Is live feeding really that dangerous?

My 900g female BP does not seem to be interested in f/the and actually hasn't eaten since I got her which was a little over a month ago. I think I'm going to try to feed live but I keep hearing horror stories of infections from rat bites, losing an eye etc. Is live really that serious of a problem. P.s my husbandry Is great I got her around the same time I got my male and he is eating f/t like a beast and they're Temps are almost identical. The place I got her from said she sometimes eats f/t and u was hoping that would be all she ate for me, but clearly that's not the case. So again my question is how dangerous is live feeding really? Should I just wait for her to take f/t? Any advice will be much appreciated. Thanks

It's only dangerous if you're not responsible when you do it. Feed an appropriately sized meal, supervise the feeding, don't leave anything bigger than a pup alone with your snake unsupervised, etc...

Yes if not done responsibly, but it is safe if done responsibly as well.

It's about being educated and knowing how to properly feed live.

I feed 250 live preys a months (not counting hatchlings, that's a drop in a bucket compare to some) and have done so for 9 years with my breeders and holdbacks and NEVER had an issue.

The keys to success

Pre-scent the room bring the feeder near the enclosure 30 min prior to feeding.

Give food and water to the feeder if you purchased it from a store.

Do not stress the feeder.

Do not feed an oversized prey

Drop the feeder and remove if uneaten after 15 to 20 min

I feed my snake strictly on live (except my corn snake and boa). Hatchlings I plan on selling are strictly fed F/T simply because people prefer snakes who eat F/T.

Live feeding is not dangerous depending on the owner. I feed live because it is less time consuming, cheaper (I breed my own rats) and most picky eaters will take live without question and you have a less chance of getting bit if the snake misses.

The rule for feeding live is to never... sorry... NEVER, that's better, leave the snake alone with the live prey. If the snake is just not hungry, but you leave to go to work, you will come home to a damaged snake. If the snake does not eat in 20 minutes, make sure to remove the live prey and try again in 5-7 days.

There is always a risk when the snake actually snatches and begins to constrict. The prey may be in a position to bite the snake. I have had this happen, but besides a couple missing scales, the rat did not break the skin. Snakes are built to avoid damage from their surroundings and from their prey. I have not yet had one get a wound, bleed, infection or chewed beyond belief.

If I can safely live feed my Ginger, than anyone can. She's a stone cold killer, lol.

Make sure to have the right size rat, and have food and bedding placed in the cardboard box for the drive home. A calm rat is a safer rat.

It took Ginger a while to figure out how to hunt. I started with mice, which I recommend. Once she perfected hunting mice, we moved up to rats.

DH and I discussed this before we purchased our first snek - as a kid who grew up watching NatGeo, I have always enjoyed watching "things eating things".

(Last night while we were working on the Carpet enclosure, we watched a few toads out on the driveway eating the stupid flying beetles that come into the garage and bother us - we flicked a few back outside and the toads came rushing to the "buffet"... fun to watch and root for our little exterminators!)

I figured on live-feeding being part of the entertainment of owning a snek. DH stressed that we would not be live-feeding, and when I put on my best pout, he explained the potential dangers (which I understand can be mitigated by being a responsible and watchful participant in the feeding), but added - why add the additional complication? Snek doesn't get any more satisfaction out of hunting live prey than "hunting" what we offer it at the end of tongs, and when we start feeding larger things to our growing sneks, it's normal and natural to expect a grown rodent to fight for its life and cause damage in the process.

We are going to avoid live-feeding as a matter of simplicity - easier storage (frozen), easier for potential pet-sitters, and it removes the potential for food-related injuries... one less thing thing worry about. :) I am a chronic worrier, so this is the clincher for me.

I feed my BP live. He will not take f/t. I have tried so many times. He will go as far as laying on top of the f/t to show me he isn't having it. Live is what I use, I can't bring myself to stun or kill his food on my own. I monitor him the whole time he is feeding. Once he starts to ingest his food, then I give him his privacy, but still check on him. Some snakes are picky, mine is one of them. I also feel like allowing him to have live lets him retain some of his natural instincts. I too have read horror stories, but if the live feeding is done with care and diligence, I don't see anything wrong with it. I feed my BP, atm, live adult feeder mice or rat fuzzies if the pet store in town has them. I've not run into any trouble. Granted, my snake is not at the size to take larger meals yet, but, I don't think I will be switching to f/t any time soon.

I'm another person who feeds only live and been doing it without any incidents for a few years now.

As everyone already said, use good judgement in feeder size, treat the feeder with respect and don't stress it out before feeding and make sure you supervise the feedings. You should do fine.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

I only feed live, and I feed about 130 live rats a month. I have never had an injury so far. All my snakes are already hungry and waiting on feeding day. Most rats don't get to touch the tub floor without being snatched up. The snakes that don't take food within 10 min are removed till next week feed.

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If you only have one snake it's probably cheaper and easier to feed f/t, but my BP won't take anything but live. I always keep a pair of tongs on hand when she's eating so I can put them in the feeder's mouth if it starts trying to bite her. Usually don't even have to do that though.

If done properly, most of the time it is safe. That said, no matter how closely you supervise accidents *can* happen. If the snake strikes but doesn't hit the right spot or coil correctly, the rodent *can* reach around and bite them. If your snake is also developing cataracts or any other vision issues, live feeding becomes the *ir*responsible thing to do.

Monitor your snake's health. Have a plan in place in case something goes wrong. Be aware that things *can* go wrong even if you do everything correctly.

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Originally Posted by Spiritserpents

If done properly, most of the time it is safe. That said, no matter how closely you supervise accidents *can* happen. If the snake strikes but doesn't hit the right spot or coil correctly, the rodent *can* reach around and bite them. ........ Be aware that things *can* go wrong even if you do everything correctly.

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I am living this as we speak. I have a 2300 gram female that I will be taking back to UGA Veterinarian Teaching Hospital for the second time tomorrow. About three and half weeks ago while feeding her an appropriate sized live rat, she was bitten in the gum line under her lip where it wasn't visible. About five days later her right lip started swelling considerably so I took her in. After examining her they found the puncture which had become infected and had to anesthetize her and do a small surgery in which they drained the puss and removed two of her teeth along with a small piece of her upper mandible that were taken off in the bite. Despite giving her treatments of Meloxicam and Ceftazidime since then, the swelling has only slightly reduced. I am hoping that we can get this under control without utilizing anything that could compromise the impending clutch as she ovulated last week. If the choice is between the dam or the offspring, I have to save the dam obviously.

There was absolutely nothing I could have done to prevent the incident as it occurred immediately upon the strike and couldn't be seen in the balled up coils. Further, the expenses will likely be between $600 and $1000 minimum, and believe me that is reasonable compared to some Veterinarians. Further consideration can be given to the possibility of lost revenues if the clutch should be rendered nonviable. Not to mention that it will set back future breeding plans I was hoping to achieve if I hit a specific combo possible in the pairing.

You can feed thousands of rats without incident, but you only need one to go wrong on the right animal for it to have serious consequences. I would do everything you possibly can to switch them over. That said, some simply won't switch and there is nothing you can do but to feed them live and hope for the best.

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Originally Posted by highqualityballz

My 900g female BP does not seem to be interested in f/the and actually hasn't eaten since I got her which was a little over a month ago. I think I'm going to try to feed live but I keep hearing horror stories of infections from rat bites, losing an eye etc. Is live really that serious of a problem. P.s my husbandry Is great I got her around the same time I got my male and he is eating f/t like a beast and they're Temps are almost identical. The place I got her from said she sometimes eats f/t and u was hoping that would be all she ate for me, but clearly that's not the case. So again my question is how dangerous is live feeding really? Should I just wait for her to take f/t? Any advice will be much appreciated. Thanks

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I believe you have gotten some good advise on feeding live. I been a doing this as a hobby for 30 years easy. I've feed live with no problems, like I said lots of good advise given. But as my collection grew, I switched to frozen. If your worried about the possibility of an accident or injury. With patience and a little scenting, I believe you'll eventually get her to eat F/T. That's my two cents. Hope it helps.

I feed live, it's natural. Just watch the kill and then leave it alone with it for a while so it feels safe.

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Originally Posted by MalachiJ

I feed live, it's natural. Just watch the kill and then leave it alone with it for a while so it feels safe.

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This I must quibble with.

The way we feed live to our snakes is nothing close to natural as in nature, the snake and mouse/rat do not find themselves confined in an area that is a couple square feet, unable to escape.

It's like saying that, because it's natural, I should release live rabbits and fawns in my living room for my dog to kill and eat for her dinner. I'm also not going to release song birds, rabbit pups and rodents for my cats to hunt and eat because that, too, would be 'natural'.

There are understandable reasons for feeding live. 'Natural' is not one of them.

I don't like feeding f/t rats, they lose a lot of moisture when your thawing and warming them up, which can lead to some constipation issues, as well as their growth seems to do better with non frozen, but I would never put a live rat with my snakes. I kill the rat right before giving it to them and then nudge it around a bit with the snake hook to make it a bit more lively. Also neither seem particularly interested in thawed. The nice thing is, if the don't eat the rat after it's been killed, you can freeze and use it next week if your ok with the occasional f/t or a different snake is more opening to eating f/t . (Personally I recommend vacuumed sealed)

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Originally Posted by LostWingsInTime

I don't like feeding f/t rats, they lose a lot of moisture when your thawing and warming them up, which can lead to some constipation issues, as well as their growth seems to do better with non frozen

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Source?

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Originally Posted by LostWingsInTime

I don't like feeding f/t rats, they lose a lot of moisture when your thawing and warming them up, which can lead to some constipation issues, as well as their growth seems to do better with non frozen,

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I would also like to know where you got this idea from.

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Source?

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http://www.netvet.co.uk/snakes/constipation.htm over food
The growth was more just an opinion I remember getting from a quite a few different people on different forms when I was first researching before I got mine.

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Originally Posted by Spiritserpents

This I must quibble with.

The way we feed live to our snakes is nothing close to natural as in nature, the snake and mouse/rat do not find themselves confined in an area that is a couple square feet, unable to escape.

It's like saying that, because it's natural, I should release live rabbits and fawns in my living room for my dog to kill and eat for her dinner. I'm also not going to release song birds, rabbit pups and rodents for my cats to hunt and eat because that, too, would be 'natural'.

There are understandable reasons for feeding live. 'Natural' is not one of them.

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Dogs and cats are and have been domesticated for quite sometime. Well I might see you first point, I'm not sure about how you backed it up. Peace

Cats are very barely domesticated. As someone who regularly deals with feral cats, I can vouch that 'domesticated' is not entirely accurate for them.

My corn snakes have been in captivity for many-many generations. I've had some be so lazy about their food that feeding live would be a terrible idea. I'm also breeding solely for temperament in one of my lines... effectively working to 'domesticate' them the way those foxes were. So... *shrugs*

On another point:

I have fed my corns nothing but f/t. I have not had a single issue with constipation, ever. As long as they have constant access to clean water, the amount of moisture lost to freezing is minimal and easily countered by a couple seconds of drinking.

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Originally Posted by LostWingsInTime

I don't like feeding f/t rats, they lose a lot of moisture when your thawing and warming them up, which can lead to some constipation issues, as well as their growth seems to do better with non frozen, but I would never put a live rat with my snakes. I kill the rat right before giving it to them and then nudge it around a bit with the snake hook to make it a bit more lively. Also neither seem particularly interested in thawed. The nice thing is, if the don't eat the rat after it's been killed, you can freeze and use it next week if your ok with the occasional f/t or a different snake is more opening to eating f/t . (Personally I recommend vacuumed sealed)

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I feed my f/t dripping wet, I'd be willing to bet that the snakes get a considerably higher amount of hydration this way than what comes from a live rodent.

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Originally Posted by Sonny1318

Dogs and cats are and have been domesticated for quite sometime. Well I might see you first point, I'm not sure about how you backed it up. Peace

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I've got to agree that it's not really 'natural'. I only feed live because mine will starve herself to the point of losing weight refusing f/t. Maybe other people have snakes that are better hunters than mine, but if I weren't monitoring and ready to put a pair of tongs in the prey's mouth, my snake would have had a lot of bite injuries by now. I honestly feel like she would have been a ftt in the wild :cool:

I agree with you about dogs, but cats are pretty genetically similar to their non-domesticated counterparts (wild cats living on the fringes of human society in areas of Egypt). There was a NatGeo documentary about it that you can probably find on youtube or something... I feel like their prey drive is still hardwired in enough that you could probably argue it would be more 'natural' for them to hunt. Not wanting to start an argument or anything, I just thought it was interesting lol.

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Originally Posted by LostWingsInTime

http://www.netvet.co.uk/snakes/constipation.htm over food
The growth was more just an opinion I remember getting from a quite a few different people on different forms when I was first researching before I got mine.

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That's essentially a blog without citing any research or even listing an author of the article. Any other supporting evidence?

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Originally Posted by Spiritserpents

Cats are very barely domesticated. As someone who regularly deals with feral cats, I can vouch that 'domesticated' is not entirely accurate for them.

My corn snakes have been in captivity for many-many generations. I've had some be so lazy about their food that feeding live would be a terrible idea. I'm also breeding solely for temperament in one of my lines... effectively working to 'domesticate' them the way those foxes were. So... *shrugs*

On another point:

I have fed my corns nothing but f/t. I have not had a single issue with constipation, ever. As long as they have constant access to clean water, the amount of moisture lost to freezing is minimal and easily countered by a couple seconds of drinking.

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lol This happened while I was writing my other comment but I couldn't resist replying.

Ha... As someone who keeps garters, which are known for their frequent bowel movements and messiness, I can honestly say I've never once had an issue with constipation from f/t mice. It takes about a day maybe two tops for it to completely go through their systems.

I wish you luck with your temperament experiment, but I'm honestly in doubt as to whether snakes have the proper mental hardwiring for true 'domestication'. Usually domestication involves a component of social dependence on humans for food or shelter, and I just don't know if I think snakes
have the capability to truly connect those things with us. I think you could definitely breed for bolder/shyer/calmer/whatever snakes, but I'm not sure if it would really qualify as domestication in the true sense of it since they can't really be 'social' with humans. (Not saying they can't interact, but I don't believe they have the capability to think of things that aren't in their immediate environment; like I honestly believe I cease to exist to my snakes once I leave the room)

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

That's essentially a blog without citing any research or even listing an author of the article. Any other supporting evidence?

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It's been established that prolonged freezing and proper thawing reduce moisture in food items. This is done via sublimation and evaporation.

What has never been established is that this results in constipation.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

It's been established that prolonged freezing and proper thawing reduce moisture in food items. This is done via sublimation and evaporation.

What has never been established is that this results in constipation.

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Thanks, Skip. That's what I was getting at.

I thaw and heat my rats in water anyway, which I know a lot of other people do, so the whole moisture loss issue seems nil. I have seen a lot of anecdata from breeders regarding snakes gaining more on live than frozen, but I think it all balances out in the end. I feel over all body tone and condition is much more important than numbers in weight.

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

That's essentially a blog without citing any research or even listing an author of the article. Any other supporting evidence?

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And where is the source list for every answer you've ever given? This is not even an argument on if f/t or fresh is better, they want to know if live is bad. My answer was a technicality that instead of live that can lead to injury, feed fresh dead. And then I continued to explain my own reasons as to why I personally don't give f/t as they're looking to take their animals off of it, none of which include giving a snake a live rat to be strangled alive to fill the idea that the animal needs to do so for some gratification to an instinct or because it's more 'natural'. Giving them live puts your animals life in danger. If they don't like thawed, give them fresh dead and poke at it. But giving them live is just reckless in my opinion.

I'm done with this and will not be responding to this thread again.

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Originally Posted by LostWingsInTime

And where is the source list for every answer you've ever given? This is not even an argument on if f/t or fresh is better, they want to know if live is bad. My answer was a technicality that instead of live that can lead to injury, feed fresh dead. And then I continued to explain my own reasons as to why I personally don't give f/t as they're looking to take their animals off of it, none of which include giving a snake a live rat to be strangled alive to fill the idea that the animal needs to do so for some gratification to an instinct or because it's more 'natural'. Giving them live puts your animals life in danger. If they don't like thawed, give them fresh dead and poke at it. But giving them live is just reckless in my opinion.

I'm done with this and will not be responding to this thread again.

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Hold on a second there. I'm here to learn, just like everyone else. If you knew about something that tied feeding f/t food to constipation, I was hoping to learn from you as someone who feeds mostly f/t myself - nothing more, nothing less. If you're trying to read more into my post, I promise you I don't have nearly that many layers. :P

:grouphug:

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Originally Posted by LostWingsInTime

But giving them live is just reckless in my opinion.

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I feel this statement is a bit hyperbolic. Driving 10 over the speed limit is adding risk. Driving 50 over the speed limit is reckless. I am in total agreement with you that feeding live adds risk to the animal. As I posted earlier I currently have a snake in the hospital because of a feeding gone badly. And it was not a lack of responsibility on my part. That being said, feeding live rats to animal that would eat live rodents in the wild is not reckless. It is adding risk. In the wild there is no way for a snake to avoid the risk of being bitten in the activity of a kill. In captivity we can choose and the mitigating factor is we have a vested interest in the welfare of the animal and any risk we can minimize is worthy of consideration.

As far as natural goes, I think we can all agree there is nothing natural about this hobby other than it involves an organism. If we were truly trying to duplicate nature then we would all be breeding normals in diorama style enclosures, allowing the females to maternally incubate the eggs. We would be feeding our snakes wild caught rodents in the dead of night. Where's the fun in that? We are, as humans always do, manipulating something to satisfy our whimsy. The differing of opinions is about our own comfort levels more then the animals. What are we comfortable doing, providing, trying? We can never know if we are getting it absolutely right because the snake can't tell us and the evidence is often not quantifiable. But we are usually left with no doubt when we get it wrong. Just my $0.02

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Originally Posted by Spiritserpents

This I must quibble with.

The way we feed live to our snakes is nothing close to natural as in nature, the snake and mouse/rat do not find themselves confined in an area that is a couple square feet, unable to escape.

It's like saying that, because it's natural, I should release live rabbits and fawns in my living room for my dog to kill and eat for her dinner. I'm also not going to release song birds, rabbit pups and rodents for my cats to hunt and eat because that, too, would be 'natural'.

There are understandable reasons for feeding live. 'Natural' is not one of them.

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Those are domesticated animals. You can't compare a snake to a dog or a cat. Obviously if people are having an astronomically better feeding rate with live, they prefer live! Have you ever had a dog that just won't eat because he's crazing a live fawn?

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Originally Posted by MalachiJ

Those are domesticated animals. You can't compare a snake to a dog or a cat. Obviously if people are having an astronomically better feeding rate with live, they prefer live! Have you ever had a dog that just won't eat because he's crazing a live fawn?

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I don't think the snakes care either way if the rodent is live or dead. There are a couple of reasons it may seem that they prefer live. One being that the rodent may not be prepared properly therefore the snake does not recognize it as a food item. The other, being that Bp's are very timid snakes and I believe the human presence involved when feeding F/T will cause some snakes not to go for it. This would explain why many times people have success just leaving a f/t rodent in the cage. Look at almost any other species of commonly kept snake that aren't as timid as Bp's and there aren't often problems feeding f/t. If snakes truly preferred live, then there would be no market for frozen rodents.

Not advocating one way or the other, I just think it's a bit silly to say that all snakes prefer live food. There are a few things that tell a snake that something is edible,

Scent
Movement
Heat signature (in the case of most pythons)

Being ambush hunters I don't think that most snakes really hesitate when a food item comes near them. If it's warm, moving, and smells like food, they are driven by instinct to eat it. There is a reason they are called opportunistic hunters.

Gain some experience feeding some other species of python and you'll find that a lot of them will have the rodent wrapped up before they discern whether or not it is live or dead.

Of course I could be completely wrong about all of this.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

I wish you luck with your temperament experiment, but I'm honestly in doubt as to whether snakes have the proper mental hardwiring for true 'domestication'. Usually domestication involves a component of social dependence on humans for food or shelter, and I just don't know if I think snakes
have the capability to truly connect those things with us. I think you could definitely breed for bolder/shyer/calmer/whatever snakes, but I'm not sure if it would really qualify as domestication in the true sense of it since they can't really be 'social' with humans. (Not saying they can't interact, but I don't believe they have the capability to think of things that aren't in their immediate environment; like I honestly believe I cease to exist to my snakes once I leave the room)

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I'm breeding specifically for docility, which I figure is about as close to 'domesticated' as something like a snake or fish is going to get. I doubt many people consider Oranda goldfish, for example, to be anything but 'domesticated', partly because we've made them entirely unsuitable to live in the wild.

My foundation sire is so crazily calm that you can lift his lips up to show off his teeth and he doesn't react at all, before/during/after. He's my go-to snake for interactions with people who are nervous about snakes, even though he's also my largest at 5'6". The babies he sired last year were much calmer than my typical hatchlings and I kept back the least reactive girl, who also happens to a moose in the making like her dad.

Re: prefering live-

Not always. Not even mostly. My first corn snake freaked the 'f' out when I stuck a live rat pink in with him once. He takes f/t like a champ, and always 'kills' it. Most of mine will happily take f/t from my fingers. I think it partly depends on the species, how long its ancestors have been in captivity (there were early issues with some corn lines being lizard eaters and switching them to rodents was a pain... kinda like the issues hoggies have/had), and individual temperament.

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Originally Posted by LostWingsInTime

And where is the source list for every answer you've ever given? This is not even an argument on if f/t or fresh is better, they want to know if live is bad. My answer was a technicality that instead of live that can lead to injury, feed fresh dead. And then I continued to explain my own reasons as to why I personally don't give f/t as they're looking to take their animals off of it, none of which include giving a snake a live rat to be strangled alive to fill the idea that the animal needs to do so for some gratification to an instinct or because it's more 'natural'. Giving them live puts your animals life in danger. If they don't like thawed, give them fresh dead and poke at it. But giving them live is just reckless in my opinion.

I'm done with this and will not be responding to this thread again.

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I usually don't defend people on here - but I guess there's a first time for everything.

You can feed whatever the hell you want. Frozen, live, zombified, freshly killed, freshly frozen, bagged, tagged and t-bagged. If it works for you and your snake, so much the better.

However when Eric politely asked if there was any basis for the link you provided, you got defensive and down right cranky. You got real pissy with perhaps one of the few people on this forum who gives honest, thoughtful, helpful and generally balanced answers without any snark. Instead of packing up your toys and leaving in a huff, use this as an teachable moment. In any forum, some people will question the answers/advice you give.

If it's a personal preference - say so.

If you are doing something based on a belief - make sure that belief is rooted in fact.

Then be prepared to back up that basis.

I can pretty much guarantee you that anything that Mr. Alan recommends based on science, he can back up with corroborating data...

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Originally Posted by tbowman

I don't think the snakes care either way if the rodent is live or dead. There are a couple of reasons it may seem that they prefer live. One being that the rodent may not be prepared properly therefore the snake does not recognize it as a food item. The other, being that Bp's are very timid snakes and I believe the human presence involved when feeding F/T will cause some snakes not to go for it. This would explain why many times people have success just leaving a f/t rodent in the cage. Look at almost any other species of commonly kept snake that aren't as timid as Bp's and there aren't often problems feeding f/t. If snakes truly preferred live, then there would be no market for frozen rodents.

Not advocating one way or the other, I just think it's a bit silly to say that all snakes prefer live food. There are a few things that tell a snake that something is edible,

Scent
Movement
Heat signature (in the case of most pythons)

Being ambush hunters I don't think that most snakes really hesitate when a food item comes near them. If it's warm, moving, and smells like food, they are driven by instinct to eat it. There is a reason they are called opportunistic hunters.

Gain some experience feeding some other species of python and you'll find that a lot of them will have the rodent wrapped up before they discern whether or not it is live or dead.

Of course I could be completely wrong about all of this.

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I was specifically referring to bps. Everything I've read about picky eaters (never experienced, i feed live) states that if f/t is not working even if you have the temps right and try different presentations, live usually works much better. Unlike some of the experienced people on here, I haven't bred 100s-1000s of snakes so this isn't based on experience as much as research. From my point of view a snake does 1 thing and 1 thing only, survive. Which means it basically just eats, sleeps/hides, and mates. So to me, those are important aspects in the mindset of your animal, and it is the most natural part of owning a snake. So if I can, I let them eat live, mate, and give them plenty of great hides. Maybe I'm just crazy. To each his own :)

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Yes if not done responsibly, but it is safe if done responsibly as well.

It's about being educated and knowing how to properly feed live.

I feed 250 live preys a months (not counting hatchlings, that's a drop in a bucket compare to some) and have done so for 9 years with my breeders and holdbacks and NEVER had an issue.

The keys to success

Pre-scent the room bring the feeder near the enclosure 30 min prior to feeding.

Give food and water to the feeder if you purchased it from a store.

Do not stress the feeder.

Do not feed an oversized prey

Drop the feeder and remove if uneaten after 15 to 20 min

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So do you have to watch over each snake until its eaten the prey safely ??

That must take much longer than simply defrosting and offering .

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

So do you have to watch over each snake until its eaten the prey safely ??

That must take much longer than simply defrosting and offering .

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You only have to keep an eye out until the rodent is safely dead - much less time than it takes to thaw. I'm not sure how this makes effective rhetoric for your anti live campaign? More time in the snake room sounds like something for the "pros" list to someone who enjoys spending time interacting with and observing their reptiles. Let's say you give a snake 10-15 minutes to dispatch a prey item before abandoning a feed. Seems to me, feeding live only takes 10-15 minutes longer than feeding f/t and you don't have to thaw anything out. Maybe it takes a bit less than that as you also don't have to employ any of the "tricks" used to get some animals to accept.

The thing about thawing taking longer though is... I can walk away from thawing rats. They aren't going anywhere, I stick them in a cup of cold water and go do something else that needs doing for 20-30 minutes, then come back and spend another 5 heating them until they temp correctly (I always temp with a gun to make sure they're defrosted and heated through). Then I just toss the heated dead feeder in and the girls tag 'em as soon as they get a bead on 'em.

So honestly it's about 25 minute prep and then less than a minute per snake (my girls take them just that fast, but you can usually tell through experience if the snake is going to take that day or not, so it doesn't take 15-20 minutes) another 5 ish for clean up (washing the feeding tray, tongs, putting stuff away, etc.) and I'm done.

VS properly fed live as deb described in which you have to fed and water the feeder first, take it into the room to scent it and get the snakes hyped for 30 minutes, watch each snake kill the rat (which granted, doesn't take that long once the snake does strike and coil; I had to watch Strudel when she was still on live and they are efficient at what they do, but it still took longer than tossing in the dead and heated feeder) remove the rat after 15 to 20 minutes if the snake hasn't eaten it, and then you've got a live feeder at the end of the day that you need to continue to house and feed and water (if someone else doesn't take it)...

Yeah, I'm not entirely convinced that live feeding is all that quicker.

What do the big breeders do? The guys with 100, 500, 1000+ snakes...are they feeding live or FT? If live, are they experiencing all kinds of snake deaths and injuries from their food attacking them?

Feeding live (and F/T) for over 25 years. There are advantages and disadvantages to both- do research, ask others for their experiences and make an educated choice. Although I have seen severe bites and injuries to snakes from live prey, the percentage of injury is very very low if the keeper IS RESPONSIBLE AND USES COMMON SENSE. The best analogy I can give is this: the risk of injury from eating an apple is very low and humans eat apples every day, yet there is a small percentage that chokes on the apple seeds and die. Does that mean we all stop eating apples?

It shouldn't take half an hr to live feed, bring them home give them a bowl of water and some food and continue with your day til its feeding time, no need to scent the room snakes have an absolutly amazing sense of smell, the moment the prey enters the cage your snake knows its there, surpervise till it stops squirming and move on... its not like killing a rodent isnt ingrained in the snakes brain or anything like that rite?... if you wanna feed f/t hurray for you, but its getting really annoying with people all about f/t constantly bad mouthing live feeding practices just because they preffer a different method

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Originally Posted by Lizardlicks

The thing about thawing taking longer though is... I can walk away from thawing rats. They aren't going anywhere, I stick them in a cup of cold water and go do something else that needs doing for 20-30 minutes, then come back and spend another 5 heating them until they temp correctly (I always temp with a gun to make sure they're defrosted and heated through). Then I just toss the heated dead feeder in and the girls tag 'em as soon as they get a bead on 'em.

So honestly it's about 25 minute prep and then less than a minute per snake (my girls take them just that fast, but you can usually tell through experience if the snake is going to take that day or not, so it doesn't take 15-20 minutes) another 5 ish for clean up (washing the feeding tray, tongs, putting stuff away, etc.) and I'm done.

VS properly fed live as deb described in which you have to fed and water the feeder first, take it into the room to scent it and get the snakes hyped for 30 minutes, watch each snake kill the rat (which granted, doesn't take that long once the snake does strike and coil; I had to watch Strudel when she was still on live and they are efficient at what they do, but it still took longer than tossing in the dead and heated feeder) remove the rat after 15 to 20 minutes if the snake hasn't eaten it, and then you've got a live feeder at the end of the day that you need to continue to house and feed and water (if someone else doesn't take it)...

Yeah, I'm not entirely convinced that live feeding is all that quicker.

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You can put f/t in the fridge the day before and not have to wait on thawing at all really - just heating up to the proper temperatures. If you don't breed your own rodents and need to feed/water them before offering it seems to me you can do that while simultaneously scenting the room if that's your way. I'm seeing about 10-15 minutes extra time for live feeding as the only difference really starts when you offer that last rodent and that's if all of your snakes pounce of f/t as quickly as yours. The more zombie dances you have to do the shorter the time gap becomes.

I get these ideas in my head that are perfectly clear yet fail horribly trying to convey them to others. I was attempting to make 2 points in my post.

1) The time requirements for live and f/t are close enough to make that particular argument moot.

2) If somehow they weren't, is spending more time interacting with your reptiles a negative? If it is, I'm not sure what to tell you..

As to the dangers of feeding live, they obviously exist. There are also dangers to feeding f/t improperly. Growing up, we fed exclusively live to mine and my father's collections. We never intervened, even when a rat managed to sink teeth into a snake. My father used to say if the rat kills the snake we'd keep the rat as an honored pet. I never did get that pet rat as we never had an animal more than superficially injured in thousands of feedings. Our snakes weren't chewed up and scarred to pieces either as injuries were rare and typically unnoticable within a couple shed cycles.

Most of my current collection is on f/t because I just don't want to deal with producing that many live rodents. I have 1 rack of rodents I raise for my ball pythons because they honestly are one of the most inconsistent feeders I've ever encountered when dealing purely with f/t prey. The main attractant to raising my own feeders for the royals is that they take food much more consistently and if they do refuse I simply return the rat to it's tub to feed another day.

I've been wondering about this. I'm considering taking in a rescue python. Guy I'm adopting her from feeds live to all of his snakes. However, she's barely two years old, still small for her size, and she has an injury on her neck from the last person who had the snake before the guy did. I don't want to live feed her until she's a little bigger though, since I'm not experienced with snakes and she's not really an experienced hunter. Is there a way I can kind of encourage her to eat thawed/warmed up mice? Or how can I make sure she can eat live safely? The guy suggested I use a shoe box and put her and the mouse in the box until she eats it but I'm hugely concerned about the mouse getting defensive.

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Originally Posted by drmoreau

I've been wondering about this. I'm considering taking in a rescue python. Guy I'm adopting her from feeds live to all of his snakes. However, she's barely two years old, still small for her size, and she has an injury on her neck from the last person who had the snake before the guy did. I don't want to live feed her until she's a little bigger though, since I'm not experienced with snakes and she's not really an experienced hunter. Is there a way I can kind of encourage her to eat thawed/warmed up mice? Or how can I make sure she can eat live safely? The guy suggested I use a shoe box and put her and the mouse in the box until she eats it but I'm hugely concerned about the mouse getting defensive.

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As long as you don't mind wasting a couple f/t feeders, there's no reason you can't try offering f/t feeders for a few weeks just to see if she'll take it if that'd be more convenient for you. Things like blasting them with a blowdryer before feeding to bump the temp, some snakes prefer that you leave the feeder in their tank overnight for them to eat in peace, some strike better when you jiggle it around and make it look 'alive', just try several different things.

If she refuses f/t and you need to do live, it sounds like she's pretty small? Unless you're in an area with a lot more variety in live feeders than where I live, that means you're probably going to be feeding mice. Whereas you do still need to supervise the feed (I watch until the prey is dead then leave my snake to eat) mice are not as strong or dangerous as rats. I've seen mice try their hardest to bite my snake and be unable to even scuff the scales. I also recommend keeping a pair of tongs nearby to put in the prey's mouth if it's in a position to bite the snake once it's been coiled. As long as you supervise and are ready to intervene, the risk of a feeding injury goes down to almost nothing.

I feed frozen because my girl cannot aim to save her life. She's got plenty of "run and hide" instinct, next to nothing of "kill kill kill." This is not an aggressive snake, and I would not trust her to defend herself if faced with something that's actually harmful, such as a live, agitated rat. If you feed live and that works for you, power to you. She eats frozen and I don't plan to switch.

If she doesn't take the meal, I wait until the next feed. So far anytime I leave one in with her overnight, she sleeps on the opposite side of the tank and won't come out until I remove the mouse.

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Originally Posted by John1982

You can put f/t in the fridge the day before and not have to wait on thawing at all really - just heating up to the proper temperatures. If you don't breed your own rodents and need to feed/water them before offering it seems to me you can do that while simultaneously scenting the room if that's your way. I'm seeing about 10-15 minutes extra time for live feeding as the only difference really starts when you offer that last rodent and that's if all of your snakes pounce of f/t as quickly as yours. The more zombie dances you have to do the shorter the time gap becomes.

I get these ideas in my head that are perfectly clear yet fail horribly trying to convey them to others. I was attempting to make 2 points in my post.

1) The time requirements for live and f/t are close enough to make that particular argument moot.

2) If somehow they weren't, is spending more time interacting with your reptiles a negative? If it is, I'm not sure what to tell you..

As to the dangers of feeding live, they obviously exist. There are also dangers to feeding f/t improperly. Growing up, we fed exclusively live to mine and my father's collections. We never intervened, even when a rat managed to sink teeth into a snake. My father used to say if the rat kills the snake we'd keep the rat as an honored pet. I never did get that pet rat as we never had an animal more than superficially injured in thousands of feedings. Our snakes weren't chewed up and scarred to pieces either as injuries were rare and typically unnoticable within a couple shed cycles.

Most of my current collection is on f/t because I just don't want to deal with producing that many live rodents. I have 1 rack of rodents I raise for my ball pythons because they honestly are one of the most inconsistent feeders I've ever encountered when dealing purely with f/t prey. The main attractant to raising my own feeders for the royals is that they take food much more consistently and if they do refuse I simply return the rat to it's tub to feed another day.

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Heh, well, I can't really defrost feeders in my fridge currently because we only have the one fridge and it's got the people food in it. Hubby loves the snakes and is fascinated with my hobby, but he's a chef and I think he'd draw the line there lol.

As far as more time interacting with my snakes, absolutely I want more! Just not on feeding day when they're hungry and primed for dinner haha. I keep interaction on that day to a minimum, only feeding and any other immediate stuff that needs to be addressed like changing out soiled substrate. My girls are curious, rather out going for bps, and have a great feeding response, so I take a couple extra precautions to minimize accidental bites. Interaction is great for me, but the snakes could care less, and really probably do better without it. I do agree, the time thing in general is negligible between the two feeding methods. That's actually what I was trying to get at in my post, I didn't feel one was any faster over the other during the actual feeding all things considered.

When I get into breeding the snakes, I'll probably also have a couple feeder colonies for starting off hatchlings, but over all it's def been less hassle to fed f/t for me than it was to feed live.

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Originally Posted by Lizardlicks

Heh, well, I can't really defrost feeders in my fridge currently because we only have the one fridge and it's got the people food in it. Hubby loves the snakes and is fascinated with my hobby, but he's a chef and I think he'd draw the line there lol.

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You could pick up one of those mini fridges the college kids use that are like 24" X 24". it wouldn't take up much space and it could be used exclusively for your stuff so the Hubby won't be offended.

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Originally Posted by John1982

You only have to keep an eye out until the rodent is safely dead - much less time than it takes to thaw. I'm not sure how this makes effective rhetoric for your anti live campaign? More time in the snake room sounds like something for the "pros" list to someone who enjoys spending time interacting with and observing their reptiles. Let's say you give a snake 10-15 minutes to dispatch a prey item before abandoning a feed. Seems to me, feeding live only takes 10-15 minutes longer than feeding f/t and you don't have to thaw anything out. Maybe it takes a bit less than that as you also don't have to employ any of the "tricks" used to get some animals to accept.

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I wasn't actively campaigning anything ... To be fair my question was aimed at Debs as she's feeding 250 + live each time and as you're supposed to be watching closely I couldn't see how this was possible - basic math.

As regards the myth that somehow feeding d/f frozen is wasteful - surely that only applies to the few who have just one snake . Most have multiple snakes plus lizards and whatever so there's normally another willing recipient :)