Spider x Spider results

General consensuses seems to be this pairing happens all the time, yet I never see reports about it. So here is mine, if anyone else has reliable results to give, feel free to share.

I paired my Spider x Spider together, last male she saw before him was 2 years ago, my male lesser.

Lock observed, after a few months she laid 2 slugs and 4 good eggs (she laid 5 good eggs and no slugs previously). I noticed one of the eggs go bad a ways through the process (wish I had a day count), I did cut open the egg and found a way under developed snake that obviously stopped developing long before I noticed a bad egg.

The remaining 3 eggs went full term, 1.1 spiders and 1.0 normal. Here are quick cell phone pics of the spiders, I will try to get better ones once they shed out. They are also possibly part of one of my dinker projects, so if the female looks like she might be, I will be keeping her and be able to report her breeding results.

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/...psml6msq3i.jpg

Thank you for posting this. I'm a believer in the theory that spiderXspider is not a lethal combo. I am currently pairing my lesser bee to my killer bee hoping for positive results

i look forward to hearing your results. I honestly think it is lethal in some sense. However I am basing that opinion mostly off all the hearsay and very few actual records. While I might not be hopeful ill still get to see what this little female produces.

Yea I can't wait till my mojave spider female gets up to size because I've been wanting to breed her to my male normal spider

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by aLittleLessButter

Thank you for posting this. I'm a believer in the theory that spiderXspider is not a lethal combo. I am currently pairing my lesser bee to my killer bee hoping for positive results

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I am looking forward to seeing your results, too. However, to determine whether a pair of spider genes is lethal, we have to make spider to spider matings as you are doing. Then the spider babies must be mated to non-spider ball pythons. If any normal babies occur, the spider parent does not have a pair of spider genes. A couple of dozen of those matings should give decent statistics. I'd also like to see a compilation of the results of spider mated to non-spider. That would tell us whether or not spider babies develop and hatch just as well as non-spiders.

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Originally Posted by paulh

I'd also like to see a compilation of the results of spider mated to non-spider. That would tell us whether or not spider babies develop and hatch just as well as non-spiders.

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What info are you looking for exactly with this?

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Originally Posted by paulh

I am looking forward to seeing your results, too. However, to determine whether a pair of spider genes is lethal, we have to make spider to spider matings as you are doing. Then the spider babies must be mated to non-spider ball pythons. If any normal babies occur, the spider parent does not have a pair of spider genes. A couple of dozen of those matings should give decent statistics. I'd also like to see a compilation of the results of spider mated to non-spider. That would tell us whether or not spider babies develop and hatch just as well as non-spiders.

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That's the idea. I know there are a few big breeders that are playing around with the same plan but so far they have put out no results favoring either side which gives me hope.

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Originally Posted by paulh

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I'd also like to see a compilation of the results of spider mated to non-spider. That would tell us whether or not spider babies develop and hatch just as well as non-spiders.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

What info are you looking for exactly with this?

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Number of normal babies and number of spider babies from each clutch. Number of eggs and number of slugs would be nice to have, too.

We know that spiders tend to wobble. Does the spider gene also make a spider embryo less fit to survive to hatching, compared to a normal?

Probability theory says to expect 100 normals and 100 spiders out of 200 eggs from spider x normal matings. What if there are 80 spiders and 120 normals? Or 120 spiders and 80 normals? Or some other difference from expected? A Chi-square statistical test will tell whether the difference seems to mean something.

If the number of spider hatchlings is significantly less than the number of normals, it would support the belief that a ball python with a pair of spider genes is likely to die before hatching.

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Originally Posted by paulh

Number of normal babies and number of spider babies from each clutch. Number of eggs and number of slugs would be nice to have, too.

We know that spiders tend to wobble. Does the spider gene also make a spider embryo less fit to survive to hatching, compared to a normal?

Probability theory says to expect 100 normals and 100 spiders out of 200 eggs from spider x normal matings. What if there are 80 spiders and 120 normals? Or 120 spiders and 80 normals? Or some other difference from expected? A Chi-square statistical test will tell whether the difference seems to mean something.

If the number of spider hatchlings is significantly less than the number of normals, it would support the belief that a ball python with a pair of spider genes is likely to die before hatching.

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I get what you are getting at now. Well I think the fact that we have many less severe wobble morphs, when combined with spider turn into lethal or train-wreak might add to that. I mean as far as heterozygous forms go, spider seems to be the worst wobbler. based on that alone it would be reasonable to assume it would see the worst lethality of them all, then maybe, just maybe, it is so bad that it doesn't even develop fully most of the time....

Thank you OWAL for sharing these results! I think it's very helpful information for everyone who breeds balls. I think it's in everyone's best interest to be transparent with genetics, especially regarding health issues. Anyway, I'm rambling, but thank you again!

This will most likely be my last time breeding spider x spider on purpose, given the new info with the blackhead gene. Figure i might as well share anyways. Pairing was a spinner hypo to a spider. I'm assuming the egg went bad around 30-35. Cut it today on day 40. Under developed white snake.

https://u.cubeupload.com/OUhoPQ.jpg
https://u.cubeupload.com/XehX3F.jpg

Is this the only bag egg? Thanks for updating this

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Originally Posted by RickyNY

Is this the only bag egg? Thanks for updating this

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Only bad egg I've had this season, besides ones with no vains to start. This was a good egg when it started.

Well noticed another start going bad a couple days ago. I can't prove it's a super spider, but I've never had a hatchling die this late in the egg from a non spider x spider and seems to happen everytime with spider x spider.
https://i.imgur.com/kQt6k7o.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/5zAcAYE.jpg

So I thought this saga was over, a spinner pipped while we were at the show today, so we cut the eggs. I found out were all my luck got used up this season. 3 spinners, possibly a 4th (might just be a pin). a super curious spider in the picture and oh yeah, another white snake.... and its still alive. Will definitely keep everyone updated, but ill admit, something already looks off about it, so very little reason to think it will live long even if it makes it out of the egg.

https://i.imgur.com/F1n7Y9q.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/k1U7f0R.jpg

This is fascinating. I'm sorry to hear about the ones that didn't make it.

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Originally Posted by piedlover79

This is fascinating. I'm sorry to hear about the ones that didn't make it.

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Well it's expected, the intent of this pairing was always information gathering. I even feel like I'm bordering on ethics, but when I first paired these animals the general consensus on the super spider had a wide range. Information on the blackhead changed that, which is why this is my last spider x spider breeding. I'm just excited to see one near full term, at least publicly only a handful of people have. I plan on getting a necropsy done once this one passes, as I assume it will. Perhaps they can tell us why they pass.

When it comes to the wobble morphs there's such a range of alignments it makes we wonder why some thrive with neuro issues and no other issues, while others thrive for a while but pass, then some hardly ever hatch. A lot going on with a lot of unknowns.

https://i.imgur.com/i6EVFlA.jpg

little color on the head. ton of yolk, still slowly breathing.

Wow thank you for sharing. Kind of rough but very interesting!

OWAL: This will most likely be my last time breeding spider x spider on purpose, given the new info with the blackhead gene. Figure i might as well share anyways. Pairing was a spinner hypo to a spider. I'm assuming the egg went bad around 30-35. Cut it today on day 40. Under developed white snake.

Wow! Very interesting bc I recently did a pairing of a Candino / Albino pairing that produced 5 good eggs. The eggs incubated well @ 87.5 F -88.5 F with a constant 99% humidity . Unfortunately at about day 40 I noticed some discoloration on one of the eggs. This particular egg was on the bottom of the clutch with three other eggs attached to it so it was difficult to access the discolored egg. The progression of the discoloration became much more evident and apparent that the egg was bad. The other eggs were totally fine and hatched with healthy babies. Two visual Candinos and two visual Albinos. They pipped at day 57 and the bad egg at that point was very discolored and smelly. Curiosity made me cut the egg after all the hatchlings were out and it was a underdeveloped white snake with a large hardened yolk at the bottom of the egg. Looking very much like this white snake. I didn't take photos of it bc I wasn't going to post it but I did talk about it in my thread about the clutch results. I was thinking that bc of the allelic mutation of the two genes that may have had something to do with it? That maybe the pairing of a Candino/ Albino was just not the best choice? The four survivors are so far doing well and seem ok.

So as expected, they passed. I took some pictures so we can have more than 1 picture in the hobby of a more than likely super spider. I even ran a black light over them, nothing interesting to report. Only color is on the head and a little yellow on the side of the neck. I notice all 3 of the white snakes have kinking issues on the 2nd half of their body. Got this one in the fridge now and will take them up to the vet later today.
https://i.imgur.com/zrmlmny.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/34cb7ft.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/UHXcTcv.jpg

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Originally Posted by Albert Clark

Wow! Very interesting bc I recently did a pairing of a Candino / Albino pairing that produced 5 good eggs. The eggs incubated well @ 87.5 F -88.5 F with a constant 99% humidity . Unfortunately at about day 40 I noticed some discoloration on one of the eggs. This particular egg was on the bottom of the clutch with three other eggs attached to it so it was difficult to access the discolored egg. The progression of the discoloration became much more evident and apparent that the egg was bad. The other eggs were totally fine and hatched with healthy babies. Two visual Candinos and two visual Albinos. They pipped at day 57 and the bad egg at that point was very discolored and smelly. Curiosity made me cut the egg after all the hatchlings were out and it was a underdeveloped white snake with a large hardened yolk at the bottom of the egg. Looking very much like this white snake. I didn't take photos of it bc I wasn't going to post it but I did talk about it in my thread about the clutch results. I was thinking that bc of the allelic mutation of the two genes that may have had something to do with it? That maybe the pairing of a Candino/ Albino was just not the best choice? The four survivors are so far doing well and seem ok.

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I don't think I would draw any correlations from it. Genetically there is zero different between a Candino made from a Albino and Candino vs a het candy and a het albino. I think all of us eventually run into under developed white snakes, I'm sure there is a list of reason it can happen, most being out of our control. Out of all my spider x spider trails, I have always produced at least 1. So far this season, my only bad eggs have been this clutch and my cinny het lavs. Which those cinnys have been a problem pairing for me also, will probably be my last time pairing them also. But last year I even had a bad egg with an under developed white snake from a lemonblast het hypo x het hypo. common genes with no reported issues. it happens.

and apparently spider is dominant now...... 4:05 in.

https://youtu.be/zY5TYxNqovI?t=4m5s

Watched the video. IMO, just talking is a poor way to present genetics material. Adding pictures would be helpful. Markus Jayne has similar material in text on his web page. Adding pictures there would also be helpful but less helpful than when just using voice. See http://ballpython.ca/genetics-101/

For codominance vs. incomplete dominance, there is a technical difference in genetics texts, but the two are easy to confuse in practice. Actually, as we herpers use the term "codominance", it means something like "could be technically incomplete dominance or technically codominance, but I don't know which."

Kevin did not give any evidence to support the claim that spider is a dominant gene. So I will continue classifying it as not recessive, possibly (probably?) lethal when there are two spider genes in the gene pair.

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Originally Posted by paulh

Watched the video. IMO, just talking is a poor way to present genetics material. Adding pictures would be helpful. Markus Jayne has similar material in text on his web page. Adding pictures there would also be helpful but less helpful than when just using voice. See http://ballpython.ca/genetics-101/

For codominance vs. incomplete dominance, there is a technical difference in genetics texts, but the two are easy to confuse in practice. Actually, as we herpers use the term "codominance", it means something like "could be technically incomplete dominance or technically codominance, but I don't know which."

Kevin did not give any evidence to support the claim that spider is a dominant gene. So I will continue classifying it as not recessive, possibly (probably?) lethal when there are two spider genes in the gene pair.

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I did ask him on Youtube and Facebook what he did to prove out a super spider, as he told everyone for years it didn't exist. Always welcome new info, but I still see the evidence as overwhelming on the lethal side. I mean explain the above animal, it's not the typical under developed white snake we see, it has color, just like toms.

I did bring the animal to the vet earlier, will report the results when I get em.

Actually a thought, if someone is that confident you can make a super spider, they could breed a bh spider to a bh spider, only 3 different phenotypes possible. No proving out necessary.

I guess no one told Kevin about the super pinstripes that BHB has been producing. It makes me wonder if someone will be able to get a super spider someday too.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

and apparently spider is dominant now...... 4:05 in.

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So despite all of the documented evidence to the contrary, NERD still insists Spider is simple dominant?? SMH... The final part of that video title says volumes -- "a bunch of nonsense"

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Actually a thought, if someone is that confident you can make a super spider, they could breed a bh spider to a bh spider, only 3 different phenotypes possible. No proving out necessary.

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This would be great, unfortunately there are very few people out there interested in breeding for anything other than making more combos

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Originally Posted by asplundii

This would be great, unfortunately there are very few people out there interested in breeding for anything other than making more combos

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If someone wants to donate 1.1 bh spiders, I have no problem raising them and breeding them. Just a little too high of price range for an experiment that I'm already pretty confident of the results.

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Originally Posted by asplundii

So despite all of the documented evidence to the contrary, NERD still insists Spider is simple dominant?? SMH... The final part of that video title says volumes -- "a bunch of nonsense"

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Yup and then my favorite is the people who claim they have done tons of breedings, yet offer nothing beyond that. Funny how we've been looking into this issue for years now, yet everyone on fb has all the answers already. This one I like because of the supposed number of breedings. Condescending statements and nothing to show for it.

https://i.imgur.com/IwcpGU7.png

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Yup and then my favorite is the people who claim they have done tons of breedings, yet offer nothing beyond that. Funny how we've been looking into this issue for years now, yet everyone on fb has all the answers already. This one I like because of the supposed number of breedings. Condescending statements and nothing to show for it.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/IwcpGU7.png

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(i've been lurking this thread since the beginning, pardon my sudden appearance)
but oh my goodness, these people! where's your proof? where's the photos and documentation? where's the darn snakes!?!? you'd think a clutch of a Spider x Spider pairing would be well documented by a breeder, let alone a thriving Super Spider! it's honestly amazing that this debate is still going on.
truly, SMH :disbelief

So I got a call about the necropsy, Spine was deformed (as we can see), but all the organs looked fine, even the lungs (perhaps making us need to rethink the under developed lungs theory). I opted out of paying for further testing.

I also got a response from nerd on their Facebook, about the video above and they said super spider is lethal. So I know it wasn't Kevin who personally messaged me, so there even seems to be some disagreement within nerd.

About all i have left to report.