RI: Clean out her nose?

So after noticing an RI in my three year old ball and taking her to the vet (got her injections, vet said he wasn't too worried as the infection was still in it's early stages and she seemed very healthy otherwise), I've noticed she is starting to hold her head up more to help with her breathing. I know it's only been three days since I've started giving her the injections and it's not an instant fix, but I'd like to help her out more... she is in the smallest room in the house with a humidifier and temps stay above 80 always. Is there something I can do to clean out her nose to help her breathe more? My husband took her to the vet as I was working and he said that was the first thing the vet did (it was a drop off appointment, so my husband wasn't there to see how the vet did it and he didn't ask how he did it either). Thank you! Any other tips with dealing with RI's are appreciated. How long does it usually take to clear up?

Thank you!

If you want to help her, leave her alone. Trying to clean out her nose will likely stress her out more than anything.

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Originally Posted by ratchet

So after noticing an RI in my three year old ball and taking her to the vet (got her injections, vet said he wasn't too worried as the infection was still in it's early stages and she seemed very healthy otherwise), I've noticed she is starting to hold her head up more to help with her breathing. I know it's only been three days since I've started giving her the injections and it's not an instant fix, but I'd like to help her out more... she is in the smallest room in the house with a humidifier and temps stay above 80 always. Is there something I can do to clean out her nose to help her breathe more? My husband took her to the vet as I was working and he said that was the first thing the vet did (it was a drop off appointment, so my husband wasn't there to see how the vet did it and he didn't ask how he did it either). Thank you! Any other tips with dealing with RI's are appreciated. How long does it usually take to clear up?

Thank you!

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Did the vet take a culture first? I ask as the snake raising its head for long periods is a sign the congestion is worse not better.

If its a viral antibiotics won't help you could try fogging f10sc. I used this to clear mine it takes about tens days. You can youtube how to do the treatment.

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Originally Posted by dr del

Did the vet take a culture first? I ask as the snake raising its head for long periods is a sign the congestion is worse not better.

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Yeah, but she started doing that maybe a day after her first injection, do you think that maybe it might take a bit for the meds to kick in? I'll see how she's doing after work today, she was laying flat on top of her hide this morning, which was nice to see. I'm just curious as to how long the meds take to start making an improvement, but I guess it'd vary from snake to snake and also depending on the conditions and everything... the vet didn't take a culture, he offered but he said he was confident of what it was and seeing that this was her first infection in the three years of her life and she seemed healthy in all other aspects, he said he was confident in giving us the medication for the infection.

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Originally Posted by Rickys_Reptiles

If you want to help her, leave her alone. Trying to clean out her nose will likely stress her out more than anything.

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That makes sense... the injections are probably stressful enough as it is. This being my first experience with a sick snake, I'm just trying to figure out everything I can do to help her. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by J&A exotics

If its a viral antibiotics won't help you could try fogging f10sc. I used this to clear mine it takes about tens days. You can youtube how to do the treatment.

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Okay. My other snakes are fine (I have been doing my best of keeping her clear from my other snakes and I clean up after dealing with her before caring for the others), so I'm thinking it's not viral. I have been doing a Vicks and Eucalyptus sauna with her as well. Thanks for the link!

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Originally Posted by ratchet

That makes sense... the injections are probably stressful enough as it is. This being my first experience with a sick snake, I'm just trying to figure out everything I can do to help her. Thanks!

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It's a stressful experience for you, and even more stressful for your snake. It can take a week or 2 before the meds even start to make a difference, so just be patient.

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Originally Posted by ratchet

Okay. My other snakes are fine (I have been doing my best of keeping her clear from my other snakes and I clean up after dealing with her before caring for the others), so I'm thinking it's not viral. I have been doing a Vicks and Eucalyptus sauna with her as well. Thanks for the link!

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Do not do the vicks/eucalyptus sauna. It's a bad idea for several reasons. If you need to nebulize, either ask your vet about nebulizing an appropriate antibiotic therapy of nebulize F10SC.

I'd love to know who has been going around recommending the eucalyptus/vicks treatment....I'm seeing a lot of people casually bringing up this treatment and it needs to stop.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Do not do the vicks/eucalyptus sauna. It's a bad idea for several reasons. If you need to nebulize, either ask your vet about nebulizing an appropriate antibiotic therapy of nebulize F10SC.

I'd love to know who has been going around recommending the eucalyptus/vicks treatment....I'm seeing a lot of people casually bringing up this treatment and it needs to stop.

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Actually, the vet said it wouldn't hurt... Why do you think it's so bad? There's posts online where keepers have said it's never failed them when it came to getting rid of an early onset of an infection. I know not everything online is something to go by, but I haven't come across anyone saying not to use it. I actually had another snake keeper tell me to do it when I first noticed the symptoms.

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Originally Posted by ratchet

Actually, the vet said it wouldn't hurt... Why do you think it's so bad? There's posts online where keepers have said it's never failed them when it came to getting rid of an early onset of an infection. I know not everything online is something to go by, but I haven't come across anyone saying not to use it. I actually had another snake keeper tell me to do it when I first noticed the symptoms.

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Well, then by all means, continue to administer the treatment. :gj:

Have you figured out and fixed what was wrong that caused the RI?

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Originally Posted by KMG

Have you figured out and fixed what was wrong that caused the RI?

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The vet did not take a culture.

We therefore do not know if it's viral, bacterial or otherwise.

He blindly administered an antibiotic and approved of a vick's eucalyptus oil inhalation regimen.

To the OP - what were the symptoms?

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Originally Posted by ratchet

Actually, the vet said it wouldn't hurt... Why do you think it's so bad?

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It took me about 30 seconds on Google to determine that neither Vicks nor eucalyptus oil will come anywhere near my collection. Also after looking at the MSDS for F10SC I would nebulize with that either, though people do claim that it works.

If you feel you MUST nebulize then use plain water.

Okay, I'm obviously going about this the hard way... bear with me here. :/

I had just recently cleaned her tank, it was dry and clean. Low humidity and cold temperature drops at night are what I believe were the causes of her getting sick, our windows in our bedroom were left open for a few nights and it got pretty chilly. She's no longer in that room anymore, temperatures are now above 80 always and the humidity is up now too.

Her symptoms were the click and wheeze breathing with the throat bulge and her nostrils looked plugged up as well. No mucus was bubbling or anything out of her mouth, the vet said she was still in the pretty early stages of an infection.

He had offered to do cultures, but he said he was confident that based off of the conditions I just described above, he said he'd feel comfortable prescribing the injections we are now giving her.. I guess that's a shame on me with not getting him to do the blood work? I'll be sure to not make that mistake again.. this was my first vet trip with a snake and the vet has over 35 years of reptile experience, so newbie mistake was to go off of his confidence...

Her nose has been clearing up, one nostril looks clean now. She goes from raising her head to laying it down, but she is still breathing quite heavy.

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Originally Posted by ratchet

Okay, I'm obviously going about this the hard way... bear with me here. :/

I had just recently cleaned her tank, it was dry and clean. Low humidity and cold temperature drops at night are what I believe were the causes of her getting sick, our windows in our bedroom were left open for a few nights and it got pretty chilly. She's no longer in that room anymore, temperatures are now above 80 always and the humidity is up now too.

Her symptoms were the click and wheeze breathing with the throat bulge and her nostrils looked plugged up as well. No mucus was bubbling or anything out of her mouth, the vet said she was still in the pretty early stages of an infection.

He had offered to do cultures, but he said he was confident that based off of the conditions I just described above, he said he'd feel comfortable prescribing the injections we are now giving her.. I guess that's a shame on me with not getting him to do the blood work? I'll be sure to not make that mistake again.. this was my first vet trip with a snake and the vet has over 35 years of reptile experience, so newbie mistake was to go off of his confidence...

Her nose has been clearing up, one nostril looks clean now. She goes from raising her head to laying it down, but she is still breathing quite heavy.

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Hi.

RIs can happen for a number of reasons and they are not always bacterial in nature. Even if they end up being bacterial, overuse and misuse of certain antibiotics has rendered many of them ineffectual.

It's not that blood work is required, it's more that the vet needs to culture any present mucous in order to determined (a) if the infection is bacterial and (b) what antibiotics it is susceptible to.

I've seen good reptile vets and bad reptile vets. I've seen reptile vets that are great with tortoises and awful with snakes. However, the two reptile vets I trust most would not prescribe an antibiotic until a culture was done. They may send me home with one until the culture has been processed, but they would be careful to select one that was broad spectrum and not widely used in order to insure effectiveness.

Now the euc oil/vicks thing is altogether another story. A forum member PM'd me the link to a couple of threads where this has been recommended. Several of the people who tried it did not even have confirmed RIs - clicking and wheezing noises by themselves in snakes can be normal in the absence of other symptoms.

Both vicks and euc oil can be respiratory irritants if dosed incorrectly. In a hobby where people routinely crap their pants over the very mention of pine being used as substrate, I am amazed that this practice would find any footing in the community.

Here's the deal - the euc/vicks treatment relies on steam as a delivery vehicle. Nebulized water and steam are excellent on their own as aids in relieving congestion. So the addition of a potential irritant seems silly.

As to the addition of F10sc to a nebulizer - it has actually gained traction in real veterinary circles. F10 is antibacterial, anti-fungal and a virucide. The dilution instruction in a proper nebulizer limit it to exposure levels routinely seen during cage maintenance. It was recommended to me by two vets and I have used it to great effect.

However, I apply if in situ - without removing the animal to a separate enclosure...which is why I have even more issues with the vics/euc oil treatment.

An essential aspect to treating illness in reptiles is to minimize stress. Any remedy that involves repeatedly removing the animal, handling the animal or stressing the animal is a no no (with the exception of administering required and prescribed medicine).

Bottom line:

You are at a point where to may not see improvement for a couple more treatments with the antibiotic anyway. If the animal is not showing any further improvement over the next 5 to 7 days, ask the vet for a culture.

Also, my suggestion would be to cease all applications of respiratory irritants. If you want to nebulize something, nebulize distilled water directly into the enclosure or hide for 20 min a day. The nebulized water itself may aid in loosening mucous or congestion.

If you'd like to try the F10, well I have a thread on here somewhere where I discussed how I use it and I believe Robert (Pit on the Prowl) has also outlined his success in utilizing it.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

You are at a point where to may not see improvement for a couple more treatments with the antibiotic anyway. If the animal is not showing any further improvement over the next 5 to 7 days, ask the vet for a culture.

Also, my suggestion would be to cease all applications of respiratory irritants. If you want to nebulize something, nebulize distilled water directly into the enclosure or hide for 20 min a day. The nebulized water itself may aid in loosening mucous or congestion.

If you'd like to try the F10, well I have a thread on here somewhere where I discussed how I use it and I believe Robert (Pit on the Prowl) has also outlined his success in utilizing it.

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Thanks a lot for clearing that all up!! It's been pretty up and down; relief from this person telling me one thing, but then I stress again when I hear something else from a different person, haha... but I haven't done the Vicks and Eucalyptus treatment for about two days now and I'll be sure to leave that to rest. The injections have been stressful enough for the both of us, I can't wait till that's over and done with. But I can't imagine having to go through it all again because it was the wrong medication... I guess it's a wait and see game now.

I really appreciate the explication and advice. Still so much to learn, that's for sure! Fingers crossed this clears up without too much more stress.

My vet also recommended the Vic's and eucalyptus treatment for my snake with a RI.

Vicks and Eucalyptus oil is hardly a irritate to anything other then mucus and respiratory infections, but you would know that because your a vet.... Or a doctor or something like that.


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Originally Posted by LestertheLesser

My vet also recommended the Vic's and eucalyptus treatment for my snake with a RI.

Vicks and Eucalyptus oil is hardly a irritate to anything other then mucus and respiratory infections, but you would know that because your a vet.... Or a doctor or something like that.


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Read this and thank me later from saving you from a stupid practice - and find a new vet while you are at it:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19136404

Bottom line, research - no forum bull crap - on ANIMALS shows that:

Vick's Vapor Rub stimulates mucous secretion in test animals. The results of the linked study conclusively showed that Vick's Vapor Rub creates the same inflammatory respiratory reaction that you'd see with an exposure to inhalant irritants. This could lead to mucus obstruction of small airways and increased congestion.

What a brilliant idea - treat a damn RI by irritating the respiratory system and increasing mucous production.:gj:

In other words, it does the opposite of what you think it does.

As for eucalyptus oil - inhaling has been linked to vocal cord irritation. Plus, every hippie-dippie site that deals in aromatherapy offers the same warning:

"Topical use or inhalation of eucalyptus oil at low concentrations may be safe, although significant and potentially lethal toxicity has been consistently reported with oral use and may occur with inhalation use as well. All routes of administration should be avoided in children.

Everything you typed did nothing for me. I will follow my vets instructions. After all your just reading someone else's abstract and applying it to your own theories. People will alway have their own opinion, since my vet has theirs I will follow it.

Why tell someone to go against their vet, when you yourself are not a vet, and probably (in assuming so bear with me) have no medical background

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Originally Posted by LestertheLesser

Everything you typed did nothing for me. I will follow my vets instructions. After all your just reading someone else's abstract and applying it to your own theories. People will alway have their own opinion, since my vet has theirs I will follow it.

Why tell someone to go against their vet, when you yourself are not a vet, and probably (in assuming so bear with me) have no medical background

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Yeah, I can't do a darn thing about your reading comprehension skills.

Let me try to help you out:

A real research scientist shows in a study that Vapor Rub makes little furry animals get sicker by plugging their noses with snot. It also makes small kids sick.

Sites that sell eucalyptus oil caution inhalation may result in death.

Those aren't aren't my theories. That's a peer-reviewed study and a warning used word for word on virtually every site that sells eucalyptus oil.

No lester, I ain't no vet...nor did I ever claim to be one... but I'm also not an angry dude who apparently can't draw bone simple conclusions either. People who have been on this site for more than one day can attest that there is no one on this board who recommends regular exams with qualified reptile vets...nor shares their experiences with the same.... than I.

To answer your question, I did read the article, the entire article. And like a science, it's can all be tested and re tested and different results found. As far as I know direct testing on snakes has never been done by anybody, so your claims are just that, your claims. In fact most people say they see good results to no results. As far as I have found no one has had any negative effects eith their snakes using the method. So in all reality your "scientific" claims are far from being just that. Rather your idea in your head. That has none of your own proof, just articles by people you more than likely do not know. I'm not saying your wrong for your idea more so that your telling people to go against what their vet says, multiple people's vets that are all telling them the same thing.

I have looked up both ingredients and have seen the warnings and all of that, but I'd be willing to bet you still pop a pill to help your sickness even though it's side effects are ten times worse then what the pill is treating. You seem very intelligable about snakes so I will be following your posts!


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Originally Posted by LestertheLesser

To answer your question, I did read the article, the entire article. And like a science, it's can all be tested and re tested and different results found. As far as I know direct testing on snakes has never been done by anybody, so your claims are just that, your claims. In fact most people say they see good results to no results. As far as I have found no one has had any negative effects eith their snakes using the method. So in all reality your "scientific" claims are far from being just that. Rather your idea in your head. That has none of your own proof, just articles by people you more than likely do not know. I'm not saying your wrong for your idea more so that your telling people to go against what their vet says, multiple people's vets that are all telling them the same thing.

I have looked up both ingredients and have seen the warnings and all of that, but I'd be willing to bet you still pop a pill to help your sickness even though it's side effects are ten times worse then what the pill is treating. You seem very intelligable about snakes so I will be following your posts!


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Lester, one of the things some of us have found over the years is that there are a lot of reptile vets out there. Some are excellent, some are good and some are just plain bad. We've watched some really good antibiotics be rendered ineffective because vets don't culture infections....nor do they consider that RIs can have several causes - not all bacterial. We constantly see people come here for help when vets have screwed them out of hundreds of dollars and cured nothing.

We've also watched them both over and under emphasize IBD, and ignore more prevalent diseases (that's a whole separate issue).

And we watch them give out bad advice.

The Vapor rub thing was linked to a lot of controversy several years ago. The tried and true remedy that even my parents slathered on my chest when I was a kid was found to be causing kids to get really sick. When the studies came out, the studies were attacked by physicians paid for by Proctor and Gamble. In the end, the studies were upheld because researchers proved the stuff could really cause a worsening of respiratory conditions.

Here's the thing Lester, if something has the potential to cause problems - why even risk it? If a vet is doing their job, and thinks that inhalation therapy may be beneficial, their are other ways to do it that carry none of the potential risks.

There have been some excellent results from the nebulization of F10sc in proper dilutions. The beauty of F10 is that it's antibacterial and anti-viral. Even if the vet prescribes antibiotics without a culture, F10 can deal with the possibility of a resistant bacteria or a virus.

I read the posts and the how to for the Vapor Rub/Euc oil treatments and the first thing that struck me was that many of the animals being treated were never diagnosed by a vet as having a bacterial RI. Snakes make a lot of noises - they can click, wheeze and huff when stressed and we have a lot fo people who pop in here frantic that something is wrong with their animal, when nothing really is.

In the absence of symptoms such as congestion, bubbling, real labored breathing, etc. I'm not convinced that ANY treatment does anything. Unless a vet properly diagnoses an RI, how do we know that some of these snakes were even sick? Or whether it was bacterial, virus or even fungal?

Anyway, we've collectively beat this horse to death. My advice is to be cautious and always question the advice you're given - that applies to a vet as well as anyone on a forum....and yes, that includes me. If a vet does something that doesn't add up, call him/her on it, and ask the members here who may live in your area for alternative recommendations.

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Originally Posted by LestertheLesser

To answer your question, I did read the article, the entire article. And like a science, it's can all be tested and re tested and different results found. As far as I know direct testing on snakes has never been done by anybody, so your claims are just that, your claims. In fact most people say they see good results to no results. As far as I have found no one has had any negative effects eith their snakes using the method. So in all reality your "scientific" claims are far from being just that. Rather your idea in your head. That has none of your own proof, just articles by people you more than likely do not know. I'm not saying your wrong for your idea more so that your telling people to go against what their vet says, multiple people's vets that are all telling them the same thing.

I have looked up both ingredients and have seen the warnings and all of that, but I'd be willing to bet you still pop a pill to help your sickness even though it's side effects are ten times worse then what the pill is treating. You seem very intelligable about snakes so I will be following your posts!


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First off, as someone who has had to choose between life-altering side effects and a potentially life-threatening illness: No, not all people pop pills to fix a problem and ignore the side effects.

Secondly: scientific studies are PEER REVIEWED. This means that a panel of experts in whatever field the paper is in evaluate it and the claims it makes for consistency, methodology, and the ability to REPRODUCE the results. This is key; it's the reason that famous study linking autism to the MMR vaccine was debunked and ended in a lawsuit and the effective blacklisting of the author. When someone publishes something that others cannot reproduce, it gets dragged out into the light. And that case was an instance of actual fraud and data falsification; so it was a deliberate attempt to fool the peer reviewers.
Any study that makes claims like that will have gone through intense scrutiny. Unless you have reason to believe the authors intentionally falsified data, you have no logical basis for claiming that paper doesn't show a concrete correlation between the vapor and increased respiratory symptoms.

Finally: Why do people automatically trust everything every a vet says? I realize that they are typically qualified in their field, but that doesn't make them infallible experts on every single reptile species. If your doctor told you to do something with serious side-effects and your friend said "Hey, I had the same problem and my doctor prescribed me something different" I bet you'd try another doctor for a second opinion. I don't understand why people don't have the same mentality when they're told their vet is advising something totally off the wall.

A year or two ago I took one of my snakes to the vet who opened the first exotic-specific vet office in the nation to cater to the public (and not zoos) and one of the founders of the first reptile-specific veterinary program in the country. So if anyone is deserving of blind trust, this person is. They told me it was a vitamin deficiency due to diet and wanted to do a B12 shot. I knew this was wrong (because I know what I'm feeding them), so I refused and asked them to do a fecal; the vet got ticked, but turns out she had parasites, not a vitamin deficiency.
I still go to that vet, because on the whole they are very good, but that's just one example of even the most qualified vet being wrong about something.

EDIT: I know someone who tried to treat an actual serious RI with the vabor rub/eucalyptus treatment and refused to go to a vet. The snake died.