Diamond x Jungle using tail as lure?

Anyone else witness this before? I am not new to Reptiles, but new to Morelia and witnessed my Diamond Jungle wagging her tail while perched on a branch. It was as if to attract something, very cat (or leopard gecko) like consistent wag for a couple minutes. Ate two rat pinkies after.

Back story, I just got her today as a young female and placed her with a young Male Coastal Jag. He was still hiding away, and she took up a position on the branch (actually a dowel). Would have got a video but my phone sucks and had low lighting for the introduction.

Why are u introducing them? Do u plan on housing them together?

Sent from my LGL15G using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by carpet

Back story, I just got her today as a young female and placed her with a young Male Coastal Jag. He was still hiding away, and she took up a position on the branch (actually a dowel). Would have got a video but my phone sucks and had low lighting for the introduction.

---

You just bought the snake, and you have already placed it with another?

No quarantine process?

To this point everything seems wrong here. A young male coastal "hiding away" which leads me to believe that snake is rather new as well and possibly nervous and unsettled. You have two young snakes together in the same cage and have undergone absolutely no quarantine process for the new animal which is very risky for a number of reasons.

Unless your snakes are breeding, and they certainly shouldn't be, they are solitary animals. When young, these snakes will eat other reptiles and it's not out of the question to have one snake eat another.

Maybe I've misunderstood something here, however from what I've read you are not doing things the right way.

You need to separate those animals ASAP.

Sorry I did not know this was going into a housing discussion, so I will explain.

The male came from the same petstore last week, (housed in groups of pairs or all females) and I suspect same breeder based on time they all came in. So I decided to quarantine them together in a 2'x2'x1' tank together with ample hiding, heat/cool and perch area, at least while young. I have administered many medications in the past over the last 30 years, so feel comfortable in this aspect of the husbandry. I would be more careful if I start buying more carpets, from private breeders who's snakes have not found themselves in the pet store chain.

From reading threads (comments of those who have large collections) and discussing with a couple breeders, no one has ever witnessed an issue with pairs or all females if kept close to the same size. The only issue I have heard being of concern is at feeding time, and I plan to spend more time understanding if that is going to be the deal breaker in housing them together. Also I will investigate if she could breed too early under these conditions. That seems to be another valid concern.

To the point of: To this point everything seems wrong here. A young male coastal "hiding away" which leads me to believe that snake is rather new as well and possibly nervous and unsettled.

It was in the evening that I introduced the female and the male had not come out of his hide yet. Not sure what is weird about that. He hides in the day and comes out on his perch at night. I think if you provide an appropriate hide for a Carpet Python, you will see they use it too. For example, not a big open hide box for zero since of security. I have a hide that he can squeeze into and feel protection on top/bottom. Actually, they are both using this hide now (it is more of a crevice than a hide) and I suspect they will both be on the perch tonight. I have a similar hide on the warm side, but since it is warm right now in Southern California, they prefer the cool hide.

Bad move man you should really seperat those snakes asap. They are competing For the hot spot in the hide not snuggling. And yes early breeding could be a very real possibility. Yes you might not have any problems. But I can guarantee you u are putting extra stress on them that is not needed. I'm not tryin to be a D but I don't no a single breeder that houses carpets together unless breeding or they are just hatching. Just my 2 cents

Sent from my LGL15G using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frostysBP

Bad move man you should really seperat those snakes asap. They are competing For the hot spot in the hide not snuggling. And yes early breeding could be a very real possibility. Yes you might not have any problems. But I can guarantee you u are putting extra stress on them that is not needed. I'm not tryin to be a D but I don't no a single breeder that houses carpets together unless breeding or they are just hatching. Just my 2 cents

Sent from my LGL15G using Tapatalk

---

It is actually an elongated crevice, one on each side (hot/cold) so they are not even in contact.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frostysBP

I'm not tryin to be a D but I don't no a single breeder that houses carpets together

---

That's weird because I found a few that keep them together and they happen to be breeders who infrequent forums, they just breed and don't chat much about it online. After asking one about this, they reminded me of the lack of understanding on forums, reminding me how I complained about what was being posted on the other reptiles I had success in breeding. I have bred over 100 species of reptiles with great success on even some of the most complicated. This success was willingness to try different things (with common sense and previous investigations) and observe their behaviour. I think I listened to the experts fairly well before this introduction, but I do understand the common knee jerk reaction found if you post on a forum.

With that said, they recommended keeping them like this for a while and once they get closer to a year, to move one out to another 2x2x1 (I have many of these). They recommended keeping them in 2 deep x 4 long x 2 high when adults together if planning on breeding or to keep separate for feeding in the cage, then hook training to handle. The feeding while living in the same quarters was the only difficulty in their experience.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by carpet

Sorry I did not know this was going into a housing discussion, so I will explain.

The male came from the same petstore last week, (housed in groups of pairs or all females) and I suspect same breeder based on time they all came in. So I decided to quarantine them together in a 2'x2'x1' tank together with ample hiding, heat/cool and perch area, at least while young. I have administered many medications in the past over the last 30 years, so feel comfortable in this aspect of the husbandry. I would be more careful if I start buying more carpets, from private breeders who's snakes have not found themselves in the pet store chain.

From reading threads (comments of those who have large collections) and discussing with a couple breeders, no one has ever witnessed an issue with pairs or all females if kept close to the same size. The only issue I have heard being of concern is at feeding time, and I plan to spend more time understanding if that is going to be the deal breaker in housing them together. Also I will investigate if she could breed too early under these conditions. That seems to be another valid concern.

To the point of: To this point everything seems wrong here. A young male coastal "hiding away" which leads me to believe that snake is rather new as well and possibly nervous and unsettled.

It was in the evening that I introduced the female and the male had not come out of his hide yet. Not sure what is weird about that. He hides in the day and comes out on his perch at night. I think if you provide an appropriate hide for a Carpet Python, you will see they use it too. For example, not a big open hide box for zero since of security. I have a hide that he can squeeze into and feel protection on top/bottom. Actually, they are both using this hide now (it is more of a crevice than a hide) and I suspect they will both be on the perch tonight. I have a similar hide on the warm side, but since it is warm right now in Southern California, they prefer the cool hide.

---

This turned into a discussion about housing because of the initial post. It does not matter where you bought the snakes and what they did prior to you accommodating them. You have a COASTAL and a DIAMOND/JUNGLE cross. They are not the same and it is ALWAYS recommended to start snakes off separately when first acquired. The "few" breeders you know that house them together may have done so without incident. That's great, however you are establishing 2 new animals and you will not find ANY care sheet whether it be internet or written text that says snakes should be housed together.

If you are questioning internet opinion/advice then why are you here asking about tail luring in carpet pythons? I agree that it is a neat topic and it's fairly common in many species of snakes. Observing the event happening in front of you is definitely interesting, and worthy of discussion.

Not a soul here wants to start off tearing a new member apart, but if you think you are going to bypass quarantine procedures and basic housing practices, people here will question you, and that isn't to be offensive, but rather to try to figure out what you are doing. You will find folks here genuinely have the animal's best interest in mind.

I personally am not overly impressed with "breeders" of any species of snake unless they are well versed in the biology of the animals they keep.

I will respect folks that have extremely long lived animals and are not motivated by profit or having a special morph that hasn't been produced yet. Large collections mean little if the basic needs of an animal are being overlooked. Too many breeders pump out crap for profit and care little for the animals or actually have done any biological research on the animals they keep.

Introducing 2 two juvenile animals is not a good idea period.

As Frosty stated the two pythons you have will compete for the best spots in the enclosure. Biologically these animals are solitary and that's how they should be raised. Years and years of captive keeping and breeding proves this and you will find this as the best practice with just about every species of snake in existence.

There are a lot of snakes I'd like to own, but because I will not compromise the environment I keep them in, I have to settle for what I am able to keep properly and responsibly.


Best of luck to you and your new snakes.

a tail wagging python is a sign of defensive agitation.

Gio,

It is not myself defensive, it seems more or less the "experts" of the forum want to force down a hard care sheet of sorts without question, over simply observing behavior and learning animals as individuals. I just explained what I have found and previous experiences on forums and discussions with those who have been doing this for many years. I also know many articles and publication writers go for the safest approach, because they are telling the community, not wanting naysayers to discredit their publication that they rely on for income or credibility in the community just as the breeders do. I also find many breeders know more than most and refuse to offer publicly the advice, so they don't have everyone breeding and competing for their business. So you might find some offer bad advice if you don't know them.

Is this community so one sided, that I can not say that I have other sources who are indifferent to the comments? I have yet to see any proof as to your claims as well, but have had people who I know study their breeders intensely, for behavioral traits and think otherwise. I agree, there are some bad breeders, but if you are breeding them year after year, there is something to the madness.

As for proper care, I have the ability to offer two 10 foot long cages, but I honestly think my housing is appropriate if not overkill considering these are hatchlings in 2 foot x 2 foot cage. Another thing is I was never set on keeping them together if I found any issues (contamination aside as I discussed this, they are already contaminated*), but the accusatory responses here made me feel the need to debate the comments, as I feel they where not exactly accurate or with any validity as to why, just this desire to have a hard care sheet, for every snake.

* as far as contamination, I know the location these come from has phorid flies (like most wholesalers and large retailers) that come in with the crickets. I did extensive study in previous collections / facilities and if you have these flies, and just screen, all of your tanks are infected if one is infected no matter how well cages are disinfected. I consider these two snakes equal in quarantine requirements.

With that said, I will continue to investigate things like nutrition of the rats that are fed, temps, humidity and other things that are truly important to the longevity of my pythons.. and laugh off this ridiculous thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DennisM

a tail wagging python is a sign of defensive agitation.

---

I had someone ask me if she was coiled and hinted it might be that. I was just staring closely at her and getting ready to offer food. Based on that conversation and looking back, it seems she might have been agitated by me hovering over her (as I tried to look at her details). He said she probably got my breathing.

Hey to each their own. Obviously we are dumb ass over here and Lord carpet and the 100s of different species have breed is stuck in his ways. Let me ask u this so say u go and look in ur cages tomorrow and u have a bloody stool all over the cage now u have no clue what snake did it........so now you are taking two snakes to the vet to find out what snake is sick double the money.....that just one example . this is my last post to you because I'm not gunna argue with a brick wall. To each there own...... Make sure u let me know when the breeders housing carpets together comments on here. Thanks Jeremy.

Sent from my LGL15G using Tapatalk

Gio,

Also, I just want to add, my responses are somewhat long, as I did place quite a bit of thought into my decisions to keep the snakes together. When people have a blanket statement that has a lot of insinuation, I am forced to detail everything out, sorry if that comes across as defensive, as it is not. I just want to make the right decision forward, so question those who question my care.

For your use of "biological" and noting on "you will not find ANY care sheet" are typically polar opposites. Most biological studies and findings show very different requirements than the average care sheet. With both of my pythons being crosses, most likely in captive crossing over 30 years, I would think the breeders and their environments have become the new biological nitch to study, as not one of my Pythons can be found in the wild. And typically these 3 species collectively are kept under similar conditions over the last 30 years, with the exception of pure Diamonds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frostysBP

Hey to each their own. Obviously we are dumb ass over here and Lord carpet and the 100s of different species have breed is stuck in his ways. Let me ask u this so say u go and look in ur cages tomorrow and u have a bloody stool all over the cage now u have no clue what snake did it........so now you are taking two snakes to the vet to find out what snake is sick double the money.....that just one example . this is my last post to you because I'm not gunna argue with a brick wall. To each there own...... Make sure u let me know when the breeders housing carpets together comments on here. Thanks Jeremy.

Sent from my LGL15G using Tapatalk

---

Bloody stool? Not sure what that would be. I will be taking fecal samples regardless to a friend and if anything to be concerned about I have access to meds and know how to treat (unless something terminal). But if I had to pay full price at a vet and did not have enough money, yes I would be concerned.

I am not the brick wall here LGL15G, I am the one sharing everything, putting myself on the line as you and Gia offer blanket statements that "no one does that" and "breeders don't know what they are doing". If you plan to tell people they are wrong, try to back it up with facts, or stop trying to be the forum experts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by carpet

Gio,

It is not myself defensive, it seems more or less the "experts" of the forum want to force down a hard care sheet of sorts without question, over simply observing behavior and learning animals as individuals. I just explained what I have found and previous experiences on forums and discussions with those who have been doing this for many years. I also know many articles and publication writers go for the safest approach, because they are telling the community, not wanting naysayers to discredit their publication that they rely on for income or credibility in the community just as the breeders do. I also find many breeders know more than most and refuse to offer publicly the advice, so they don't have everyone breeding and competing for their business. So you might find some offer bad advice if you don't know them.

Is this community so one sided, that I can not say that I have other sources who are indifferent to the comments? I have yet to see any proof as to your claims as well, but have had people who I know study their breeders intensely, for behavioral traits and think otherwise. I agree, there are some bad breeders, but if you are breeding them year after year, there is something to the madness.

As for proper care, I have the ability to offer two 10 foot long cages, but I honestly think my housing is appropriate if not overkill considering these are hatchlings in 2 foot x 2 foot cage. Another thing is I was never set on keeping them together if I found any issues (contamination aside as I discussed this, they are already contaminated*), but the accusatory responses here made me feel the need to debate the comments, as I feel they where not exactly accurate or with any validity as to why, just this desire to have a hard care sheet, for every snake.

* as far as contamination, I know the location these come from has phorid flies (like most wholesalers and large retailers) that come in with the crickets. I did extensive study in previous collections / facilities and if you have these flies, and just screen, all of your tanks are infected if one is infected no matter how well cages are disinfected. I consider these two snakes equal in quarantine requirements.

With that said, I will continue to investigate things like nutrition of the rats that are fed, temps, humidity and other things that are truly important to the longevity of my pythons.. and laugh off this ridiculous thread.

---

Best of luck.

I hope your experience is problem free.

The proof you seem to think doesn't exist is actually in the science/biology of these animals. Snakes are secret and solitary and the proven, best practices are to house them separately until they are paired for breeding.

As juveniles being established in captivity it is even more important to house them separately for a number of reasons.

Your procedures possibly being read and practiced by a new keeper that comes here looking for help are not helpful.

If you prefer to do things differently, go for it.

Don't bash the people on the board (forum experts) you just joined and posted on for being concerned about the manner in which you are keeping two juvenile pythons when they have the best interest of the snakes in mind. Laugh it of if you want.

Do your thing and good luck to you.

I never stated I was an expert.

Sent from my LGL15G using Tapatalk

When did I state I was an expert. I know that cohabiting can be done. But it only takes one mistake.I know what I have invested in my animals and it's not worth the risk.the health and well being is number 1 for me. One snake gets sick while cohabiting best bet the other is now sick to. Yes u may have the meds you need and have the experience you need by why risk it. Its all good until you come home to a two dead snakes from one trying to eat the other.

Sent from my LGL15G using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gio

Best of luck.
The proof you seem to think doesn't exist is actually in the science/biology of these animals. Snakes are secret and solitary and the proven, best practices are to house them separately until they are paired for breeding.

---

Actually many species of snakes do den together, some pair up every year and that is proven. Also many snakes eat other snakes, but this is not the case of Carpets. The biology exists in breeder care over the last 30 years, the people you bash are the reason many generations exist outside of Australia today.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gio

As juveniles being established in captivity it is even more important to house them separately for a number of reasons.

---

I hear the opposite for juveniles, and never got a single reason from you why juveniles over adult on this from you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gio

Your procedures possibly being read and practiced by a new keeper that comes here looking for help are not helpful.

---

We want newbies to think of you as authoritative to the subject? I think more so, since this forum is considered the truth on keeping snakes it should be questioned. I am sorry but I don't agree.

Just remember if you are having trouble breeding the snake yourself, chances are they are not happy. You can bash breeders, but their snakes breed and we all know you can't breed reptiles under improper "biological" conditions. I would say you can burn a female out, but we are not talking about that.

Here is an interest post from a breeder in Scotland when someone wanted to house 5 Jungles...

Re: can you house multiple JCP's together?

---

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reptile_Reptile http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/image...s/viewpost.gif remember they have a crazy feeding response and the chance one will munch the other is high.

the chance of a same sized carpet python trying to eat another is very slim if at all mate

out of all the morelia enthusiasts i am in contact with all of them have kept carpets together with no problems

other species i cannot comment on but with carpets,same size females,same size pairs lead to no complications that i have heard of

2 males may show signs of combat as in wrestling and trying to pin each others heads to the ground but i have never witnessed or heard of biting with morelia

i have seen a case where 2 full grown male macklots were put together and that did end up with large bite wounds

that said some species of snakes show no problems co habiting

to the op
i still would not put 5 jungles in one

cheers shaun
__________________
ALWAYS judge a person by the way they treat someone who can be of NO POSSIBLE USE TO THEM !

Another post by the same person...

Re: can you house multiple JCP's together?

---

its only carpets i keep mate sometimes i house.....

same size females together

hatchling pairs until they reach sub adult hood i then seperate and only put them back together for breeding

i have kept adult pairs together that i had no intention of breeding with each other but even when they have not been cooled for breeding i still like to seperate during breeding season for peace of mind

i would NEVER house 2 males in the same tank

the above is just my way of doing things and has caused me no problems with my carpets

i personally would not put 4 or 5 jungles in the same enclosure

also when breeding use the females tank so the male can be removed and the female feels secure in her own tank.

imo its always best to introduce the male to the females tank as he only has one thing on his mind at breeding season if you do it the other way round the female tends to show more interest in exploring the new tank rather than the job in hand

the one thing i find a pain when keeping carpets together is the hassle of getting them out at feeding time

i only keep feeding shedding and health treatments records i'm not one for getting all hung up on when my snake poo's.i give them regular health checks so would notice signs of constipation which i'm happy to say has never been an issue with my collection

cheers shaun

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by carpet

Actually many species of snakes do den together, some pair up every year and that is proven. Also many snakes eat other snakes, but this is not the case of Carpets. The biology exists in breeder care over the last 30 years, the people you bash are the reason many generations exist outside of Australia today.


I hear the opposite for juveniles, and never got a single reason from you why juveniles over adult on this from you.


We want newbies to think of you as authoritative to the subject? I think more so, since this forum is considered the truth on keeping snakes it should be questioned. I am sorry but I don't agree.

Just remember if you are having trouble breeding the snake yourself, chances are they are not happy. You can bash breeders, but their snakes breed and we all know you can't breed reptiles under improper "biological" conditions. I would say you can burn a female out, but we are not talking about that.

---

Brooding snakes (insert species) VS. carpet pythons? Very different, and carpets are not noted for brooding or paring up in mass prior to breeding. What does happen in certain species is male combat but I don't have the time to go into all the reasoning behind my statements. Are you set on breeding? It appears that is you goal.

I can't believe you "hear the opposite" for juveniles LOL!

You seem to think juvenile snakes, ones you've just purchased should be housed together?? If you honestly can't figure out the numerous reasons why that shouldn't happen without me listing them, then you should not be keeping snakes.

I don't care who thinks I'm an authority or not. I never claimed I was contrary to what you seem to think. However it's fairly elementary, basic knowledge that the majority of captive snakes should NOT be housed together. Again when young and being established even more so. But you can't seem to figure out the reason why not to do it. OK,,, then go do what you want to do.

The people I bash??? Who is that?? You say breeders. Are these the breeders that recommend keeping snakes in separate enclosures? Or are these the "few" that you know that do it with several in one enclosure?

Do as you wish as I've said before.

Just because you have some experience with your style of keeping carpet pythons, don't assume a new keeper could pull it off.

Funny that you mention breeders then doubt practiced, proven, and accepted methods of care for carpet pythons written by experienced breeders and herpetologists that have studied these animals.

Many of whom actually do have the science and biology of the animals in mind.

I can't think of a single person with any experience that would skip quarantine, and drop a new juvenile snake into the same cage as another unestablished juvenile snake.

But,,, I guess you are one who can. That's admirable!

Good luck in raising your carpet pythons the way you want to.

Gio,

All I heard was "you want me to explain that? lol"

You keep pounding how I keep two snakes together for disease spreading issues, but I already explained, these have been together at the same petstore, likely from the same breeder. If they have disease it is likely both, and it is for me to find out and treat. I have worked at a wholesale facility and worked under import conditions, managing disease is nothing for myself but understandable to someone new, and repeating myself either way they are already together at the petstore.

With that aside I just wanted to know why you thought juveniles should not be housed together. You acted like many reasons, so was just curious. lol does not explain that to me, or help those new to the hobby understand why.

Quote:

---

Funny that you mention breeders then doubt practiced, proven, and accepted methods of care for carpet pythons written by experienced breeders and herpetologists that have studied these animals.

---

It is actually breeders and the US that I found this information and now in my previous post someone in the UK. Now I feel like I am the one talking to the wall. You hear what you want to hear.

Quote:

---

Brooding snakes (insert species) VS. carpet pythons? Very different, and carpets are not noted for brooding or paring up in mass prior to breeding.

---

I am glad you understand there are brooding species, that is much different than "snakes are solitary". Since you understand "biological" influences, then you understand evolution is not black/white but grey. So differentiating two types of snakes makes little since. Can you at least see based on many discussions and observations of Carpets, that they are a bit closer to communal than say a snake that eats other snakes?

I am sorry, but I think you will keep talking in circles because you have not observed Carpets yourself, only basing this on a general understanding of snakes?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by carpet

Anyone else witness this before? I am not new to Reptiles, but new to Morelia and witnessed my Diamond Jungle wagging her tail while perched on a branch. It was as if to attract something, very cat (or leopard gecko) like consistent wag for a couple minutes. Ate two rat pinkies after.

Back story, I just got her today as a young female and placed her with a young Male Coastal Jag. He was still hiding away, and she took up a position on the branch (actually a dowel). Would have got a video but my phone sucks and had low lighting for the introduction.

---

Keep going.

The experience level you show here doesn't seem to be on par with one who should question or disagree with PROVEN methods! You seem to think I made this up on my own. Not the case here, not by a long shot.


Again if you can't figure out the reasons on your own, then you haven't researched enough.

Try reading THE COMPLETE CARPET PYTHON Written by Nick Mutton and Justin Julander.

It is probably the most comprehensive piece of media about carpet pythons available today. BTW the authors recommend a minimum of 2 months of quarantine before introducing animals into the same housing area (not enclosure) as other snakes. You had one snake and then you brought in another at a different time from a situation where multiple snakes were being housed together. That is not quarantine, and it certainly doesn't do anything to help the NEW snakes adjust to their new situation. Do you see anything between the lines here that I might be hinting at other than disease?

It is rather presumptuous of you to think I have not have not worked with carpet pythons. I house my coastal, female in her own enclosure where she has her OWN hides, water bowl, and choice of basking areas. No competition, no stress, no worries. I am able to monitor everything that goes on with her, or any of my other constrictors.

You can deflect/redirect and disagree with everything I have to say if you'd like. Keep in mind you'll be hard pressed to find others here or on any other forum that find your methods to be wise and a good practice. If you were posting the above in the Ball Python forum you'd have a whole host of folks telling you to separate those animals and a lot more.

I'm done here and have said all I'm going to say and won't respond further on this topic.

Congrats on the tail luring observation.

Enjoy your new snakes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gio

You seem to think I made this up on my own. Not the case here, not by a long shot.

---

Likewise, I shared my conversations and those who think otherwise, with proof by real science, actually doing it. I am sure following the book to the T will get good results as well, if not taking parts of it out of context.

This thread from Australian forum has over 20 people verifying keeping of diamond pythons together...
https://aussiepythons.com/forum/show...thons-together
... just so you know we are not making things up, keeping them together as a common practice.

You can keep harping on the quarantine, but even after I shared they where together before I picked up the first one, you still insist the need because you have no other argument here, after all that is what this is, you can't be wrong or have a direct conversation. Sorry that you had to make up that there are so many reasons to sound authoritative, then divert with pointing to a book discussing part of our conversation out of context and still referencing quarantine needs; the only argument you have.

I still think it is a knee jerk reaction, and now you just don't want to be wrong on any of the conversation. I agree, it might make more sense for quarantine to separate (never placing together prior), but I don't feel it is justifiable in this circumstance.

Anyways, good luck to you as well, in being a forum mod.