend the money on quality females. If that means you can only buy one snake instead of five, it just means you have four less mouths to feed. I really wouldn't expect to make money on ball pythons, so it might be better to see any money made as an added bonus.

If you really want to give breeding a try, be sure your setup is completely ideal and you're committed. I personally think breeding any animal is a wonderful experience. I remember my dad keeping and breeding birds and small animals when I was younger. Doves were the most prolific. Lovebirds were a bit louder and didn't produce much, but they were my favorites. We had a few litters of guinea pigs and I kept two as pets. The others were given to friends. Good memories. It's an amazing experience for any kid to be allowed to be involved in the keeping and breeding of animals. It teaches responsibility, respect for animals and, eventually, loss. Breeding anything will inevitably lead to losing an animal. It might be a guinea pig born with a spine deformity, or it might be a bird who gets in a freak accident and breaks a leg. I breed rabbits for showing purposes today. If you believe you're prepared to breed any kind of animal, I say go for it. There will be bumps along the road, you're very likely to end up losing a life you may have helped create and you may lose money, but in the end, I still think it's worth it.

Thanks for both of those responses! It sounds like there could be a fine line between this being a really cool thing to do along side my son and being giant, expensive failure...lol! Ace, my son, loves anything to do with animals, science etc. I really think he would learn a tremendous amount doing something like this because he'll be way into all the details. The harder part for me to grasp is the financial side. I've been an entrepreneur my whole life so I always try to think about how the dollars will be made & lost. The biggest question in my mind is how to sell the animals. What are the best outlets for small, unknown like we would be? Given that we aren't trying to make a living off snakes, is there a market to "wholesale" animals to someone who DOES have an established reputation? On the flip side of the same line of thought, where is the best place to buy new snakes? We bought our first one from Chun Ku at Dynasty Reptiles and had a good experience. Would we be better served to wait for reptile shows & buy there? Thanks again for engaging in this conversation that, I realize, is probably pretty boring for those who have been around a while!

...also, I read somewhere that white snakes sell like crazy. Is that true? I might be content to breed for BELs over & over again if they're really popular. I also liked Penultimate's idea of spending some time working on pieds and making that our "niche". Seems like a smaller operation with a narrow focus on higher demand morphs stands the best chance of being profitable.

Recessive hold value alot better...they dont sell that quick I can tell you that....alot of it depends on ur Location...I am not trying to scare you out of breeding for you and your son I think its great....I hope when I have kids they can carry on my passion. Im just saying start small and get a clutch or two before taking it further so if it you decide you dont want to do it your not in it that big...... I am holding back just about every female I produced this year and I will do the same for the next few years to build a big breeding stock of female.takeing care of o e snake is easy im at 31 and spend about 1+ a day cleaning and general care of the snakes....much less the rats....... and now with 10 babies to feed every 5 days on top of the big snakes that piss a quart of water a day it seams it get a little old.... 75%of my time is picking up crap I think.....but a bad day cleaning snake crap is better than a good day at work. Good luck on ur journey....and feel free to ask any ? U have.

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If he were my son, I would focus simply on good husbandry to begin with. He is nine. His love may be snakes this year, but tropical fish next year.

Also, as a breeder you are dealing with lives. Ethically, the lives come before the money - that holds if you are raising meat chickens for the customer's freezer, or English Mastiffs as pets.

This is not to say that I wouldn't choose a morph with potential; a good morph will keep your son interested and forward thinking with a goal...just that the money side isn't everything.

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Originally Posted by phogg

Thanks for both of those responses! It sounds like there could be a fine line between this being a really cool thing to do along side my son and being giant, expensive failure...lol! Ace, my son, loves anything to do with animals, science etc. I really think he would learn a tremendous amount doing something like this because he'll be way into all the details. The harder part for me to grasp is the financial side. I've been an entrepreneur my whole life so I always try to think about how the dollars will be made & lost. The biggest question in my mind is how to sell the animals. What are the best outlets for small, unknown like we would be? Given that we aren't trying to make a living off snakes, is there a market to "wholesale" animals to someone who DOES have an established reputation? On the flip side of the same line of thought, where is the best place to buy new snakes? We bought our first one from Chun Ku at Dynasty Reptiles and had a good experience. Would we be better served to wait for reptile shows & buy there? Thanks again for engaging in this conversation that, I realize, is probably pretty boring for those who have been around a while!

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The best advice I can give you is don't ever breed as a consideration of $$$. Gained OR lost. Breed for the love of the animal, and that way you will never be disappointed.

Please also be sure you have a plan to be able to house babies you cannot sell right away. Normal ball python babies are a dime a dozen in most areas and it can be hard to find people to take them. Even if you plan your morphs well you are bound to produce normals from time to time.

There are many other snake species to consider, as well, some of which will breed easier than BP's or be easier to sell in your area. Lots of things to consider... spend a year or so enjoying some pet snakes and getting a feel for the reptile market in your area. Once you find out what sells you can make an informed decision.

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Originally Posted by Hypancistrus

There are many other snake species to consider, as well, some of which will breed easier than BP's or be easier to sell in your area. Lots of things to consider... spend a year or so enjoying some pet snakes and getting a feel for the reptile market in your area. Once you find out what sells you can make an informed decision.

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That's actually another good point. I live in the Nashville area and I'm having trouble finding any place other than big box stores that have BP's. There certainly don't seem to be many folks offering a broad selection of morphs. It's also hard to find shows in this area. I wish there were more options around here.

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Originally Posted by phogg

That's actually another good point. I live in the Nashville area and I'm having trouble finding any place other than big box stores that have BP's. There certainly don't seem to be many folks offering a broad selection of morphs. It's also hard to find shows in this area. I wish there were more options around here.

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Personally, I wouldn't even look at pet stores. For one thing, I think your chance of getting a snake with mites is higher. Even is the store is careful, the public is handling these animals, and they may be carrying mites from their own reptiles. Mites are not only a hassle, but a suspected carrier of IBD. IBD is fatal, and spreads to nearby snakes. Just in this past week, two members of this board have posted that they lost animals to what was likely IBD.

Picking a reputable breeder who ships overnight is the best bet for bio security. You can find a few advertising here, for starters.

Is there anywhere to find "cut and dried" descriptions of each morph's typical characteristics? For example, what should I expect to see in a Fire or ghost... and all the others out there?

Kevin from NERD has 700 page book all about balls and the morphs......go to new England reptile distributors .com

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The Barkers of VPI also have a book on the Ball Python.
I don't have it, so I don't know what the focus is.
You could contact them.

Vida Preciosa International

Well, that sucks.

I went on to the NERD site. That looks like a book I would like to have. Unfortunately the click to order option didn't work...said URL was missing.

I clicked around some more. The site itself has a lot of info - was just beginning to dig in, but (it?) froze my computer. This is an old machine - hope others have better luck. I may try again in a week or so - I want to have another look there, and at that book.

Kevin is top notch and has some top quality animals.... that book has endless amounts of Information.......I think Amazon has it to

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Originally Posted by distaff

Well, that sucks.

I went on to the NERD site. That looks like a book I would like to have. Unfortunately the click to order option didn't work...said URL was missing.

I clicked around some more. The site itself has a lot of info - was just beginning to dig in, but (it?) froze my computer. This is an old machine - hope others have better luck. I may try again in a week or so - I want to have another look there, and at that book.

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Try amazon.

Karnage Royals
1.0 Yellow Belly (Leather Head)
0.1 Bumble Bee (Karai)
1.0 Het Albino (Raphel)
0.1 Het Pied (Diamond)
0.1 Het Genetic Stripe (Bree)

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Originally Posted by phogg

Is there anywhere to find "cut and dried" descriptions of each morph's typical characteristics? For example, what should I expect to see in a Fire or ghost... and all the others out there?

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Hey, its so nice to see someone willing to be a reptile keeper and pursue breeding bp's in the future. Your son is the catalyst and you are the effector and together you guys can accomplish this! Take the time to learn bc it never stops and read, read, read, all you can about bp's and snakes in general. As for a amazing , educational site to use as a guide and your go to reference is the great VMS HERPETOCULTURE website. They have a whole series from genetics intro through genetitcs 101 through 106! From corn snakes to ball pythons they have it all. You may even be tempted to buy a animal from them after you really get into their educational facts and theories. Oh, and don't miss out on all the educational topics right here on bp.net also! Just use the search bar and take it from there. :gj: :gj:

African house snakes are extremely easy to breed, very prolific (multiple clutches in a year), good tempered and easy to sell. They make an excellent choice for a first time breeder. There are a lot of little things you may not think about until it is too late in regards to breeding. It isn't nearly as devastating to loose a clutch of eggs to an accident when you know your next clutch is only 90 to 120 days away.

Just my 2 cents.

I am in the same situation. My 10 year old picked up my fascination with reptiles and got me into the breeding end of it again. I bred colubrids mostly back in the 80's when captive breeding first started taking off right around the time of the first National Breeders Expo back when they were in Orlando. I also was and still am amazed with Ball Pythons and the genetic diversity and have no regrets about building my collection. I have two seasons of hatching about a dozen clutches behind me now and still feel like a kid on Christmas morning when I see a nose sticking out of an egg. I would say the hardest part of this is selling the babies. I didn't really have any intention of making a profit but I didn't expect I would have to wholesale really nice well started snakes for pennies on the dollar either. I admit that I haven't put a whole lot of effort into marketing and perhaps I could have done better in that regard but, that's my advise. If you are looking to sell these babies with any sort of return on investment, buy carefully, and work on a plan to sell them well in advance. Some sort of marketing plan to separate you from everyone else out there selling similar animals. Good luck and even if you end up wholesaling dirt cheap it is still an awesome experience you can share with your son.

Yea my 5 year old picked up the fascination with ball Pythons quick, he helps me feed, clean the tanks, he holds them. He actually stole the Het albino I have, which he gave the name Raphael I'm really excited that he is so interested in them.

Karnage Royals
1.0 Yellow Belly (Leather Head)
0.1 Bumble Bee (Karai)
1.0 Het Albino (Raphel)
0.1 Het Pied (Diamond)
0.1 Het Genetic Stripe (Bree)

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Originally Posted by phogg

my son would LOVE to be able to earn a little money doing something like this throughout high school rather than making $8/hr pushing shopping carts in the grocery store parking lot!

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I read through the thread and just would like to emphasize again that you guys may not be making big bucks with breeding BP's- after months or years of research/waiting for the female to become sexually mature or spending more money in the first place on a proven female breeder, feeding all of your adults, and even after a successful breeding, waiting for your hatchlings to sell (it's not as easy to start selling as you'd think, if you don't already have a reputation/fancy breeder website and with already so many hobby breeders out there building a rep) which may take a bit longer than planned... at best, you will break even with the money you dropped on the hobby in the beginning. More likely than not, it will be a little loss of money, unless you really drop the $$$ on the next rare and popular morph or a world's first. And even then, it's a guessing game for how long the morphs you're going for will be in fashion. Ball pythons are only a depreciating asset, and depreciating rather quickly over just a few years too, with the breeding hobby becoming more and more popular.

Pieds and BEL's (from my observation) have depreciated slower, but all in all it is a depreciating hobby nevertheless!

Breed if you love the animals and want to learn/for the experience! Because the money/lack thereof may not be worth it, if that's one's main motivation...

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Originally Posted by TCBallPythons

Good luck and even if you end up wholesaling dirt cheap it is still an awesome experience you can share with your son.

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That's pretty much what caused me to seriously consider doing this. I'm completely guessing but I feel like we can at least sell babies for enough to recoup most of what we spend on the operation and really have a good time with it if nothing else. I'm always in favor of an idea is really fun, has some potential financial upside and fairly limited downside. If/when we pull the trigger on this, we will obviously start with only a handful of snakes and see what happens.

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Originally Posted by redshepherd

Breed if you love the animals and want to learn/for the experience! Because the money/lack thereof may not be worth it, if that's one's main motivation...

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Yeah, the more I've read the less I have expectations of making any kind of real money doing this. My idea of big success would be if this just turned into something my son could do and make the same $4-5k he'd make at a run of the mill summer job. He'd certainly learn a lot more!

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Originally Posted by redshepherd

...waiting for your hatchlings to sell (it's not as easy to start selling as you'd think, if you don't already have a reputation/fancy breeder website and with already so many hobby breeders out there building a rep) which may take a bit longer than planned...

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I agree that this is the most critical part to figure out. Any advice on what might be the most effective way to sell snakes as new/little guy?

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Originally Posted by phogg

I agree that this is the most critical part to figure out. Any advice on what might be the most effective way to sell snakes as new/little guy?

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Most sell/build a rep starting from faunaclassified and some on the "Ball Pythons Classified" facebook group.

I don't have much in-depth advice to offer, but a fancy camera/photography skills helps quite a bit... If you're breeding more than a couple pairs, creating a breeder website and naming your business, with some neat graphics/website-building abilities also boosts a rep- using other breeder's websites as visual reference. Not that it's required, but these "image creating" aspects would definitely help and make you look reputable.

I would talk to your local breeders and buy animals from them when it's time to get additional snakes. That way they know you're out there. Establish relationships with them. Once you have some hatchlings, you could ask one of them if it would be ok to share a table at an expo in the future. After I bought from one local breeder several times, he told me that it would be fine to share a table eventually. I think people are more willing to buy from small breeders if they see the animals in person, so an expo might be the perfect place to start. My plan is to start by selling on Kingsnake, Fauna, on my own website and at expos. I've noticed that a lot of breeders on here have their logos and a link to their website in their signature, and I think that's an excellent idea if the signature is well designed.

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Originally Posted by phogg

My 9 yr old son just used his birthday money to buy a Ball Python! I have always been fascinated by snakes and thought they were really cool to watch but I never really considered owning one until my animal loving, biologist-in-training son decided his next purchase would be a baby male Banana Ball Python. Once we started shopping around and researching these snakes we both became completely enamored with all of the different morphs and the thought of diving into the world of snake ownership on a more serious level than just one animal as a pet. That brings me to my actual question. How difficult would it be to breed these animals as a hobby? How do you get started? There's obviously a lot to learn but we wouldn't rely on it to put food on the table. At the same time, if we're going to do it, I would want to produce quality animals that someone would actually want to purchase so that we don't end up broke with hundreds of snakes in our garage! If it worked out in the longer term, my son would LOVE to be able to earn a little money doing something like this throughout high school rather than making $8/hr pushing shopping carts in the grocery store parking lot! I've already learned a lot from reading what you guys have written in this forum. I'm hoping you can share some additional wisdom that applies directly to my current situation. Thanks in advance!

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Originally Posted by redshepherd

I read through the thread and just would like to emphasize again that you guys may not be making big bucks with breeding BP's- after months or years of research/waiting for the female to become sexually mature or spending more money in the first place on a proven female breeder, feeding all of your adults, and even after a successful breeding, waiting for your hatchlings to sell (it's not as easy to start selling as you'd think, if you don't already have a reputation/fancy breeder website and with already so many hobby breeders out there building a rep) which may take a bit longer than planned... at best, you will break even with the money you dropped on the hobby in the beginning. More likely than not, it will be a little loss of money, unless you really drop the $$$ on the next rare and popular morph or a world's first. And even then, it's a guessing game for how long the morphs you're going for will be in fashion. Ball pythons are only a depreciating asset, and depreciating rather quickly over just a few years too, with the breeding hobby becoming more and more popular.

Pieds and BEL's (from my observation) have depreciated slower, but all in all it is a depreciating hobby nevertheless!

Breed if you love the animals and want to learn/for the experience! Because the money/lack thereof may not be worth it, if that's one's main motivation...

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Originally Posted by phogg

That's pretty much what caused me to seriously consider doing this. I'm completely guessing but I feel like we can at least sell babies for enough to recoup most of what we spend on the operation and really have a good time with it if nothing else. I'm always in favor of an idea is really fun, has some potential financial upside and fairly limited downside. If/when we pull the trigger on this, we will obviously start with only a handful of snakes and see what happens.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by phogg

Yeah, the more I've read the less I have expectations of making any kind of real money doing this. My idea of big success would be if this just turned into something my son could do and make the same $4-5k he'd make at a run of the mill summer job. He'd certainly learn a lot more!

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Good advice from redshepherd.

There is a real financial downside and I'm sorry but your expectations are still not close to realistic. Don't expect to come close to covering your costs if you're wholesaling all of your babies "dirt cheap" and have more than a couple snakes. Why would you want to breed by just wholesaling off anyway? Spend some time in the sale ads and you'll see many people selling their entire collections, racks included, for 50% to 75% less than what they initially paid for everything. You can make money, even a living, off of selling exotics but it is definitely not the easy money some people think it is... they jump in whole hog and lose their shirt. Unless you are building this up for years and dropping money on priming a business for him, there is no way your son will make $4-5k in profit over his summer break. Maybe I misread that but he'll be lucky to make $1k in profit unless you are not counting all the expenses.


As you mentioned, the best way to start is with a handful of snakes (or less) and see how that goes. Build a website and get involved online and at shows. If you're serious about making a profit and having more than a handful of snakes, you'll need to breed your own rats. Prepare to spend much more time caring for those rats than you do the snakes.


I think getting your son involved in the hobby and breeding in an excellent idea. It's an incredible experience that can teach many important skills (animal husbandry, marketing, responsibility, etc.). You'll be lucky to break even though so I would not factor in financial success as a reason to start that path.

Thanks for all the input. I think we're going to attempt buy a couple of snakes that are ready to breed & give it a shot. We're going to do it for fun & try not to lose our shirts! If we get lucky & it begins to turn any kind of profit in the years to come, that'll be a really cool bonus.

By the way, I think I've decided to buy a few rats & see what I can learn about raising those guys too. Should be fun!