Potential Nerve/Muscle Damage?

After a neglectful past owner left Loki alone in an enclosure with a live (and bigger) rat, The little guy sustained some injuries. When I saw him, he had a three inch long scab along his belly, and I recommended that he be taken to a vet for such a large wound on a little snake. I'm not sure if he ever saw a vet, but after adopting Loki, I've noticed he seems to lack control over his tail end. This is especially noticeable in the bath where he flips himself over because his tail locks into position. Does this sound like muscle or nerve damage? Will it effect his ability to breed? Should I take him to the vet for an injury that's already healed?

If he has no hind end motor control I would forget about using him as a breeder.

As for the vet, it would depend on how long ago the injury was, how well it's healing, does it look infected, etc.

If it's totally healed there is probably nothing you can do. No need to go to the vet.

As for breeding... I think the control of the lower end of the tail is vital. Sorry! :(

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Originally Posted by bcr229

If he has no hind end motor control I would forget about using him as a breeder.

As for the vet, it would depend on how long ago the injury was, how well it's healing, does it look infected, etc.

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It is completely healed and just a scar now, though it feels deep.

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Originally Posted by AllieKin

If it's totally healed there is probably nothing you can do. No need to go to the vet.

As for breeding... I think the control of the lower end of the tail is vital. Sorry! :(

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I thought so, he's such a pretty pastel and I had hoped to breed him eventually. Oh well, he'll make a nice pet then :)

As long as he can poop and urinate, don't be worried.

Are you talking about medical baths to help heal the belly wound or just soaking? If it's just a soak I would stop that completely, putting an animal with any sort of motor difficulties in water is just an accident waiting to happen IMO.

Agree, probably not a good idea to breed one with hind-end nerve damage. Is it just kind of a loss of coordination or complete lack of motor control? Like, can he wrap it around your hand if you put it next to him? Just curious. I have a couple animals with what seem to be long-term neurological issues, so I always like to follow stories like this one. Let us know if you notice a change in his motor ability over time!

I soak all of my snakes right before they shed, though I never leave them unattended and the water isn't more than an inch deep. He seems to be able to control the tip of his tail and can hold onto me pretty well. I wish I could upload a video of how he moves, but I'm not sure how to do it on this site.

I'm not sure how to upload video, but could you upload a pic of the injured area? If it was bad enough that the belly scutes were completely removed or something that would definitely affect how he moves. In my experience with garters that had serious nerve damage it just got worse further down from the site of the injury, but that was mostly spinal stuff. Maybe this will be something that improves with time.

I don't have him with me right now, but I just uploaded a video I took awhile ago of him here > https://youtu.be/QS-C6PBc_94 Though next time I'm with him, I'll try to get pictures as well. He's a wiggly little guy.

This is just a hunch but he actually seems like he can control that part of the body and is trying to keep it from touching the ground/water. How badly damaged are the scales on his belly in that area, and does he flinch away if you touch him there? Looks like he may just be really sensitive since he's still healing.

Does he move normally when out of the water or still try to roll that part of his body off the ground?

You can see the scars but he won't flinch if you touch them, it looks fully healed to me. He does it sometimes out of the water but it's extremely noticeable whenever I let him soak. He was also pretty agressive and grumpy right after he was hurt (understandably so!) But now he's mellowed out and doesn't strike at me anymore, so I take that as a sign he's feeling better.

Soaking before a shed really isn't necessary to begin with (just do a search, there are a lot of threads on it; the general consensus is that it is stressful and can deplete beneficial oils that help the shedding process when a moist hide would be a better idea) but since it seems to stress this guy so much you might want to stop soaking at least for him.

If he doesn't do it all the time and moves normally this may be something that gets better with time. If it improves I would see no problem with eventually breeding him.

What DVirginiana said. If humidity is spot on they will shed OK. Soaking is not necessary and can be less helpful because it can mess with the oils that form between the old and new scales which help to slough the old skin. It is not helpful for them, and it can be quite stressful.

What temperature was the water?

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Originally Posted by dr del

What temperature was the water?

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I had that thought too.

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Originally Posted by dr del

What temperature was the water?

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You know, I've never measured the water temp. I always run it so it feels warm but not hot. I've never had a snake recoil from the water, and I let them venture off my hand when they're ready.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

Soaking before a shed really isn't necessary to begin with (just do a search, there are a lot of threads on it; the general consensus is that it is stressful and can deplete beneficial oils that help the shedding process when a moist hide would be a better idea) but since it seems to stress this guy so much you might want to stop soaking at least for him.

If he doesn't do it all the time and moves normally this may be something that gets better with time. If it improves I would see no problem with eventually breeding him.

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I probably will stop soaking him since he seems to freak out a bit. I've never used the moist hide idea so I'll hafta look into it :) I hope he can breed one day, we were curious what a pastel and axanthic would make.

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Originally Posted by anicatgirl

What DVirginiana said. If humidity is spot on they will shed OK. Soaking is not necessary and can be less helpful because it can mess with the oils that form between the old and new scales which help to slough the old skin. It is not helpful for them, and it can be quite stressful.

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I can never get the humidity to stay above 50, so when I asked some friends what they did, they recommended bathing. While for Loki it may be stressful, and perhaps for the new snake too since I'm not sure how to read her yet, My normal ball python does seem to enjoy them and has been having perfect sheds each time she gets a bath.

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Originally Posted by Vanouri

My normal ball python does seem to enjoy them and has been having perfect sheds each time she gets a bath.

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What does she do that makes you think she 'enjoys' it? BPs signs of stress are things we would think mean something else 'enjoys' something, such as increased alertness, tongue flicking, movement, ect. It's really not beneficial at all and can actually make a shed more difficult.

You can fill a hide with damp sphagnum moss. The snake will go in there on its own if it needs more humidity during a shed.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

What does she do that makes you think she 'enjoys' it? BPs signs of stress are things we would think mean something else 'enjoys' something, such as increased alertness, tongue flicking, movement, ect. It's really not beneficial at all and can actually make a shed more difficult.

You can fill a hide with damp sphagnum moss. The snake will go in there on its own if it needs more humidity during a shed.

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I can thank you for your advice now. We are having this debate on another thread. I know my snake as she is more than just a pet to me. I know how to read when she starts getting uneasy and remove her from situations when she does so.

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Originally Posted by Vanouri

I can thank you for your advice now. We are having this debate on another thread. I know my snake as she is more than just a pet to me. I know how to read when she starts getting uneasy and remove her from situations when she does so.

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You're doing something that could be potentially harmful to your snake (look it up; literally dozens of threads on this) because you think she 'likes' it. Soaking is a different debate entirely.

But, you've already been told by multiple people that it is absolutely not necessary and potentially harmful, so if you're going to keep doing it you're going to keep doing it.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

You're doing something that could be potentially harmful to your snake (look it up; literally dozens of threads on this) because you think she 'likes' it. Soaking is a different debate entirely.

But, you've already been told by multiple people that it is absolutely not necessary and potentially harmful, so if you're going to keep doing it you're going to keep doing it.

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There will always be disagreement over what is best for my snake, but it is up to me to choose. I do not soak her just because "I think she likes it". She sheds best after a ten minute soak. It's no different than when she soaks in her water bowl. Until I see a negative health effect from it or am told by a certified vet, I will continue to do what works best for the both of us.

Have you tried giving her the appropriate humidity and a humid hide? If not, you can't really say she sheds best after a ten minute soak.

Does she actually soak on her own in the water dish? If so, that might actually be a sign something is off with her. I've never heard of a BP that does that just because.

She sheds in one piece wheras she didn't before. Again, I'm not changing my practices because you disagree with them. I will give my pastel a humid hut since he freaks out in the water, but don't push for much else. I raise my snakes how I think best and it works for me. This thread is supposed to be about Loki and how his wound will effect him, not about how I bathe my snakes.

And I bet he sheds perfectly and in one piece when actually provided with a humid hide or proper ambient humidity. The problem doesn't appear to have been nerve damage, but a bad reaction to being soaked. Only a vet can tell you 100% though.

Also, without going back, am I imagining that you said you had trouble keeping ambient humidity above 50? Or was that another thread?

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

And I bet he sheds perfectly and in one piece when actually provided with a humid hide or proper ambient humidity. The problem doesn't appear to have been nerve damage, but a bad reaction to being soaked. Only a vet can tell you 100% though.

Also, without going back, am I imagining that you said you had trouble keeping ambient humidity above 50? Or was that another thread?

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Then that'll be great for him. His reaction isn't initially bad until being in the water for a few minutes. He seemed to be trying to get out but I noticed his tail and took a video, and promptly removed him after. He does flip sometimes out of the water so I didn't think it to be only water related.

I do seem to have issues with humidity but that may just be the gauge I have, after some reading I've noticed a lot of bad reviews and inaccurate readings for this type. I'll be getting a better hydrometer/thermometer this week so as to have a more accurate reading. I can then troubleshoot from there.

That is really weird. But he mostly moves normally? So, when he flips, does it look like just a continuation of what he's doing in the water trying to keep the injury off the ground, or is he like, actually doing a rolling motion?

Let us know if you're still having problems with humidity after you get the new gauge. If it's below 50% that could easily be the reason you were seeing shedding issues.

It looks a lot like what he was doing in the bath, but I can't understand him trying to keep it off the ground if he's okay with me touching it. I'm not sure if I just have a gentle hand and everything else bothers him or what though.

I was told to raise it up to 70% near shedding time but I could never keep it there. I'll be getting the gauge hopefully tomorrow.

Huh. Maybe try putting him on newspaper or paper towels for a little while and see if the texture of the substrate is what's bothering him? It'd get you closer to finding out if this is just sensitivity or nerve damage at any rate.

The wet sphagnum moss in a hide provides at least a little microcosm of the correct humidity even if you can't keep ambient that high, since it can't really evaporate off or anything. Probably not necessary all the time, but definitely helpful during a shed.

I'll try that, he's on Aspen right now. Probably do the paper towels since we don't get newspapers. He seems to do okay when he eats as well, that was something I was worried over. He strikes and wraps up normally, you can't see anything unusual in his tail. I never thought it may be a sensitivity issue, and I'm not quite sure if that can be treated.

Keep us updated, I'm interested to know what exactly his problem turns out to be. Hopefully it's just sensitivity and will get better over time!

I've never liked aspen. I have absolutely no reason for this, I've just never liked it. I could see those little slivers maybe getting annoying if they poked at scar tissue though.

btw, sorry for derailing the conversation a bit earlier (lol I will still gladly debate the merits of soaking till I'm blue in the face, but it didn't really belong on this thread). It's the result of getting online while waiting for a tow-truck for one vehicle and a buddy with jumper cables for another.

I shall, and I do hope for him to get better! I've been trying to get rid of this last bag I have before switching them all. Aspen seems to have a lot of dust. I have my Vraska on EcoEarth (I think that's the name) and she digs tunnels through it.

Hope you get your vehicle troubles out. Who knows, maybe if the humid hut works out for Loki, I'll give them to my other two.

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Originally Posted by Vanouri

I can never get the humidity to stay above 50.

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What kind of tank/enclosure do you have? I might have a couple of solutions for you.

Also, warm water to us is probably too warm for them, as we are OK with higher temps. He would probably be especially sensitive because of his spot.

I am glad to read you're getting a new way to check temps and humidity. When you say gauge I think like a dial, and those are horridly inaccurate.

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Originally Posted by anicatgirl

What kind of tank/enclosure do you have? I might have a couple of solutions for you.

Also, warm water to us is probably too warm for them, as we are OK with higher temps. He would probably be especially sensitive because of his spot.

I am glad to read you're getting a new way to check temps and humidity. When you say gauge I think like a dial, and those are horridly inaccurate.

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I have them in glass tanks with mesh tops, I've heard to cover them with foil and I'll be trying that.

I didn't think of his wound being more sensitive to temperature but that definitely makes sense.

I was using the "dial-like" gauge but I noticed it didn't fluctuate at all and saw a lot of people saying they were inaccurate. I'm looking at some new ones now and will be making a stop at the pet store tomorrow for an upgrade. Any brand you recommend?

I would like to see belly pictures. Usually don't see rodent damage there.
What were they using for heat and what are you using for heat? Is it regulated?
Also "Your feel" is way off from theirs.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

I would like to see belly pictures. Usually don't see rodent damage there.
What were they using for heat and what are you using for heat? Is it regulated?
Also "Your feel" is way off from theirs.

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I'll be getting some pictures of him this weekend and I'll try to get some of his belly. I didn't notice scarring anywhere else. I'm pretty sure they used a heat mat before but I'm not sure if their's was regulated. His new heating pad has a thermostat so it shouldn't get too hot for him. Should I maybe turn it down a little more for him? He has a thicker layer of aspen in there so his heating area feels warm to the touch but not hot (then again that is my lame human heat sense)

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Originally Posted by Vanouri

I'll be getting some pictures of him this weekend and I'll try to get some of his belly. I didn't notice scarring anywhere else. I'm pretty sure they used a heat mat before but I'm not sure if their's was regulated. His new heating pad has a thermostat so it shouldn't get too hot for him. Should I maybe turn it down a little more for him? He has a thicker layer of aspen in there so his heating area feels warm to the touch but not hot (then again that is my lame human heat sense)

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Your core temp runs about 98 degrees and you don't want their spot to be over 95. The math tells it all there, you can get a non-contact thermometer.
I even saw some at Home Depot for $35 that plug into your phone yesterday :O
As far as the aspen goes, snake can and will burrow so you want to know the temperature of the glass under the substrate.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Your core temp runs about 98 degrees and you don't want their spot to be over 95. The math tells it all there, you can get a non-contact thermometer.
I even saw some at Home Depot for $35 that plug into your phone yesterday :O
As far as the aspen goes, snake can and will burrow so you want to know the temperature of the glass under the substrate.

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I don't have a reliable thermometer or hygrometer in my tanks since I was using the "guage like" ones. I've ordered some online and should recieve them soon. ( Look I do take advice sometimes!)
I've noticed my other snakes burrow, but the injured one doesn't like to. I'm not sure if he's just picky or if it may hurt him. I'll be changing his substrate since another user pointed out that the aspen may be looking at him.

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Originally Posted by Vanouri

another user pointed out that the aspen may be looking at him.

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I know this is a typo, but I literally laughed out loud when I read that :D

As long as your thermostat is set up right, it should be keeping the temp on the glass appropriate but having accurate thermometers will help regardless. What temp do you run your hot spots again? There's some variation in what people prefer, so just curious.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

I know this is a typo, but I literally laughed out loud when I read that :D

As long as your thermostat is set up right, it should be keeping the temp on the glass appropriate but having accurate thermometers will help regardless. What temp do you run your hot spots again? There's some variation in what people prefer, so just curious.

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He's a suspicious snake, the spying aspen makes him uncomfortable I'm sure xD I'm sorry, I did mean poking though.
I was told to run it around 92-93, though I'm wondering now if that's a bit hot.

Eh, I feel like the temp probably isn't what's bothering him. Unless you notice him only acting odd when he's over the hot spot I probably wouldn't bother with changing it.

I don't usually observe him moving in the cage, he's pretty private, though I notice him spending about equal time on each side of the enclosure. I notice it mostly when I'm he's slithering around on my bed or in the water. I don't think the texture of my sheet should bother him, they're pretty smooth by my human standards.

It seems like this is probably something you'll just have to watch for over time and see if he improves. It can be hard to catch them doing certain things; I know mine probably moves, but sometimes it seems like she's in the same spot for days at a time.

I do hope he improves, I was looking forward to breeding him a few years down the road. I'll be posting pictures of his belly this weekend though :)

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Originally Posted by Vanouri

I have them in glass tanks with mesh tops, I've heard to cover them with foil and I'll be trying that.

I didn't think of his wound being more sensitive to temperature but that definitely makes sense.

I was using the "dial-like" gauge but I noticed it didn't fluctuate at all and saw a lot of people saying they were inaccurate. I'm looking at some new ones now and will be making a stop at the pet store tomorrow for an upgrade. Any brand you recommend?

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Yup!!! Foil is how I'm making my tank work. I will for sure be upgrading to a rack or animal plastics enclosure when my girl gets bigger. My foil is wrapped around cardboard, and is about an inch from either end of the screen and there is a cutout for the light. Gotta have some air circulation.

And don't feel too bad, I ended up with dial ones initially too, the important part is you noticed they're useless and are fixing it :D

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Originally Posted by anicatgirl

Yup!!! Foil is how I'm making my tank work. I will for sure be upgrading to a rack or animal plastics enclosure when my girl gets bigger. My foil is wrapped around cardboard, and is about an inch from either end of the screen and there is a cutout for the light. Gotta have some air circulation.

And don't feel too bad, I ended up with dial ones initially too, the important part is you noticed they're useless and are fixing it :D

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I haven't thought of using plastic, I like the look of the glass enclosures so far though :) maybe if I can't keep the conditions ideal, I'll switch!

Ends up it'll be a bit longer since the local pet store didn't have anything besides dials. I had to order some online but I'm moving in two weeks so I had them sent to my new address. Kind of a pain in the butt xD

Check your local walmart or hardware store for thermometers.
I have found Home Depot and Lowes have the best reptile supplies.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Check your local walmart or hardware store for thermometers.
I have found Home Depot and Lowes have the best reptile supplies.

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I'll go get some temporary ones from there next time I'm out :) never thought to really check there!

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Originally Posted by Vanouri

I haven't thought of using plastic, I like the look of the glass enclosures so far though :) maybe if I can't keep the conditions ideal, I'll switch!

Ends up it'll be a bit longer since the local pet store didn't have anything besides dials. I had to order some online but I'm moving in two weeks so I had them sent to my new address. Kind of a pain in the butt xD

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I also use a Reptifogger to maintain humidity, because I feel that misting into a glass tank is insufficient. I like the look of it, but as my BP isn't really a display animal cause she's not active, I decided to do what would probably end up being best for her in the long run, and when she goes into her rack, I will get a less humid reliant reptile that is less hiding oriented to stick into my 20 Long :snake: