My "theory"

I have a theory about feeding live animals to your snakes:

In the wild the snakes have to search and hunt for their food right? So since we keep our snakes in not so "HUGE" enclosures most of the time, it would be unsafe for the snake to feed them in their enclosure since that animal will most likely find the snake faster than the snake will find it or theyll find each other at the same time(which the snake will mostly likely kill it if they do meet at the same time), but if the animal finds the snake first there is a risk of being attacked by the animal isnt there? Well what i was gettin to is that i think if u have a large enough feeding enclosure(like a huge one!) than it would be safe to feed live wouldnt it be?(i still dont feed live tho)

well I would like to know what everyone else thinks about my little theory?

Feeding live isn't nearly as dangerous as most people are brainwashed to believe as long as certain steps are taken. But in the end, p/k and frozen are both way easier and safer.

I believe that wild snakes are also attacked by their prey, albeit not so often as captive snakes because of the reason you stated. If the snake misses, the prey animal isn't just going to sit there and wait for the snake to strike again, it will defend itself.

Ditto most of what shelby says plus, in the wild a snake can get away if the prey retaliates, in an enclosure this is not the case.

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Originally Posted by Jase

Feeding live isn't nearly as dangerous as most people are brainwashed to believe as long as certain steps are taken.

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I wouldn't say most people are brainwashed. At least from what I've heard from people on this site, they just don't want to take the chance, however big or small it is. That's how I feel anyway. There have been many debates on this topic on this message board. In my opinion, f/t is safer and easier, as you said. And I think it's a more humane for the mice/rats too, and my snakes take it readily. So feeding f/t is just what works best for me. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and can make their own decision in regards to their pets. I just hope if anyone feeds live they take every possible safety precaution.

In the wild they don't eat as much, so they are less likely to refuse food (this is for all snakes, not jsut BP's). So, it is less likely the meal will hurt them, but most WC animals do have battle scars.

I see nothing wrong in any of the three feeding options. No one can dispute that feeding FT and PK are safer and easier than feeding live. Feeding live however is not the great danger that many make it out to be. If you know what you are doing and are following proper live feeding procedures, there is very minimal risk involved.

I think you only need to see the damage a mouse or rat can do one time before you realize that feeding live prey is just not worth the risk. Sure, most of the time, things will go fine, and there will be no problem, but it only takes one bad experience to injure and permanently scar your snake. For me, that's not a risk I'm willing to take. Smulkin was in our local petstore lastnight and saw a baby burm whose head had been mauled by live mouse. Not a pretty sight.

I have kept Balls for 10 years. Feeding live has a risk, but if you follow a few simple procedures the risk is minimized greatly. Don't get me wrong, I am not against FT or PK in any way. I encourage all new snake owners to feed FT or PK. I am only saying that people have completely over blown the dangers of feeding live. Due mainly to inexperienced herpers making preventable mistakes.

Here's a few thoughts that I have on the subject (if anyone cares .... LOL) ...

1. In the wild ball pythons are actually most often "sit and wait" predators, "ambush predators", or "predators of opportunity" rather than hunters. Most heavy bodied snakes (ball pythons are considered heavy bodied) will rather wait for food to come to it rather than go out looking. Of course if they come across the occasional rodent nest while looking for a borrow, they will certainly chow down. But in general it's unlikely that they "hunt"

2. Captivity is not the wild, so nothing about how they are in the wild actually applies.

3. Been feeding a very large collection of ball pythons live for 10+ years. Rats, mice, gerbils if needed and I've never had a snake bit or "chewed up". I even leave rodents in over night with snakes worth $10,000 and up and have no worries. A few graphic pictures on the internet of snakes chewed up by rodents left in their cage without food for weeks on end vs. that kind of experience and I can safely say that supervised feeding of live prey is just as safe as feeding FT or PK. When you see snakes chewed up by rodents it's because of piss poor snake owners, not because feeding live is dangerous.

4. To me, live feeding is just as humane as feeding PK or FT. In the end the rodent is DEAD and that is sad, but without it the snake would be dead and the rodent would be fed to something else. I think it's silly to say that smashing a rodent against a wall causes it to suffer less than the snake doing what nature designed it to do. Any kind of death is suffering whether is by Co2, whacking, cervical dislocation, or asphyxiation. Arguing about degrees of suffering just kinda sounds silly to me. If you don't want rodents to suffer, buy a leopard gecko.

5. Feeding 200+ ball pythons live food takes me between 1 and 2 hours. If I had to feed them PK it would probably take me at least 5 times that to dispatch and dangle all of those rodents. And on top of that, if I had to thaw them too? LOL ... no thanks. Even then, many of them would just not eat. Feeding live prey all of my snakes eat every week without question (excecpt the snakes being cycled for breeding). So if you think feeding FT or PK is just as easy or easier, I would have to disagree.

6. I've observed thousands of live feedings and I can tell you for sure that if the snake does strike and miss the rodent, the rodent doesn't "retaliate" ... LOL ... the rodent gets scared and looks for a place to hide and by the time it realizes whats going on it's dead. Usually in my collection if the snake doesn't hit the rat in the first 10 seconds, the rat will end up in the hide box with the snake. Most of the time the snake will leave and sit behind the hide box (maybe or maybe not going for the rat later) and sometimes I'll find the snake and the rat curled up together inside the hide.

7. "Battle scars" on wild caught animals are more likely from struggles with predators or a collectors snare rope and hook than from a food item.

I promote feeding in a way that works best for the owner and the snake(s). Over the years, I have done FT, PK, and live and it turns out that live works best for me. What I take issue with is people regurgitating so-called "facts" that they've heard on the internet when they have no practical experience with the subject matter. If feeding pre-killed or frozen thawed works for you, great! But please don't tell other people that feeding live will cause their snake to get chewed up, isn't safe, or isn't as easy, cause it's just not true.

-adam

Excellent post, Adam!!

heres my humble opinion on the matter...

I started out feeding live. Sometimes the snake doesnt get a good grip on the prey and the prey scratches or bites the snake constricing it. I have personally seen my snake get scratched (not enough to bleed) and I have heard of the snake being bitten while constricting. Albiet, a rare thing for the snake to become injured, but why risk it? If the snake will take dead prey, there is no reason to feed live.

Just to establish where I stand on this, I believe feeding f/t or p/k is safer and a better choice for most (especially new) keepers, but am not completely anti-live, particularly with good feeders, "clean" rodents, and experienced keepers.

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To me, live feeding is just as humane as feeding PK or FT. In the end the rodent is DEAD and that is sad, but without it the snake would be dead and the rodent would be fed to something else.

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If you are breeding prey, yes it would just become food for something else, but pet store rodents often become pets if not fed to reptiles. Further, cervical dislocation generally means ~1 sec of pain, whacking generally takes up to a few seconds to kill or desensitize (with a second whack killing), CO2 depending on concentration generally knocks out within 10 seconds at most, and constriction can take up to or even more than a minute, depending on the angle of capture, intensity of the squeeze, etc. I'm not saying that live=evil or anything, but it is a slower and more painful way to die for the rodent.

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I've observed thousands of live feedings and I can tell you for sure that if the snake does strike and miss the rodent, the rodent doesn't "retaliate"

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I have seen both mice and rats fight to free themselves once struck if hit at a bad angle and constricted around the lower body -- biting on the head repeatedly until stopped by the keeper, and I have seen mice run and attack a snake behind the head when it missed on the first strike. I don't suppose I've witnessed quite "thousands" of live feedings, but it didn't take that many to observe these behaviors, even if they are less common than cowering. This is why it is important to supervise, not because a leg might get caught on a tooth or something.

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I promote feeding in a way that works best for the owner and the snake(s). Over the years, I have done FT, PK, and live and it turns out that live works best for me. What I take issue with is people regurgitating so-called "facts" that they've heard on the internet when they have no practical experience with the subject matter. If feeding pre-killed or frozen thawed works for you, great! But please don't tell other people that feeding live will cause their snake to get chewed up, isn't safe, or isn't as easy, cause it's just not true.

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I agree that different methods work better for different keepers, and if live works best for you, then that's fine. I also agree that it is better to get your advice from experienced keepers or vets, in general, though I have seen better advice come from newbie keepers than from ill-informed vets and poor but long-term keepers on occasion. Feeding live is considerably more likely to result in a chewed-up snake than feeding dead prey (even if live doesn't result in attacks or defense wounds >99% of the time), is less safe in terms of wounds as well as internal and external parasites and germs, and is easier for some keepers in the sense that it requires more prep time but no interaction or supervision and is easier to maintain stock without having to breed. Does this mean that every keeper has to do things exactly the same way and follow a prescribed formula? Not at all, but it does mean that for inexperienced, jumpy, forgetful/inattentive, or particularly young keepers, I will absolutely recommend f/t or p/k.

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Originally Posted by green_man

Albiet, a rare thing for the snake to become injured, but why risk it? If the snake will take dead prey, there is no reason to feed live.

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Excellent point, greenman!

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Originally Posted by green_man

seen my snake get scratched (not enough to bleed) and I have heard of the snake being bitten while constricting.

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No blood from the scratch and you've heard of (but not actually seen for your self) a bite once ... hmmm ... and that's enough for you to decide that there is risk?

Certainly not knocking your choice, just trying to figure out where all of these "live prey" phobias come from.

If I told you that I've heard of (not seen for my self) teeth and claws from a pre-killed rodent tearing the esophageal tract of a ball python and killing it, would that even things out and make pre-killed just as risky? :?:

-adam

adam- explain to me the advantage to feeding live vs dead. I just dont get why if there is a potential risk you would still feed live if your snake will take dead. What is the gain? Even if I am only avoiding a 1% chance of my snake being injured, I will opt to avoid it when the other options work just as well.

edit: not to mention feeding frozen thawed eliminates many if not all parasites.

I can see some one in your position not taking the time to thaw out 1000 mice, or whatever the case may be, but for the average keeper, its no trouble.

I'm going to warn everyone not to get personal on this one. We all have our preferances and our reasons for them. A healthy debate is one thing, but a personal attack is quite another.

I certainly hope I am not out of line, if I am, I apollogize Adam...

I just don't see the potential risk? 10 years of feeding many many ball pythons (we're talking tens of thousands of feedings) and I've never had one bite, one scratch, nothing ... if there is risk I think I would have seen it by now? I can't see it being 1%, not even .01% .... trust me, when feeding snakes that cost 10, 20, 50 thousand each I would not feed live if I thought there was risk. Feeding live is really no big deal!

The advantage is that my snakes eat more consistently than when I used to use PK and FT ... every week without a doubt. I don't have to waste time dangling for thawing rodents. If a snake won't eat because of shedding or breeding, I can offer it the same rat in a week. And in my personal opinion (which I have no evidence to back up because it's just an observation) my snakes seem to "enjoy" live prey. They are more eager to come out and eat and hit more aggressively when a live meal is offered than when a PK or FT is. On top of that, have you ever tried to get a hatchling ball python to take it's first meal as a PK or FT? It's not fun at all! :mrgreen:


-adam

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Originally Posted by green_man

I certainly hope I am not out of line, if I am, I apollogize Adam...

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Oh no way ... this is fun! ... I really don't care how anyone else feeds, I just don't like to see posts that discourage other keepers or potentially new keepers from feeding live without any evidence to support it.

A picture off of the internet or "I heard about this thing one time" is not evidence to me ... if you've seen proof that there is risk in feeding live in your own collection, let's hear it. I'll listen!

-adam

I see those as valid reasons for feed live, I agree with you there. All I am saying is for people owning a few snakes, that WILL eat frozen thawed with no problems, I will personaly encourage them to do so if not purely for the fact that freezing kills parasites.

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Originally Posted by green_man

purely for the fact that freezing kills parasites.

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I hate to do this to you, but that's also a myth ... It is EXTREMELY rare for transference of parasites to occur between a rodent and a ball python. Snake mites can be common, but since snake mites do not actually prey on rodents the transference is strictly coincidental and could just as likely come from a water bowl, hide box, or bedding purchased at the same place that your rodent was.

As far as internal parasites are concerned, again, transference is rare. There are actually no documented cases that I am aware of and I even went as far as contacting the AARAVA several years ago to see if they had any information. That said, it IS well documented that amoebo-flagellates can survive freezing within a host body. I am sure that there are also species of worms that can survive freezing and can research that for you if you'd like.

Sorry about that.

-adam

sorry for what?
this is turning out to be an informative discussion...
Now you have me interested in researching the matter more...
I still beleive there is risk in feeding live. I am happy you have had no problems...

OK, just want to remind everyone, lets not start argueing over this topic, and I would also like to say, if you do a search on site, you will find many threads about this same thing. Now it is my turn to give my 2 cents worth.

I understand there are many ways keepers "decide" to feed thier snake collection. And that "some" bp's or other snakes wont eat anything but live. And, thats fine too.

But, as far as the comment being made about the pic online of the bp that was chewed up horribly and the person also stated they have never heard of any snake getting bit, muchless thier own. And why would someones word of mouth influence another not to feed live. Well, I have had snakes since I was 10, I am 31 now. In my collection now, I have a boa that eats p/k, I dont mind killing the rodent for him. Think about it, something had to die to feed us humans right. But as far as live feeding, I have 3 snakes I have tried to switch over to p/k or f/t.. I have tried since I got the snakes. Since none of my bp's will eat either p/k or f/t, I must feed live. I will tell you from my experience, they can get bit and even tho your snakes have not as of yet, there is a real possibility. I NEVER leave the live rodent in the snakes cage over night, not going to take that risk, but I will say this, one of my bp's have gotten bitten while constricting its prey, even with me standing right there to watch and interfere with the biting the prey does. Now, mind you, I was able to stop my bp from being injured badly, but still, she got bit. After she got the rodent down, I had to put neosporin on her wound to keep it from getting infected, this had to be done for days, till it healed up. The wound itself was not deep, but the rodent did drawn some blood. I felt horrible after that, and still do. I would much rather all my snakes be on p/k or f/t just for thier saftey and my piece of mind. When I am asked about feeding methods, I always say that p/k or f/t is the best way to go, esp. for new keepers and thier snakes, because it spares the keeper the bad feelings for the snake after being bitten (guilt is not fun to experience when you know it was your fault anyhow), and a possible vet bill for a snake who has an infected wound that otherwise would not have gotten it to begin with had the snake been eating p/k or f/t.

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

OK, just want to remind everyone, lets not start argueing over this topic

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I didn't think anyone was arguing, it thought this was going great!

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

I will tell you from my experience, they can get bit and even tho your snakes have not as of yet, there is a real possibility.

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I have had 200+ snakes fed every week for the last year, some of them two or three feedings in a day. Thats easily 10,000 live feedings in 2004 give or take. If it's a possibility then when's it going to happen? That 10,000 feedings is just for the last year, now factor in the 10 thousand from the year before that and the year before that. Ya know, winning the lottery is a possibility too, but I'm pretty realistic about my chances.

I respect your 21 years experience with snakes, I've got a little more than that myself and like you have seen a lot over the years. I'm also very sorry that your snake took a small bite, but it did survive right? Your three live eaters have never been chewed up or needed surgery or anti-biotics or killed? I closed the tip of a snakes tail in the screen top of an aquarium once and it had a small cut, but that doesn't mean that I tell people that there is risk in using aquariums. I've had snakes burned accidentally on CHE, I would never tell people that they shouldn't use those because of the potential risk.

I would much rather share my experience and tell people that they can be successful either way if they excercise caution and take good care of their animals.

There is no more risk in feeding a ball python live prey then there is in the general keeping of any animal.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I would much rather share my experience and tell people that they can be successful either way if they excercise caution and take good care of their animals.

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Ah ha! And there is the key! Exercising caution and taking good care of your animals.

My main worry was that someone would read "It's okay to feed live prey" and think they could just throw a mouse in with their snake for an indefinite amount of time and not keep an eye on things and everything would be fine. It's important to be cautious and aware of what's happening with your snake. For instance, if the snake is getting ready to shed and it's eye's are clouded over, or if the snake's vision is impaired by dents or wrinkles as Angela's is at the moment, then obviously you wouldn't want to throw a live mouse in with it, especially if it's a very active mouse.

Adam, we certainly appreciate you being here and sharing your years of experience with us, but many of our members are new to snake keeping, and it's a good idea to keep them in mind when you're posting, especially on an issue like this one.

no

Edit: that was abrupt. I disagree and all the reasons have been posted.

Chances of live mouse injuring your snake vs chances of dead mouse injuring your snake would likely be polar opposites. The difference between the two is inarguable despite any anecdotal evidence of extreme rare cases (protruding mouse rib eviscerates snake ZOMG!! etc).

Just because it CAN happen doesn't mean it WILL. But you can eliminate that CAN.

But if you'd rather remove that crapshoot from the equation . . . .

F/T allows buying bulk and storing odor-free and not having to feed them to boot.

Pet store yesterday for crickets - two beauty lil burm albino babies, one looked like it had mud or mulch on its head and the girl working there saw my furled brow and told me point blank "mouse did it - got the other one too". They are fed supervised since these babies are the result of the owners personal breeding stock and he's still primal on caring for them (hehe you should see his Beardie regimen and how he hammers employees to follow it). Every once in a while an extra "feisty" mouse just doesnt agree with dying - go figure. Both snakes were a bit torn up but otherwise ok (bite near the lip on one looked like it might be trouble down the road) even though the worse of the two took a hit right smack on the top of the head. Injuries arent really all that rare and you will be hard pressed to find a keeper readily admit to injuries of this kind as it is rather viewed as a self-inflicted black eye. While you can easily make a very good argument about why you should NOT feed live i have yet to hear a compelling one on why you SHOULD feed live.

But to each his own

EDIT2: It filtered out "cr4pshoot" !?!?

Adam Says:
Your three live eaters have never been chewed up or needed surgery or anti-biotics or killed?

My 3 live eaters have not been chewed up to the point of that pic thats online of the bp who was chewed very badly, nor needed surgery or antibiotics. But, I have a sister who has a bp, her bp was bitten, she ignored it apparently and thought the snake would be OK cause it seemed superficial, a few weeks later an HUGE abcess appeared at the bite site. She took her snake in to the vet, and it needed to have the abcess drained (minor surgical thing) and had to be on anti biotics after that. So- she incurred a vet bill that was not neccessary and suffering to the snake.

I think it is good that you have not had problems with live feeding with all the snakes you feed, but how do you actually know your snake is not getting bitten (most superficial wounds are hard to see, esp if there is no blood)if you leave a live rodent in with it and walk away over night? I am not attacking you verbally, just curious if you really are sure none of your snakes have been bitten and maybe you have been lucky enough that theres been no abcesses that came from them.

I agree with you that there is many ways of feeding, and we all have to do what we have to do, but there is a real danger to feeding live and I think all keepers that do so, should openly admit, there is always that possibility of your snake getting injured.


Adam Says:
I have had 200+ snakes fed every week for the last year, some of them two or three feedings in a day.

Not sure if I misunderstand this... does that mean some of your snakes are eating 2 or 3 times a day, like breakfast and dinner or breakfast, lunch and dinner? :wink:


Adam Says:
Ya know, winning the lottery is a possibility too, but I'm pretty realistic about my chances.

So, are you saying that yes you could win the lottery, and yes, realistically, your snake could be bitten?


Adam Says:
I respect your 21 years experience with snakes, I've got a little more than that myself and like you have seen a lot over the years.

I too respect your years of working with herps. I think it is always neat to be able to work with these animals and have the knowledge from working with them.


Adam Says:
I closed the tip of a snakes tail in the screen top of an aquarium once and it had a small cut, but that doesn't mean that I tell people that there is risk in using aquariums.

Ouch- poor thing. But no, that dont mean to tell someone not to use aquariums.


Adam Says:
I've had snakes burned accidentally on CHE, I would never tell people that they shouldn't use those because of the potential risk.

How have you had a snake get burned with one of those? I use them for several of my species, and never had one get burned, but my CHE is not inside the enclosure either. I would not ever tell anyone not to use a CHE, but I do warn not to put them in the enclosure.[/b]

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

F/T allows buying bulk and storing odor-free and not having to feed them to boot.

.....

i have yet to hear a compelling one on why you SHOULD feed live.

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I have my live rodents delivered once a week (in bulk) ... no odor and no feeding to boot.

I am not arguing or even suggesting that anyone SHOULD feed live, I think that you're missing the point.

That said I have pointed out several reasons why I feel live feeding is advantageous (better more consisten feeding response, less time consuming, animals instinctual preference, reusable food items (less waste) ... etc)

My point is that if someone personally has never had a snake INJURED by being fed a live rodent how can they tell other people that they shouldn't feed live because their snakes could get hurt or because there is risk? Because someone told them it is true? Because they saw a pic of a chewed up snake on the intenet and do not know the story behind the scenes? Because their local pet store has a snake in it with a bite on the lip? That's like me telling people that they should take the bus instead of drive in a car because I saw an accident on the highway.

For every injury, horror story, or internet picture there are millions of successful live feedings! As a matter of fact I think it's pretty safe to say that more snakes in captivity are fed live than FT or PK by an order of magnitude when you consider all of the breeding operations out there.

I'm not arguing against feeding FT or PK. I'm not even encouraging people to feed live. Just trying to relay the truth.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Smynx

Adam, we certainly appreciate you being here and sharing your years of experience with us, but many of our members are new to snake keeping, and it's a good idea to keep them in mind when you're posting, especially on an issue like this one.

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I understand that and respect that. I guess I give newbies more credit than I should? I like to believe that people in general have good judgement and ask questions before jumping in. At least that's been my experience in this hobby.

-adam

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My point is that if someone personally has never had a snake INJURED by being fed a live rodent how can they tell other people that they shouldn't feed live because their snakes could get hurt or because there is risk?

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Right - because there is a risk.

That's all I am trying to say in the end, bro - that there is a risk and folks should be aware that it is not an imaginary one. That's all I am trying to say. I respect your opinion and that you are raising valid points regarding expediency etc in caring for such numbers - in your shoes I could not bring myself to distro 200+ f/t by myself - it would be entirely impractical.

I am EXTREMELY relieved that we've made it this far in this exchange without anyone screaming about their "mad herp skillz0rz" or flaming, bashing and denigrating others for their opinions and practices so kudos to all in that regard.

(if you want to lighten your load I'd be glad to take a few off your hands hehe - Smynx has no idea how close she came to burm ownership after I saw the two who'd been nibbled in the store yesterday)

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

But, I have a sister who has a bp, her bp was bitten, she ignored it apparently and thought the snake would be OK cause it seemed superficial, a few weeks later an HUGE abcess appeared at the bite site. She took her snake in to the vet, and it needed to have the abcess drained (minor surgical thing) and had to be on anti biotics after that. So- she incurred a vet bill that was not neccessary and suffering to the snake.

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It sucks that it happened, but your reference is lacking too much detail to be persuasive ... How long was the rodent in with the snake, was it appropriately sized, etc?

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

I think it is good that you have not had problems with live feeding with all the snakes you feed, but how do you actually know your snake is not getting bitten (most superficial wounds are hard to see, esp if there is no blood)if you leave a live rodent in with it and walk away over night? I am not attacking you verbally, just curious if you really are sure none of your snakes have been bitten and maybe you have been lucky enough that there's been no abcesses that came from them.

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Sometimes overnight yes. And I am 100% sure that my snakes are not getting bitten. I handle and inspect my snakes constantly ... always looking for pieces of stuck shed, examining their patterns, weighing females, checking males for sperm plugs ... I know each one of the snakes in my collection in detail and take a lot of pride in the time I spend with them. If there was a scratch on one, I would know it.

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

I agree with you that there is many ways of feeding, and we all have to do what we have to do, but there is a real danger to feeding live and I think all keepers that do so, should openly admit, there is always that possibility of your snake getting injured.

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If I had evidence to support your statement I would be the first person to admit it, but the numbers speak for themselves.

There are many things in this world that have risk even if it is very slight but that is no reason to advocate not doing them. Every year there is an extremely small number of people that are injured or even die choking on an aspirn, but that's not going to stop the general public from taking them.

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

Not sure if I misunderstand this... does that mean some of your snakes are eating 2 or 3 times a day, like breakfast and dinner or breakfast, lunch and dinner? :wink:

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Yup. sometimes with pancake syrup. :mrgreen:

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

So, are you saying that yes you could win the lottery, and yes, realistically, your snake could be bitten?

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Nice try slick ... LOL .... but after 33 years on this earth, I can guarentee that no matter how many lottery tickets I buy, I will not win :p

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

How have you had a snake get burned with one of those?

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Had the screen top off the tank and the CHE and housing sitting on it's side on a table. The snake was sitting about a foot away on the table too while i was changing out some newspaper ... then I smelt something funny. Talk about upset ... I was a wreck after that one.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

That's all I am trying to say in the end, bro - that there is a risk and folks should be aware that it is not an imaginary one. That's all I am trying to say.

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And all I'm trying to say is that anyone can claim there is risk in ANYTHING. Feeding live is no different than feeding any other way. You have to be responsible. If you leave a PK or FT rodent in your snakes cage for 2 weeks it will kill your snake from the bacteria. There's some risk, but people are smarter than that. Well, people can be smart with feeding live too!

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

(if you want to lighten your load I'd be glad to take a few off your hands hehe - Smynx has no idea how close she came to burm ownership after I saw the two who'd been nibbled in the store yesterday)

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Anytime you want to come out and help on "big cleaning day" (when I wash all the boxes, water bowl, and hides) you're more than welcome. I'd even send you home with a gift! WV isn't too far and I could ALWAYS use a hand. LOL

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I like to believe that people in general have good judgement and ask questions before jumping in. At least that's been my experience in this hobby.

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Unfortunately, Adam, that's not always true. Not all newcomers, or "newbies" as you call them (I personally don't like that label), do a lot of research before buying reptiles. Most "newbies" get their snakes from pet stores and are told to feed the snake a mouse every week or so. Pet stores also like to sell newbies heat rocks and don't know the least thing about humidity requirements. The members we have here come here looking for advice and wanting to learn as much as they can about their animals. Our job is to give them as much information as we can so that they can become responsible, experienced herpers. So it's not that don't have good judgment, it's just that they don't always have all the information they need in order to exercise good judgment.

Adam Says:
It sucks that it happened, but your reference is lacking too much detail to be persuasive ... How long was the rodent in with the snake, was it appropriately sized, etc?

Her snake at the time, was exactly 28 inches, it was left in with a mouse of appropriate size relative to what it should be eating. The bp also had never missed a meal, was a great feeder. My sister left the rodent in over night because she said she did not have time to sit and "babysit" a snakes feeding, but she did also put apple and seed in for the mouse, so I know it did not go after the snake cause it was hungry. The snake was bit during constriction. And I know this because my sister happened to come home and walk by the cage the min the snake decided it was going to go after the mouse to eat.

I think we would be niave to believe everything we hear, but I hear many examples of snakes being injured by live prey from people I know and trust. Its not just seeing a pic or two on the internet.

I dont have to see it to believe it does happen. Just like I dont have to see a case of IBD before I believe it exists...

You are saying dont believe it until you see it or have proof, but you are expecting people to NOT believe it based on your experience. I would like to think that newbies are smart enough to say "better safe then sorry".

I understand the chances are low, but when there is an alternative that works just as well, without that small risk, you should take it

If you want to see what a live mouse, yes mouse, can do to a ball python, click on the link below.
CLICK WITH CAUTION!

http://www.proexotics.com/graphics/b...ive_prey_1.jpg

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Originally Posted by green_man

You are saying dont believe it until you see it or have proof, but you are expecting people to NOT believe it based on your experience. I would like to think that newbies are smart enough to say "better safe then sorry".

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I am not expecting people to believe me at all. As a matter of fact I am not "expecting" anything at all. I'm not telling people to go out and start feeding live or that live is better or that FT or PK is bad. People should do what works for them. But, just as you have the right to say the "you believe" there is risk in feeding live, I have the right to say that "I believe" that there isn't. My statements about the size of my collection and the numbers of live feedings that I've done are made in support of my "belief". The only other person on this thread that has offered anything close to empirical evidence to support their belief is Jeanne.

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Originally Posted by green_man

I understand the chances are low, but when there is an alternative that works just as well, without that small risk, you should take it

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Just because it works just as well for you, does not make it work just as well for everyone. I think it's unfair to say "it's better to feed FT or PK cause it works just as well" when you don't know the feeding habits of other people snake.

Someone that's been feeding their snake live for the last 12 months because they won't take PK might come on here and feel like they are doing something wrong or that people on the internet think they are putting the snake at risk and are a bad keeper for feeding live when it's just not true.

-adam

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Originally Posted by BallPythonBabe448

If you want to see what a live mouse, yes mouse, can do to a ball python, click on the link below.
CLICK WITH CAUTION!

http://www.proexotics.com/graphics/b...ive_prey_1.jpg

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BallPythonBabe448,

That picture has been around for years. Do you understand that the reason that ball python was chewed up like that was because the rodent was left in with it, without food, for at least a week and probably more?

That is not an argument to not feed live, that's an argument for having the owner of the snake charged with 2 counts of animal cruelty.

That will not happen if you put a live rodent in with a snake for an hour to feed it. If the snake doesn't eat in an hour ... take the rodent out.

Pretty simple.

-adam

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green_man wrote:

I understand the chances are low, but when there is an alternative that works just as well, without that small risk, you should take it

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Just because it works just as well for you, does not make it work just as well for everyone. I think it's unfair to say "it's better to feed FT or PK cause it works just as well" when you don't know the feeding habits of other people snake.

Someone that's been feeding their snake live for the last 12 months because they won't take PK might come on here and feel like they are doing something wrong or that people on the internet think they are putting the snake at risk and are a bad keeper for feeding live when it's just not true.

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I said "WHEN there is an alternative that works just as well."

I have always told people to feed pre killed or frozen thawed unless the snake will not take it. In that case, feed live closely supervised.

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Originally Posted by green_man

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green_man wrote:

I understand the chances are low, but when there is an alternative that works just as well, without that small risk, you should take it

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Quote:

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Just because it works just as well for you, does not make it work just as well for everyone. I think it's unfair to say "it's better to feed FT or PK cause it works just as well" when you don't know the feeding habits of other people snake.

Someone that's been feeding their snake live for the last 12 months because they won't take PK might come on here and feel like they are doing something wrong or that people on the internet think they are putting the snake at risk and are a bad keeper for feeding live when it's just not true.

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I said "WHEN there is an alternative that works just as well."

I have always told people to feed pre killed or frozen thawed unless the snake will not take it. In that case, feed live closely supervised.

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Hey, that's cool ... I tell friends that I sell snakes to to feed live if they have access to it and FT if they don't ... nothing wrong with either way!

This has been a great discussion!

-adam

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The only other person on this thread that has offered anything close to empirical evidence to support their belief is Jeanne.

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I take it you didn't read my post.

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right to say the "you believe" there is risk in feeding live, I have the right to say that "I believe" that there isn't.

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That's fine but then let the evidence supporting each fall where it may. This should be more empirical i think. Clearly snakes have been bitten/mauled/killed etc etc etc by LIVE feeds - what ill effect to health have they suffered due to DEAD prey? As much as I respect your opinion I don't think this is a good topic to relegate to the fates in the name of "faith" and "belief".

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My statements about the size of my collection and the numbers of live feedings that I've done are made in support of my "belief".

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It almost sounds like you are concluding based SOLELY on your personal experience that there is no risk in feeding live, and it is the logic with that approach that i find problematic. Absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence.

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Originally Posted by Marla

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The only other person on this thread that has offered anything close to empirical evidence to support their belief is Jeanne.

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I take it you didn't read my post.

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I probably didn't and just don't remeber ... I'll go back and look.

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

That's fine but then let the evidence supporting each fall where it may. This should be more empirical i think. Clearly snakes have been bitten/mauled/killed etc etc etc by LIVE feeds - what ill effect to health have they suffered due to DEAD prey? As much as I respect your opinion I don't think this is a good topic to relegate to the fates in the name of "faith" and "belief".

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Smulkin, I could spout off about vitamin deficiencies in frozen rodents, refrozen rodents causing stomach rot, other internal damage from not fully thawed animals, esohpageal damage from PK animals claws, and on. These are all things that I have heard and been told over the years just like many people have been told bad things about feeding live. I chose not to, because I don't want to disuade anyone from doing what works for them. Or make anyone question the level of care they are giving their animals. My only point is that feeding live prey is safe. I used the word "belief" to try and not come off like some know it all. I'm really trying to just share my experience here. I'm not some ball python "guru" or expert, just a guy thats been caring and breeding a lot of animals for a lot of years. Between you and I :wink: .... I "KNOW" that feeding live is safe, I substituted know with belief in that post in the interest of harmony :lol:

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

It almost sounds like you are concluding based SOLELY on your personal experience that there is no risk in feeding live, and it is the logic with that approach that i find problematic.

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Well, I talk about my personal experience because I can prove it. You or anyone else is cetainly invited over to watch/help me feed and examine my collection. I don't believe in dropping names or spouting experiences that I've been told or heard about. If it helps large ball python breeders like Ralph Davis (600 - 800 animals a week), Brian@BHB (1,000 animals a week), Kev & Kara@NERD (god knows how many ... 1 bazillion maybe), and many many more all feed live and I am sure the numbers of bites or injuried are minimal (if any) or at least comparible to any other accidental injury in a sample of the same size.

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

Absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence.

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Good point ... and at some point reasonable people can conclude that an infinitesimal statistical anomaly for all intents and purposes is nonexistent.


-adam

it would be interesting to get KLG's input...

Ahhhh .... Marla ... just found your post ... sorry I missed it, as it's a good one!

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Originally Posted by Marla

If you are breeding prey, yes it would just become food for something else, but pet store rodents often become pets if not fed to reptiles. Further, cervical dislocation generally means ~1 sec of pain, whacking generally takes up to a few seconds to kill or desensitize (with a second whack killing), CO2 depending on concentration generally knocks out within 10 seconds at most, and constriction can take up to or even more than a minute, depending on the angle of capture, intensity of the squeeze, etc. I'm not saying that live=evil or anything, but it is a slower and more painful way to die for the rodent.

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Who's to say what "measure" of pain or suffering is tolerable. Certainly not I. There's no evidence of how a rodent "feels". It's like the whole argument about how would you like to die .... choking, heat attack, etc. I mean really ... I always say "I don't wanna die, but I know I have to, so what difference does it make." .... At the pet stores around here, the feeder rodents and the pet rodents are always seperate. When I need a rodent in a pinch and have to go the pet store and they're out of feeders, they won't even sell me the "pet" rats. :twisted:

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Originally Posted by Marla

I have seen both mice and rats fight to free themselves once struck if hit at a bad angle and constricted around the lower body -- biting on the head repeatedly until stopped by the keeper, and I have seen mice run and attack a snake behind the head when it missed on the first strike. I don't suppose I've witnessed quite "thousands" of live feedings, but it didn't take that many to observe these behaviors, even if they are less common than cowering. This is why it is important to supervise, not because a leg might get caught on a tooth or something.

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I'll give ya that, mice are nasty little fu*** .... well you know. But I've still never seen one attack a snake. This is a good point though because I feed the majority of my snakes rats and choose not to leave mice in with snakes overnight. I always reccomend no longer than an hour for newbies. As far as bad angles go, if thats a problem, feeding a little bit of a smaller prey item might be in order. Many people have this obsession with using large and medium rats that I simply cannot understand.

-adam

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Originally Posted by green_man

it would be interesting to get KLG's input...

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LOL ... Sounds good to me! :D

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My only point is that feeding live prey is safe.

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And my only point is making that an unqualified blanket statement and discounting "statistical anomalies" that are well documented and in effect blowing off any potential risks seems rather reckless.

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Originally Posted by Smulkin

And my only point is making that an unqualified blanket statement and discounting "statistical anomalies" that are well documented and in effect blowing off any potential risks seems rather reckless.

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Saying "it's safer to feed frozen thawed" is also an unqualified blanket statement that discounts statistical anomalies that are well documented.

Is that reckless as well?