Can you buy in?

Last week I listened to a podcast with Terry the curator of reptiles at reptile gardens. He keeps his snakes different than any care sheet and I just want everybody's opinion on this.

He says. First off take the ambient temperature keep that. Drop the hot spot completely and forget about the word humidity. Snakes don't need to thermoregulate in captivity because we as keepers can make there core body temp perfect (80 degrees). Mind you this is how he keeps GTPS breeds them and perfect sheds every time. Any thoughts????????

Actually makes sense since they only thermoregulate because of changing temps in the natural enviroment, in captivity theres no need for them to chase temps, ive actually thought about this cause neither of my snakes really use the cool side of the tank outside of when they do a lap around the tank, if they are just sitting out its always on the hot side... looking forward to reading all the replies on this one

There are many experienced keepers that don't give their collections hot/cool sides without issue. It's all about knowing your animals and having the experience to react properly if something is off. For inexperienced folks, the snakes tend to know more about what they need better than their people do, which is likely why temperature zones get recommended most often. It's not a "wrong or right" thing by any means.

There are many ways of keeping the various species - but a huge amount of the success you will have with it relies directly on your level of knowledge and observational skills. :cool:

I suspect in both areas his skill is high. :rofl:

I commend you for thinking of taking the time to raise your skills to the same level - I think it is something we should all try and achieve. :)

Just want to throw a few more things out there. Don't change your husbandry very quickly. Another thing is I'm not asking for advice on this just want to know what everyone thinks about this.

I think I'd rather give my snakes a temperature range and let them figure out where they want to be, with the caveat that I keep a variety of species with a wide range of temperature and humidity requirements, so keeping them all at a constant 80*F or 82*F or 85*F would mean that somebody isn't going to be very happy.

Plus, doing so would mean putting in separate HVAC for my snake room since right now it's controlled by the house temperature. If I had a separate building on my property that would make a big difference.

IDK, I'd imagine some species would have a different "perfect" core temp. I know stuff like diamond pythons, rubber boas and some Asian rat snakes die when kept at too high of heat. I think that it's quite interesting.

Also why are we forgetting the word humidity. Do you have a link to this pod cast?

I'll get it for you soon.. for example gtps all the care sheets say you need to spray them and keep the humidity up. He doesn't because at 80 degrees a snake can do everything they need to do I'll get that long later tonight

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/morelia...ything-morelia

The temp thing I guess I can understand, a lot of people have had success with having the ambients stable and not utilizing a hot spot, but I still prefer to provide a range for my animals. (I haven't listened to the podcast, as I am at work) but from how you are wording it, it sounds like he is saying 80 degrees ambient no matter what the species, if that is the case I disagree with that. You can't make a catch all blanket statement like that. The humidity statement I would disagree with as well. What is the ambient humidity in the room he is keeping them in? I could understand if the humidity in that room is high overall and he is saying there is no need for supplimental spray downs, because spray downs generally don't have long term boosts on hummidity. On my lizard cages I have a deep substrate layer that I water maybe once a week, thin substrate (wood chips, etc can't hold the moisture like deep natural soil can for longer periods) but to say there is no need to monitor humidity or boost it if it is low, I do not buy into. Certain species require certain humidity levels, some if it is too high can get RI, some if too low can get RI, with Lizards if they require a high humidity and don't have access to it they can get dehydrated which can lead to a lot of issues down the road, IMO it isn't just about a perfect shed.

Lizards require different things. The way I'm wording it is exactly what he is stating from black mambas to prarie rattle snakes he has not found a snake yet that absolutely needs humidity and absolutely needs to be anywhere out of the range of 78-82 degrees. The podcast is long but he goes in to why more. If I typed it all out it would have to be relesed in a book haha

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Originally Posted by Black Hills Reptiles

Lizards require different things. The way I'm wording it is exactly what he is stating from black mambas to prarie rattle snakes he has not found a snake yet that absolutely needs humidity and absolutely needs to be anywhere out of the range of 78-82 degrees. The podcast is long but he goes in to why more. If I typed it all out it would have to be relesed in a book haha

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Ok again as I can't listen to it right now, and going on what you just typed I do not buy into any blanket statement that covers a large range of species like that. That would be like saying well a siberian husky and chihuahua are both dogs, so they will both thrive in a constant XX degree environment.

Falls into liability.
Do as I say, not as I do because what works in my house might not in your and then you will look for someone to blame.

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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

Ok again as I can't listen to it right now, and going on what you just typed I do not buy into any blanket statement that covers a large range of species like that. That would be like saying well a siberian husky and chihuahua are both dogs, so they will both thrive in a constant XX degree environment.

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All dogs no matter what breed have a core body temp of 101-102.5 the thing that he is stating is every snake no matter how you keep them they keep there core body temp at 80~ they in they wild are trying to avoid temps of higher than 90 and avoid humidity that's what he says. I'm not saying do this I just like opinions and what other people think :)

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Originally Posted by Black Hills Reptiles

All dogs no matter what breed have a core body temp of 101-102.5 the thing that he is stating is every snake no matter how you keep them they keep there core body temp at 80~ they in they wild are trying to avoid temps of higher than 90 and avoid humidity that's what he says. I'm not saying do this I just like opinions and what other people think :)

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And I am giving you my opinion, all dogs do maintain a core body temp, but a husky can survive and thrive in the snow where a chihuahua will not, even though they have the same core body temp. A BP is generally said to need a hot spot (if being utilized) in the low 90s, whereas Anteresia are commonly provided with a hot spot of 100+ degrees, each species comes from a different environment. I could understand saying " all GTPs can be kept like this" or "all xx species...", but again it is my opinion that a blanket statement can't be made to cover every species of snake across the board. You have to remember just because an animal (any animal, even humans) are alive and eating does not mean they are thriving.

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Originally Posted by Black Hills Reptiles

Last week I listened to a podcast with Terry the curator of reptiles at reptile gardens. He keeps his snakes different than any care sheet and I just want everybody's opinion on this.

He says. First off take the ambient temperature keep that. Drop the hot spot completely and forget about the word humidity. Snakes don't need to thermoregulate in captivity because we as keepers can make there core body temp perfect (80 degrees). Mind you this is how he keeps GTPS breeds them and perfect sheds every time. Any thoughts????????

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Just an added question, why is your user name Black Hills Reptiles, isn't that the same company as the guy who is doing this podcast? I mean are you referencing back onto yourself asking for thoughts? If so you coulda just said that.

No Terry owns black hills pythons.. I haven't quite decided if I am sticking with this or not because of that reason. I have never ment Terry just listen to a lot of stuff he does and he always blows my mind

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Originally Posted by Black Hills Reptiles

No Terry owns black hills pythons.. I haven't quite decided if I am sticking with this or not because of that reason. I have never ment Terry just listen to a lot of stuff he does and he always blows my mind

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It's no biggy, I was just asking.

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Originally Posted by Black Hills Reptiles

No Terry owns black hills pythons.. I haven't quite decided if I am sticking with this or not because of that reason. I have never ment Terry just listen to a lot of stuff he does and he always blows my mind

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I'm listening to this podcast now. Trying to figure out where the fluff ends. This thing is long.

Oh yeah it's long but it's really good

Alright so here is what is actually said for those that don't have the 2 hours to listen to this.

He does specify that if you have something in your living room and don't have absolute control of the ambient temperature everything he said pretty much goes out the window.

He mentions that a basking spot of 88-90 is not necessary as long as the snake can get up to 75-82 degrees and that is the optimal temperature for morelia (carpets/diamond python) and green tree python species to live at and that these are ambush predators and these species moving around all the time is actually a sign of stress. He mentions that with this species some people are keeping are giving much colder temps because that's what happens in their natural habitats which is what's causing RI's.

His mention of humidity is actually quite interesting. He says what is actually important is the hydration of the snake, these overly high basking temps are what is causing snakes to get dehydrated which is in turn the thing causing various disease/issues including RI's and bad sheds. The high temps are causing overactive metabolism and things like that.

Overall I recommend a listen, this is quite interesting and he makes a lot of interesting points. I'm certainly going to take some of his ideas and maybe lightly test them for my own snakes as they seem to drink ALOT of water and have had some occasional stuck shed in the tail region and it makes me think that maybe my overall ambients my be too high.

So it wasn't a catch all statement for every snake species?

He does state that this is how he keeps all his snakes not just his morelia.

He used morelia for an example and most of the taking but he was also on morelia raido

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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

So it wasn't a catch all statement for every snake species?

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I feel as if that is probably where he'd start off any new species he keeps if he hadn't kept it before. 75-84 is really the middle range of most species kept anyways so unless someone has a snake that has specialized situation I'd imagine it could be used as a catch all. He mentioned thats what he keeps his commercial snake collection at, that includes the following species:

Green Tree Pythons, Woma Pythons, Jungle Carpet Pythons, Blood Pythons, Diamond Pythons, Inland Carpet Pythons, Boa Constrictors, and Ball Pythons.

He did say that it was what he keeps all tropical pythons/boas at though.

After listening to this fully, I definitely agree with a lot of this. If you think about it, any tropical/sub-tropical species of snake in the wild will never truly "bask" under 90 deg heat. Multiple layers of jungle canopy don't allow for hot spots and cool spots, making an appropriate ambient temp the most important factor.

I do think though that the dogmatic hot and cool spot husbandry is likely a result of something that "worked" and became standard.

So, with this theory, you could simply keep ambient temps in a snake room at 80 deg and have unheated racks?

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Originally Posted by JoshSloane

After listening to this fully, I definitely agree with a lot of this. If you think about it, any tropical/sub-tropical species of snake in the wild will never truly "bask" under 90 deg heat. Multiple layers of jungle canopy don't allow for hot spots and cool spots, making an appropriate ambient temp the most important factor.

I do think though that the dogmatic hot and cool spot husbandry is likely a result of something that "worked" and became standard.

So, with this theory, you could simply keep ambient temps in a snake room at 80 deg and have unheated racks?

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The way I understand it is in his private collection not at reptile gardens he keeps the ambient temperature in his basement in the 78-82 range with no hot spot.


I just downloaded the episode via iTunes so I'm going to listen again just to make sure I heard what I remember

Just a little take on my expierence, ive been staying at my girls house to help with her kids, ive brought my 2 snakes with me because i dont feel comfortable leaving them in someone elses care at my house, im using printer paper as substrate, gave them a hide and a bowl of water.... both went into shed the day after coming here and the only thing i did was take a paper towl wet it with some warm water and put it in the hides.... both of them gave me a perfect skin sock, i have both of there temps at 85 no misting or anything, all i did to the cages is covered half the screen top with foil... ive gotten some pee, some poo,and they are both nice and content inside there hides only poking there face out every once in a while

I am listening to it right now to try and fully understand what he is actually saying.

Just now getting through the part that this thread is about. I understand what he is saying, and he makes some valid/interesting points. I do not keep Morelia, and obviously what he is doing is successful for him. However I still have my own doubts just from my experience, that being said I have not ever nor will I really every have the ability to experiment with this as I do not plan to keep a room at that high of an ambient anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

Just now getting through the part that this thread is about. I understand what he is saying, and he makes some valid/interesting points. I do not keep Morelia, and obviously what he is doing is successful for him. However I still have my own doubts just from my experience, that being said I have not ever nor will I really every have the ability to experiment with this as I do not plan to keep a room at that high of an ambient anytime soon.

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It's hard to argue with his logic on a lot of the points he makes.

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Originally Posted by Jhill001

It's hard to argue with his logic on a lot of the points he makes.

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Yes, I believe I stated a lot of what he said makes sense...I also stated I have no experience with keeping animals this way and don't plan to try it now. I can tell you this method will NOT work with the lizards I keep, that being said it is hard to argue with his logic when you have zero first hand experience with said method. I simply said I still have my doubts based on my beliefs and the methods I have found to successfully keep animals...that being said, I bet it is safe to say at least half of this community doesn't think they way I keep my animals is necessary for their well being, which is why to each their own. What works for some will not work for others and visa versa.

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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

Yes, I believe I stated a lot of what he said makes sense...I also stated I have no experience with keeping animals this way and don't plan to try it now. I can tell you this method will NOT work with the lizards I keep, that being said it is hard to argue with his logic when you have zero first hand experience with said method. I simply said I still have my doubts based on my beliefs and the methods I have found to successfully keep animals...that being said, I bet it is safe to say at least half of this community doesn't think they way I keep my animals is necessary for their well being, which is why to each their own. What works for some will not work for others and visa versa.

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I think he made a comment that it certainly wouldn't work for some lizards and tortoises but it was very brief.

So how would one heat a snake room safely full time, without having to worry about a space heater burning out and causing a fire?

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Originally Posted by JoshSloane

So how would one heat a snake room safely full time, without having to worry about a space heater burning out and causing a fire?

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I would assume you dedicate your whole basement and have a completely separate hvac system with central air. I think a space heater would do the same just would need it on a thermostat

Yeah, HVAC is the way to go if you have the space and can afford that monster heat bill. I have found many space heaters with thermostats, just worried about their reliability.

I really would like to make this work, but would have to confine it to a snake room.

For sure I am going to try it. My thought is to wire a digital thermostat to an outlet with a space heater plugged in.

Oil filled heater.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Oil filled heater.

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Would this have a lowered fire danger than a standard space heater?

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Oil filled heater.

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Plugged into one of these. :gj:

Would you just place the probe in the middle of the room? Leave the heaters setting on medium and let the T stat just cycle it on and off?

Here's how I keep my snake room. The Ranco thermostat is set to 78, so it never falls below that ever, but it's getting to the time of year where the heater never runs at all here in AZ. I keep the heater's own thermostat turned barely above the point where if the Ranco fails, it won't get too warm. I circled where I have the probe for the Ranco placed.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s...RoomHeater.jpg

When I get my own house I plan on going back to ambient only temps. It's just going to be less of a fire risk with all the snakes and enclosures I plan on having.

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Originally Posted by Marrissa

When I get my own house I plan on going back to ambient only temps. It's just going to be less of a fire risk with all the snakes and enclosures I plan on having.

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One heater in a room only allows for two points of failure, the heating element and the thermostat. Having a bunch of little heaters makes it harder to control the ambient temp of the entire room and offers many points of failure.

Someone is more likely to inspect one or two pieces of hardware than go through and inspect 10 different pads and thermostats.

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Here's how I keep my snake room. The Ranco thermostat is set to 78, so it never falls below that ever, but it's getting to the time of year where the heater never runs at all here in AZ. I keep the heater's own thermostat turned barely above the point where if the Ranco fails, it won't get too warm. I circled where I have the probe for the Ranco placed.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s...RoomHeater.jpg

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Eric this picture is super helpful. This is exactly how I envisioned this in my mind. So are all your racks unheated themselves? No heat tape or heat wire?

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Originally Posted by JoshSloane

Eric this picture is super helpful. This is exactly how I envisioned this in my mind. So are all your racks unheated themselves? No heat tape or heat wire?

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Nah - they all have 3" heat tape. I'm still in the "I like to give my collection options" camp. It's what works for me. ;)

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Originally Posted by JoshSloane

So how would one heat a snake room safely full time, without having to worry about a space heater burning out and causing a fire?

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You are already in this boat if you have heat mats or tape. ;)

He does say that he's not calling for everyone to up and change everything just because that's what he does.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

You are already in this boat if you have heat mats or tape. ;)

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Yeah, see thats what I was just thinking. I like the idea you had about the oil based heater. After reading reviews it seems to be the best option. I really want to move over to the ambient only practice. I feel like having one central heater, rather than yards and yards of heat tape, connectors and multiple thermostats is safer.

Any thoughts?

The power draw on these radiant heaters seems pretty high compared to the draw with heat tape/mats. Anyone using them see a drastic increase in their electric bill?