Whole clutch died.

Was this just not meant to be? Or could this have been avoided somehow?

First clutch of the year. Laid weeks before all the others. Eggs all looked great. 49 days in, 5 eggs started turning green. The two good ones pipped sometime last night or this morning.

As soon as I found them, I knew something was wrong. They were not scared when I opened the lid. One was already dead. The other still alive but very weak and flopped over. I touched the head and it gave a yawn and died shortly after. They look like normal snakes no deformity or anything.

I need to know if this clutch was just genetically screwed from the begining or something wrong with my incubator. I'm no expert but this is my third year breeding and it's not exactly my first time around the block.

Up until last year I had a small styrofoam incubator but this year I had many clutches and made a fridge type incubator. I can not find anything wrong with it and found temperatures to be completely even, left to right, top to bottom, front to back. Two thermostat probes one near upper part one near lower part, temps did not vary more than 1 degree, ever.

Why would they pip and immediately die like that?

If something is wrong I need to know it. I have 53 more eggs in there.

Sorry for your loss of the clutch. If temperatures are accurate and steady, and humidity is maintained, then it just wasn't meant to be for those particular eggs. I wouldn't be overly concerned for the remaining eggs in the bator.

Let's say it WAS a problem with temps or whatnot. Why would they go full term, pip, THEN die? I'd think those eggs would have gone bad like the other 5 in the clutch?

I know they breath air once out of the egg, but I know you only open the box once a day after pipping it should be enough air? Some people leave them in the bator till they first shed I hear, in those air tight egg boxes, and they get enough air from opening once a day, right?

Maybe whatever killed the first 5 eggs only managed to severely weaken the 2 remaining.

Hey, what egg boxes should be used? Before I was using egg boxes which were not lockable and probably not airtight. This year the boxes are plastic lunch boxes with press on lid. Probably not air tight either, but more so than before. I can't imagine it be a problem if people use that press and seal stuff?

I hope its only this clutch but if something's up I need to know.

This is NOT the box I'm using but its a picture online of a box with the same kind of press on lids.

http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/...lgXcJ7YJfl8%3D

I can't see it being a problem? Could there be too much water in the egg??? I don't get it. I know you need to lid the boxes to keep humidity in, but then, people use press n seal to make it airtight but then poke holes in it.

I have a few air hole in my egg boxes. I just use regular sterlite "shoebox" size tubs. No air tight lids and it has been working great for me.

Yes, but is this whar caused the deaths? Is it wrong to use airtight lids? Because I have always been told to?

I open the tubs once a week for air exchange, and everyday last two weeks.

Should I drill holes in all the tubs?

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Originally Posted by hungba

I don't get it. I know you need to lid the boxes to keep humidity in, but then, people use press n seal to make it airtight but then poke holes in it.

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People go to great lengths to make this stuff more complicated than it is...

Anybody can offer any help or advice?

Only advice I can offer is to triple check everything in your bator is working fine. Even if it wasn't though, I think it would be hard for the egg to last as long as they did and then go bad. So I'd look for another reason... What was the pairing? Has the mother laid before? Is the father a first timer? Idk this just sounds weird. I have all my eggs in the shoebox from the Container store and I don't poke holes. I also don't open the lid every day to give them air. I have found they get enough as long as there's airflow in the bator.

My tubs are airtight. I open generally once a day

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Originally Posted by TheSnakeEye

Only advice I can offer is to triple check everything in your bator is working fine. Even if it wasn't though, I think it would be hard for the egg to last as long as they did and then go bad. So I'd look for another reason... What was the pairing? Has the mother laid before? Is the father a first timer? Idk this just sounds weird. I have all my eggs in the shoebox from the Container store and I don't poke holes. I also don't open the lid every day to give them air. I have found they get enough as long as there's airflow in the bator.

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The female has laid before. Male has bred plenty of times. Though not with each other.

Don't know what else to check in the bator. Temps are same everywhere. Egg boxes closed. Vermiculite damp. Egg crate on vermiculite separating eggs.

Only ever lost one egg before and that was in the crappy styrofoam 2 clutch bator I used the first two years.

If its the bator I don't think they'd die AFTER pipping?

Also, every other clutch in there is fine.

I don't know that anyone will be able to tell you for sure what happened because there are so many factors involved. My own green egg did not seem to impact the others from what I can tell, but they haven't hatched yet so I don't know if they'll be viable.

I did recently read a post on another forum where they (I think it was Rich Macias) suggested that temperatures may rise within egg boxes as the eggs start generating their own heat, and that it could be the reason why people lose snakes so close to hatching.

Aside from that, and this is just me spitballing here for you to consider/research on your own, they could have been exposed to a mold, bacteria, or chemical that overwhelmed them when they hatched - maybe the effort of hatching made them especially vulnerable to it. Or maybe something went wrong while they were developing internally and it only became an issue once they hatched - like underdeveloped lungs or something.

So sorry to hear about your clutch going bad! I hope the others are unaffected. Hopefully someone else with more experience can offer some insight.

So sorry to hear about the loss hungba. It sounds like you did everything right. Some of these breeding and incubation processes are truly in the hands of the odds gods. Keep up your good work and chalk it up. :gj:

Are their bottom jaws fully formed? Our entire clutch hatched with an overbite. We didn't notice it at first, until we saw them flipped around. I know some babies with this deformity die shortly after hatching and it usually affects the whole clutch. It doesn't seem like an incubator issue if those two went full term..

It's hard to say really. If they went full term but died after pipping I would think the 'green stuff' that killed the first eggs was still present in the tub and caused them to get sick and die after they opened their shell to expose themselves to it. That's my best guess... sorry for your loss.

What is your incubator temp? You said it's constant but what is it? Also, are you using just one or two thermometers to check it, maybe one is off? Too low of a temp can cause dead but outwardly perfect full-term babies.

Otherwise it may have just been that particular pairing that was the problem. I run my eggs the same as you, sealed plastic container w/ the Glad Press n Seal to maintain humidity at 99% or higher, and open the lids to permit air exchange briefly once a day for the last few weeks.

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

Are their bottom jaws fully formed? Our entire clutch hatched with an overbite. We didn't notice it at first, until we saw them flipped around. I know some babies with this deformity die shortly after hatching and it usually affects the whole clutch. It doesn't seem like an incubator issue if those two went full term..

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They had no physical abnormality.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

What is your incubator temp? You said it's constant but what is it? Also, are you using just one or two thermometers to check it, maybe one is off? Too low of a temp can cause dead but outwardly perfect full-term babies.

Otherwise it may have just been that particular pairing that was the problem. I run my eggs the same as you, sealed plastic container w/ the Glad Press n Seal to maintain humidity at 99% or higher, and open the lids to permit air exchange briefly once a day for the last few weeks.

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The temp in the incubator is 89 constant. Inside egg tubs for whatever reason is 87 - 88. Yes thermometers are often off. But I have 5 in there, not counting the two thermostat probes which aldo display the temps.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Too low of a temp can cause dead but outwardly perfect full-term babies.

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Can you please elaborate on this? How can they have died but be full term? They pipped themselves, I didn't cut the eggs or anything.

If you eliminated incubation issues, and you eliminated pairing issue (same pair producing viable offspring in the past), than it's just one of those things that happens.

I had hatchlings crawl out of the egg and die, some take 2 or 3 meals and die, 1 die while constricting, it's just one of those things.

You can always have a necropsy and it could reveal some issue like aneurysm or other defect but it would not change anything and would not be something you could prevent (unless this pairing consistently produce weaker animals)

They are not all meant to be whether it's eggs or hatchlings.

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Originally Posted by hungba

Can you please elaborate on this? How can they have died but be full term? They pipped themselves, I didn't cut the eggs or anything.

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Read it elsewhere. Since you incubated at 89*F and they pipped it's a non-issue anyway.

Sometimes clutches or pairings are just weak. Luck of the draw and it happens. Hopefully your other clutches will be better.

We had some problems with green eggs as well, ended up killing 5 eggs in our clutch. Luckily we still got 2 out. It's been hypothesized that the green is caused by an increase in B2 levels, which results in a hardened yolk that the snake is unable to fully absorb.

Not sure if this is what happened in your case, but this seemed to be true with our clutch.

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What causes increased b2 levels?

No idea