Schutzhund training

Has anyone done this before with their dog? Not paying someone to do it, but actually done it themselves with their dog?

From what I understand it takes some space and some equipment (and a whole lot of time), so it's not normally done by someone at home alone, but is usually done at Schutzhund clubs or working dog clubs, etc.

Anyone done it? How'd you like it?

I looked into doing it myself and then quickly decided it wasn't worth it after learning our homeowner's would drop us immediately (regardless of where the training comes from). If you haven't already, my advice is to start with your homeowner's and make sure you'll still be covered. I had to investigate 5 different companies just to get our dog breed covered so I have no idea which company will even cover a Schutzhund trained dog unless it's a Golden Retriever but I'm sure there's some independent agencies that do.

It is something you can do yourself with dedication and resources. I had an acquaintance years ago who was a professional bodyguard partnered with a working guard dog. He did 100% of the dog training himself and it was much more intense than Schutzhund.

There can be a pretty strong negative stigma about IPO/schutzhund/bitework in the general public who aren't well-versed in dog sports, training, and behavior. So agree with the comment above!

It's definitely the best idea to start with a bitework club, unless you already has years of first-hand experience with training bitework (of any category) with a reputable club. Second, is that "famous" does not necessarily equate "reputable" or even a trainer that you will enjoy working with. First thing's first though, success in the sport will very much depends on the breed and individual dog's temperament and genetics. Do you already have a dog that you'd like to start working with, or is it just a tentative question/thought? How comfortable are you with possessive aggression/resource guarding, defensive aggression, fight drive, suspicion, prey/hunt drive, etc. in a dog (assuming a future dog that you'd LIKE to start in bitework)?

As for "liking" the sport itself, it will depend on the club and trainer. Each club (for all dog sports, not even just schutzhund) has a culture, and in in the end it is important to find a club with a trainer that you enjoy working with and will work with you based on your goal in the sport.

Remember that a lot of these dogs that are bred for SchH/IPO, Ring, and personal protection are valued for their quickness to react/low threshold, civil aggression, confrontation, willingness to escalate in a fight, etc. and those traits aren't usually limited to the training field. Of course a good German Shepherd knows control as well, but you will also need to work with your dog to teach him what is and is not his job, and in the end you still won’t be changing the dog’s genetics. Some of the traits that make for an amazing working dog also make him a fantastic pet, while others will make him a challenge to live with... This is just assuming you're thinking about a future protection breed... but I'm going on a bit of a tangent here. Just more info to think about!

ETA: Forgot to mention, I am talking about personally working in the sport- not sending the dog out somewhere to "learn" and come back. I would never trust that kind of plan, as you will have no clue how your dog is being treated, what methods of training they cater to, what the extents of his behavior/instinct is, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redshepherd

First thing's first though, success in the sport will very much depends on the breed and individual dog's temperament and genetics. Do you already have a dog that you'd like to start working with, or is it just a tentative question/thought? How comfortable are you with possessive aggression/resource guarding, defensive aggression, fight drive, suspicion, prey/hunt drive, etc. in a dog (assuming a future dog that you'd LIKE to start in bitework)?

---

I have a puppy who's almost 8 months old. The breed is descended from German Shepherds, and until 20 years ago, was still part of them. I'm not sure his personality is a good fit for bitework and such. He's a very friendly dog, and he's not very...aggressive/confident sometimes. Sometimes he's okay, sometimes he can be skittish. I'm sure a good part of that is he's still young and developing.

This was more the tentative phase looking toward the future. I was doing an initial look into it, because I love working with my dog, and I think well trained dogs are just fabulously impressive. Having seen a bunch of videos on the Schtutzhund dogs it looked really interesting and I think the fact that it's a variety of skills they have to do well in is fascinating to me.

Unfortunately, I only know one dog that's been schutzhund trained, and he's a robot. I've seen the videos of them and thought it was incredible how well trained they are in a variety of skills, but not sure I want my dog's personality changed all the much, particularly if it turns them into robots. I kinda like mine how he is now.

I think I may be better off looking into something that leaves the bitework out, or just continuing on my own with him.

What breed is your pup? I have seen both good and bad from individuals that have tried Schutzhund training. Those that are dedicated to it and have a dog that truly enjoys it seem to do really well, I have seen some dogs that are just as happy and loving as any other dog, but once they are on the field they are in the zone. Then on the other end (an extreme case) I worked with an individual that knew nothing about the sport or German Shepherds for that matter and decided he wanted an attack dog, he dropped over 10K on two GSDs that were supposedly from direct German Military Blood Lines and did about a month of training with them at a local club then lost interest. At that point he gave them no other outlet for their energy so, he had two dogs that knew how to bite and that was it. Needless to say the dogs ended up biting quite a few people, did some extensive damage and were ultimately put down. I work with a GSD Rescue and we get quite a few dogs that are high strung and bite, it is a lot of work to break that habit when that is all they know, so from my experience my only word of advice is don't start it if you feel you might loose interest unless you can provide another outlet for your dog. Certain trainers I have talked to will do a "personality test" with your dog and see if they feel it would be a good fit, if the dog displays too much stress they generally will say its not a good idea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jclaiborne

What breed is your pup? I have seen both good and bad from individuals that have tried Schutzhund training. Those that are dedicated to it and have a dog that truly enjoys it seem to do really well, I have seen some dogs that are just as happy and loving as any other dog, but once they are on the field they are in the zone. Then on the other end (an extreme case) I worked with an individual that knew nothing about the sport or German Shepherds for that matter and decided he wanted an attack dog, he dropped over 10K on two GSDs that were supposedly from direct German Military Blood Lines and did about a month of training with them at a local club then lost interest. At that point he gave them no other outlet for their energy so, he had two dogs that knew how to bite and that was it. Needless to say the dogs ended up biting quite a few people, did some extensive damage and were ultimately put down. I work with a GSD Rescue and we get quite a few dogs that are high strung and bite, it is a lot of work to break that habit when that is all they know, so from my experience my only word of advice is don't start it if you feel you might loose interest unless you can provide another outlet for your dog. Certain trainers I have talked to will do a "personality test" with your dog and see if they feel it would be a good fit, if the dog displays too much stress they generally will say its not a good idea.

---

He's a Berger Blanc Suiss Shepherd. I think they were first recognized as a seperate breed about 20 years ago. Before that they were simply part of the German Shepherd breed.


It's definitely not something I would start without finishing, but the more I look at it, the more I think my dog just doesn't have the personality for it.

I was watching a video by a big time dog trainer talking about what you mentioned. He basically gets a feel for the dog, and he won't train certain dogs for bitework because they just don't have it in them. You can make them do it if you really want, but it's just not their thing and you can end up really messing up the dog. He's looking for dogs that are suited for it, and able to do it without getting stressed or overly aggressive and screwed up.

I might go check out a club, but the more I look at it, the more I'm thinking it's not for us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 200xth

He's a Berger Blanc Suiss Shepherd. I think they were first recognized as a seperate breed about 20 years ago. Before that they were simply part of the German Shepherd breed.


It's definitely not something I would start without finishing, but the more I look at it, the more I think my dog just doesn't have the personality for it.

I was watching a video by a big time dog trainer talking about what you mentioned. He basically gets a feel for the dog, and he won't train certain dogs for bitework because they just don't have it in them. You can make them do it if you really want, but it's just not their thing and you can end up really messing up the dog. He's looking for dogs that are suited for it, and able to do it without getting stressed or overly aggressive and screwed up.

I might go check out a club, but the more I look at it, the more I'm thinking it's not for us.

---

Bergers are beautiful dogs! I really do think it comes down to the dog like you said. You can "force" them to do anything. Our "sister rescue" had a dog that was adopted by the Sherriff's Dept and is now actually an active K9 Unit, which was awesome, it just happened to work out. Since Shepherds are working dogs really any activity that you can provide them would be beneficial. We have seen dogs that go on to do search and rescue, therapy dogs, obstacle courses, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 200xth

I have a puppy who's almost 8 months old. The breed is descended from German Shepherds, and until 20 years ago, was still part of them. I'm not sure his personality is a good fit for bitework and such. He's a very friendly dog, and he's not very...aggressive/confident sometimes. Sometimes he's okay, sometimes he can be skittish. I'm sure a good part of that is he's still young and developing.

This was more the tentative phase looking toward the future. I was doing an initial look into it, because I love working with my dog, and I think well trained dogs are just fabulously impressive. Having seen a bunch of videos on the Schtutzhund dogs it looked really interesting and I think the fact that it's a variety of skills they have to do well in is fascinating to me.

Unfortunately, I only know one dog that's been schutzhund trained, and he's a robot. I've seen the videos of them and thought it was incredible how well trained they are in a variety of skills, but not sure I want my dog's personality changed all the much, particularly if it turns them into robots. I kinda like mine how he is now.

I think I may be better off looking into something that leaves the bitework out, or just continuing on my own with him.

---

Are you working on basic obedience yet?
Just good recall, along with reliable sit, down, and a good heel on leash will go far.

Jeff Gelmann (spell?) of SolidK9Training has many videos.
I like him a lot for just good basic, easy-to-live-with dog behavoir.
We have three dogs; without the basics life would be chaos.
Even with just the basics, and my girls are sometimes still sloppy about it... the neighbours are impressed! I get compliments all the time when out with them.

I would NOT do this on your own or even consider it. The ring sports are a huge undertaking. Schutzhund training is rather demanding, and it goes beyond the OB and bite work. You will get involved in tracking as well if you are planning to compete. It is very involved but can be fun if you have the time.

I have been involved in training for 16 years and have competed in Personal Protection (P/P) trials, PSA trials which I was able to title my first Presa Canario, and French Ring.

Obedience (OB) is ALWAYS the first area to train, and without control of a dog you have no business doing bite work.

Even with full OB a bad trainer can ruin a dog with too much pressure, or working the wrong drives.

You also need to realize that doing a ring sport is not an automatic guarantee that your dog will protect you at home. Shutzhund is a routine and I've seen dogs run off a PSA field when over pressured.

A good decoy will switch gears and give the dog an easy bite, which basically makes the exercise a zero in PSA, but the dog doesn't get ruined by pressure.

It's a very fine line with some dogs. So decide what you are looking for. A home protection dog is much different than a "sport dog". The sports are more involved and precise. A French Ring III dog is incredible to watch and you can switch from sports to home protection easier than home protection to sport.

You most certainly can send your dog to be trained by a reputable trainer and there are many around. You need to develop a relationship first, and be prepared to follow through on your end with continued training after the groundwork is put down. 50% of dog training is PEOPLE training. A bad handler can blow a competition as easily as a dog can. So while you may have to send your dog in, it is best to be involved from the start. That is not the same as doing it yourself though, you will need the help of a good decoy/trainer or both depending on the options you have.

Insurance companies are ignorant and have no clue that a properly trained protection dog is far more reliable and secure than the average dog left in the front yard of a home.

Well trained dogs are confident and secure. They know a threat VS a non threat and don't bite out of fear. It is proven, and I can prove it still with the dogs I have now.

I could go on forever on this subject but don't have the time.

This is my first Presa doing a courage test a Red Star Kennel. This dog was bomb proof with evrey family member including two very young children and with invited guests in the home.

Though the test looks harsh, it is something a dog without the right nerves would bail out on. Our pit bull that we owned during the same period of time was not suited for this. She was an obedience titled dog, but never took to bite work.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsaSSAGJIXE


This is our second presa that would have been an excellent trial dog. Because of kids and multiple activities we have not been able to dedicate enough time to competing with him. That is something to keep in mind. DO YOU HAVE THE TIME?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1Tmj4w9Dyo

If you do have the time, it is a very rewarding hobby! But it is still one to take seriously. IF you have a dog that is suited for this stuff I suggest you go through the motions and get some OB titles on your dog. If AKC still offers a K-9 Good Citizen title, it's something insurance companies may like to see.

You also have no obligation telling any insurance company you are competing unless they ask you.

Treat your dog properly. If you have young kids over, crate the animal. Have a secure, fenced yard and don't do anything questionable with your dog outside of the training field or at trials.

Oh man, berger blanc suisse are beautiful dogs. From what I know, like your pup, berger blanc suisse lines and temperaments are just much more mellow and "friendly", relatively washed out working drive and protective aggression (if any at all). Despite being considered GSD in the past, they're really a very different breed now compared to GSD working lines.

You don't have to worry about a dog turning into a robot due to a sport though. Bitework won't essentially change a dog's genetic temperament and drive (unless done unethically). That robot dog probably originally had a dead-serious and focused temperament when it comes to his work, whether or not he acts goofy off the field, which is why he is successful in the sport.

If you're looking for a formal activity to actively work with your pup, there are a bunch of very rewarding "well-trained/obedient" show-type sports to do other than bitework. You guys can definitely look into rally obedience, agility, and disc. You might also be interested in herding or nosework too.

Wow. Well, I had no clue. The BBS is one beautiful dog!

All my dogs have been strays or shelter mutts, but last year, we took in a mastiffy girl, and after research, I was planning for a Presa, or Cane from a breeder for our next dog. I do really like the mastiff breeds.

Nevertheless, a volunteer stint at our local pound gave me a soft spot for the Nordics. We had a girl in who was either an Alaskan Husky, or a Siberian husky (not sure which - she had an unusual red tint in her fur). I still wish we had adopted her. The only thing I don't like about the huskies/malamutes is the supposed need to always keep them on a leash. We have a large acreage outside of town that we like to hike, and it is preferable, if the dogs can just run.

Off to do more research on the berger blanc suisse...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by distaff

Are you working on basic obedience yet?
Just good recall, along with reliable sit, down, and a good heel on leash will go far.

Jeff Gelmann (spell?) of SolidK9Training has many videos.
I like him a lot for just good basic, easy-to-live-with dog behavoir.
We have three dogs; without the basics life would be chaos.
Even with just the basics, and my girls are sometimes still sloppy about it... the neighbours are impressed! I get compliments all the time when out with them.

---

Yep. Been working on basic obedience since I got him at 2 months old. At 3 months old, I started watching the Michael Ellis videos and have been following those ever since.


I didn't do everything quite right, didn't really understand a couple of concepts at the time (mainly the massive importance of engagement traing) and I have to fix a few things now, but he's done alright and I think we have a decent foundation to work from.


He knows his basics...sit, stand, down. He can stay for a decent amount of time. If there's no one around, I can have him sit or stay in place, walk around 40 or 50 feet away, have him sit, stand, down from whereever I left him, and he'll usually be good til he's released. He'll come running straight to me when he's released and it's reward time.

Recall is erratic if I'm just letting him poke around free, but we're working on it. He can heel on both sides with no leash, although this is not super reliable yet. He's making good progress on it. Loose-leash walking on either side is very good...just taking him for a basic walk is not an issue.


The main thing I made a mistake on is the engagement and focus part. It was so easy teaching him to sit and down early on I think I got too caught up in behaviors and didn't concentrate enough on focus. That's the big thing I'm working on with him now. Not really any new behaviors, just keeping him focused and engaged with me and reinforcing the current ones. He's a puppy still, 7.5 months, so it's hit or miss with the focus sometimes, but at his age I expect butterflies and smelly things to be interesting so I'm not too worried. It's getting better slowly and I expect it will continue to get better as he gets older and we continue working on it.


And same here...even with just these few basic things, people compliment him all the time on how well behaved he is and how well he listens. As his focus and engagement with me improves, and other people, dogs, etc become less interesting, we'll start being able to make big progress on his behaviors more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gio

I would NOT do this on your own or even consider it. The ring sports are a huge undertaking. Schutzhund training is rather demanding, and it goes beyond the OB and bite work. You will get involved in tracking as well if you are planning to compete. It is very involved but can be fun if you have the time.

I have been involved in training for 16 years and have competed in Personal Protection (P/P) trials, PSA trials which I was able to title my first Presa Canario, and French Ring.

Obedience (OB) is ALWAYS the first area to train, and without control of a dog you have no business doing bite work.

Even with full OB a bad trainer can ruin a dog with too much pressure, or working the wrong drives.

You also need to realize that doing a ring sport is not an automatic guarantee that your dog will protect you at home. Shutzhund is a routine and I've seen dogs run off a PSA field when over pressured.

A good decoy will switch gears and give the dog an easy bite, which basically makes the exercise a zero in PSA, but the dog doesn't get ruined by pressure.

It's a very fine line with some dogs. So decide what you are looking for. A home protection dog is much different than a "sport dog". The sports are more involved and precise. A French Ring III dog is incredible to watch and you can switch from sports to home protection easier than home protection to sport.

You most certainly can send your dog to be trained by a reputable trainer and there are many around. You need to develop a relationship first, and be prepared to follow through on your end with continued training after the groundwork is put down. 50% of dog training is PEOPLE training. A bad handler can blow a competition as easily as a dog can. So while you may have to send your dog in, it is best to be involved from the start. That is not the same as doing it yourself though, you will need the help of a good decoy/trainer or both depending on the options you have.

Insurance companies are ignorant and have no clue that a properly trained protection dog is far more reliable and secure than the average dog left in the front yard of a home.

Well trained dogs are confident and secure. They know a threat VS a non threat and don't bite out of fear. It is proven, and I can prove it still with the dogs I have now.

I could go on forever on this subject but don't have the time.

This is my first Presa doing a courage test a Red Star Kennel. This dog was bomb proof with evrey family member including two very young children and with invited guests in the home.

Though the test looks harsh, it is something a dog without the right nerves would bail out on. Our pit bull that we owned during the same period of time was not suited for this. She was an obedience titled dog, but never took to bite work.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsaSSAGJIXE


This is our second presa that would have been an excellent trial dog. Because of kids and multiple activities we have not been able to dedicate enough time to competing with him. That is something to keep in mind. DO YOU HAVE THE TIME?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1Tmj4w9Dyo

If you do have the time, it is a very rewarding hobby! But it is still one to take seriously. IF you have a dog that is suited for this stuff I suggest you go through the motions and get some OB titles on your dog. If AKC still offers a K-9 Good Citizen title, it's something insurance companies may like to see.

You also have no obligation telling any insurance company you are competing unless they ask you.

Treat your dog properly. If you have young kids over, crate the animal. Have a secure, fenced yard and don't do anything questionable with your dog outside of the training field or at trials.

---

I have plenty of time for any of this, I don't however, think my dog would pass that courage test. He just doesn't seem like he's designed that way. The more I read on Schutzhund, the more I come to the conclusion I will probably be looking for something else, something that doesn't include bitework.

Thanks for all the info. :)

Figured I would post a couple of pics. Camera is terrible so they're not great quality, but here he is:

http://i.imgur.com/bgF8Cl6l.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/FyCsYBll.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/enfYHGEl.jpg

Good lookin pup you got there!!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 200xth

I have plenty of time for any of this, I don't however, think my dog would pass that courage test. He just doesn't seem like he's designed that way. The more I read on Schutzhund, the more I come to the conclusion I will probably be looking for something else, something that doesn't include bitework.

Thanks for all the info. :)

---

OK,

But did you see the difference between the first video and the second?

I purposely showed the RAW courage test first and then the next dog, the grandson of the first one, was training sport.

We were able to compete in French Ring with dog #1 but switching from P/P to sport work is more difficult.

Now if you notice the "game" the second dog was playing with the bite sleeve on the long lead, you see he gets to use his prey drive and play drive to work into eventually biting a sleeve. The sleeve can be viewed as a tug toy by a dog, and GSD's and Mals will play all day long. Eventually a stick or whip can be added to put some pressure on the dog.

The Presa in video 1 was in almost 100% defensive drive or fight drive. I've found the bull breeds at least the ones with some mastiff in them don't enjoy long drawn out prey drive trials. There are some great pit bulls in California that have titled in French Ring III so bull breeds can do sport but the presas I've owned respond to fight but will lose interest in play prey sooner than a GSD or Mal.

Again, I could go on forever, but my point is, your dog may be able to bite in a sport. Usually the first level of any of the traditional sports is fairly easy with bite work but the OB is pretty tough.

A Brevet in French Ring is pretty easy with proper OB. Your dog doesn't have to be overly committed to the bite.

Mondio Ring is pretty fun too.

But don't ever be bummed if your dog doesn't handle pressure or bite a decoy. Even folks that pay big $$ for working dogs often go through 1 or 2 before they get something "hard".

Having been out of sport competition for a bit, I can still enjoy my dog. He is the #2 dog in the videos. He is fully trained but living a fun stress free home life. We still train when we can but just for fun.

Here is my boy still working his bite. I think this was a year or 2 ago.

The decoy and female trainer are our trainers. I was not holding him here because I had a serious leg injury and was recovering.

This is still a sport style exercise with a bite, a release and re-bite. Very simple and fun for the dog, with just a little pressure.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDHZJPtp6f4

OK, enough about my stuff LOL!

You have a cute pup there and the fact you are looking to enjoy its company in some venue beyond a leash walk, will bond the two of you for life!

I wish you luck in whatever activity you guys choose.