First clutch....Bitter sweet

I was so thrilled to announce that my very first clutch of eggs has arrived! My Mojave girl laid a clutch of 6 eggs and one slug a few days ago, exactly 50 days after ovulating. I was very happy........until I CANDLED THEM! Out of 6 perfect eggs, 3 appear to be completely infertile, 2 have veins on only 1/3 of the egg, and only one has strong veins throughout. I am SO disappointed! I separated the three that have veins from the others as they weren't stuck together and put them in the incubator using the substrate-less method @ a steady 89 degrees. I am 100% sure that the other three are no good, but I put them in too just to gain the experience of knowing what it looks like when eggs go bad. I am not very optimistic about the two with weak veins....but we'll see. I couldn't believe that so many eggs could look perfect and be no good. Any ideas what may have caused this to happen????

Sire- 900 grams
http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...ps214f130d.png

Momma-2700 grams
http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...psad1e85d7.png

Locks- 6 observed
http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9mtdmadt.png

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...psbcurwx1t.png

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...pstpuakcrk.png

Ovi
http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...psx59vg9jz.jpg

Eggs
http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...psxpqpwpjh.png

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...psocqfa9aa.png

yep,

Incubate anything that isn't obviously a slug. :gj:

Those look like good eggs to me and I wouldn't be surprised if the veins develop just fine after a week. Any that aren't fertile should start decomposing and be easier to spot in that time as well.

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Originally Posted by dr del

yep,

Incubate anything that isn't obviously a slug. :gj:

Those look like good eggs to me and I wouldn't be surprised if the veins develop just fine after a week. Any that aren't fertile should start decomposing and be easier to spot in that time as well.

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Yes, exactly this. Nice looking clutch and may the odds gods have been generous :gj:

So, one of the weak veined eggs has gone bad and the other looks to be getting stronger veins. The three that had no veins...still have no veins, but have not started to rot yet. So as of now I have two eggs out of a 6 egg clutch that show promise. I discarded the rotting egg, but I cut it open to see what was inside first. The egg was definitely fertile at one point because there was a tiny pink worm looking embryo with tiny black eye specks inside. Besides the embryo, the rest of the contents looked like cottage cheese and smelled AWFUL! I am still disappointed with this clutch, but I know it could have been worse. Hope my second clutch of the season works out a little better.

When you say substrate-less, do you just put the eggs on a light diffuser with water underneath?

I put either vermiculite or perlite under the grating - prevents sloshing and splashing when moving the container. ;)

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Originally Posted by dr del

I put either vermiculite or perlite under the grating - prevents sloshing and splashing when moving the container. ;)

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This. Clean aquarium gravel and new, cleaned synthetic sponges also work.

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Originally Posted by dr del

I put either vermiculite or perlite under the grating - prevents sloshing and splashing when moving the container. ;)

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Yep! This ^

Officially down to 2 eggs now. The three with no veins finally started to mold and collapse. I cut them open and they were all milky goo, no embryo. Surprisingly, they didn't smell nearly as bad as the fertile egg that went bad.

So I lost another egg about 30 days in to incubation. When I cut it open it had deformed twins in it. I thought that the one egg I had left would be a normal due to the horrible luck I was having with this clutch, but I had hopes that it would be a Pastave, either way I just hoped it would be a healthy hatchling. So it is now day 56 and I opened my incubator to this! Someone want to give me their input on what the hell is going on?! I have my guesses, but I want to hear what you think. Either way, I'm happy!!!

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...psdcumge31.png

Was this the females first year breeding?

Well, looks like a BEL to me! You definitely need that after all you been through. Congrats sir! :gj:

Is that a Black eyed lucy
or ivory?

:O:O That's impossible!!

thats like a gift for you after all this that happened to you
congrats

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Originally Posted by Albert Clark

Well, looks like a BEL to me! You definitely need that after all you been through. Congrats sir! :gj:

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Is it? I dont see blue eyes

No. She was bred to a Mystic last year, but this snake doesn't appear to be a Mystic Potion. The hatchling is extra white with no visible pattern. I'll get some better pics when he/she comes out of the egg.

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Originally Posted by joelouis821

No. She was bred to a Mystic last year, but this snake doesn't appear to be a Mystic Potion. The hatchling is extra white with no visible pattern. I'll get some better pics when he/she comes out of the egg.

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Sorry, this was in response to the question regarding it being her first year breading.

Blue eyed or black eyed doesn't really matter. Actually you cant see 90% of the body inside the egg. :D

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Originally Posted by flako0aguiilar

is that a black eyed lucy
or ivory?

:o:o that's impossible!!

Thats like a gift for you after all this that happened to you
congrats

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black eyed or blue eyed doesn't matter. 90% of the body is hidden in the egg.

Well whatever it is i really like it is a gorgeous snake

Well I'm really interested to see what comes out.

Congrats! Then it looks like this hatchling may be a product of retained sperm from last year. Wow! :gj: Maybe?

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5qvy3mxb.png

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...psskt1khbh.png

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...psjvc7esfd.png

WOW so gorgeous!!

Any chance the adults both have fire floating around in there somewhere?

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Originally Posted by Asherah

Any chance the adults both have fire floating around in there somewhere?

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I guess anything is possible, but I do not believe so.

Pairing was Pastel male to Mojave female. The easiest answer is that the female retained sperm from last years Mystic pairing, but this doesn't appear to be a Mystic Potion. I have always felt that the Pastel male had something "extra" going on. Still unsure exactly what happened here. If this hatching is a Black Eyed Lucy... I think my head might explode

That male is super bright. Could be something else going on there... Not sure what though. Either way, congrats on a beautiful hatchling! You definitely deserved some good luck after losing so many eggs.

One thought - if it was retained sperm, could that account for the high number of lost eggs? Does retained sperm "deteriorate" over time?

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Originally Posted by KitaCat

That male is super bright. Could be something else going on there... Not sure what though. Either way, congrats on a beautiful hatchling! You definitely deserved some good luck after losing so many eggs.

One thought - if it was retained sperm, could that account for the high number of lost eggs? Does retained sperm "deteriorate" over time?

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Yes IMO that would contribute to the high infertility rate. But that still leaves the question as to why this isn't a Mystic Potion. I did acquire this female as a proven breeder. So I guess its possible that it could have retained sperm from two years ago. In that case, the pairings would be unknown to me. I do have another female ( spinner) gravid with 8 eggs from the Pastel male. She was a virgin so that clutch may answer some questions.

It is a very bright male. The hatchling to me looks like it has dark eyes and some yellow patches, but I have zero personal experience with fires. It certainly doesn't look like a mystic potion. You'll have to post updates of the next clutch.

Could your pastel be a pastel lesser?

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Wow congrats! Beautiful hatchling!

Sent from my VS880 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Izzys Keeper

Could your pastel be a pastel lesser?

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That is a good point! This is turning out to be a real "who's your daddy" saga! I still think the" amphogenia retardata "has something to do with the making of this hatchling. If not , it's a good differential. :gj: Nice job Joe!

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Originally Posted by Izzys Keeper

Could your pastel be a pastel lesser?

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To me he doesn't look anything like a Lesser.

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...ps57c324c7.png

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06...dbfb45c2e7.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06...8b814fe530.jpg

These are from WOB. not saying he looks exactly like one. Just trying to help make sense of things

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Originally Posted by Izzys Keeper

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06...dbfb45c2e7.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06...8b814fe530.jpg

These are from WOB. not saying he looks exactly like one. Just trying to help make sense of things

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Thanks. I believe if the male has a BEL complex 2nd gene it is something more subtle, like Mocha or Russo. Lessers are usually pretty easy to spot IMO. I am leaning toward this being a case of retained sperm until proven otherwise. I will be keeping this hatchling, so it may take a few years but i will figure this all out.....eventually :)

It's unfortunate that you lost all but this guy, but dang it turned into a pretty neat little mystery. Keep us updated on the other clutch and post progress pictures on this lil one!

I am stumped! Here are a few post shed pics. As you can see, there is a yellow dorsal stripe and the eyes are very dark with a black Iris. One interesting thing that is hard to pick up with my crappy camera is that the lower half of the snake is creamy white, but the upper half has a purple hue. It may be a while before I figure this out for sure......because it's a SHE!

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...pszcjzi2md.png

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...psziw69olh.png

Seeing these pictures I think I'm going to have to toss my vote for yellowbelly. It would account for dad still being so bright and mom's elongated alien heads. The next 3 ish years are going to be the longest of your life!

Looks like yellowbellies. That appears like an ivory. That's what I thought when I saw the first pic. Looked like it had somewhat of a head pattern. But it was so light it was hard to tell. As she sheds. The color/pattern will just get more definite. Congrats on the one beauty!


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Originally Posted by Asherah

Seeing these pictures I think I'm going to have to toss my vote for yellowbelly. It would account for dad still being so bright and mom's elongated alien heads. The next 3 ish years are going to be the longest of your life!

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This is why I love this forum! I was so caught up with the BEL complex with the Mom being a Mojave, that I never even considered this possibility. If this little one is indeed an Ivory that would be a crazy and unexpected result as neither the Sire or the Dam were sold to me as anything more than a Pastel and a Mojave. Then again, this hatchling has created quite a bit of head scratching already. Thank you all for your help and opinions trying to figure this out! After the latest replies I am more confused then before....lol. But now I have noticed another small detail.....RED PUPILS!

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...pstaemhdut.png

http://i1381.photobucket.com/albums/...pscjcrvj9t.png

So now the question is....IF she is indeed an Ivory......Is she just an Ivory, or a Pastel Ivory, or a Mojave Ivory, or a Pastave Ivory LOL!

For comparison sake I snatched up my ivory and took him outside for a few quick pictures. He's about 700g and also has a possible second gene floating around though nothing your working with. Excuse a lady for the dirty fingernails. It's my first day off in more months than I wanna count and I have done nothing but lady in bed, play skyrim and eat cookies... which are apparently still sorta hanging around. Lol
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07...cba9d6cba3.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07...6fcb787ec8.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07...ed4a5fd045.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07...f6a1eef2a1.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07...cfbd9d2e35.jpg

Whatever yours turns out to be she's for sure a pretty thing! Breed the parents again next year and maybe you'll have some faster answers.

So after all the input from this forum, speaking to the breeders who produced the Mojave mother and the Pastel male I paired her with, and getting quite a bit of input from experts in the hobby, I have come to a tentative conclusion. I believe that the Male Pastel I paired with the Mojave is carrying a second gene in the Blue eyed Lucy complex. I believe the hatchling is carrying all three genes (pastel, mojave, ??) I do not believe that the hatchling in an Ivory or a Black eyed Lucy. Nor do I believe that this is a case of retained sperm based on input from the breeder I obtained the Mojave female from. Time will tell what genes this hatchling is carrying, but I am anticipating a bit of clarity from the second clutch this male fathered. Maybe it's a known BEL gene, maybe something new. For those interested, I will continue to post pics of the hatchling as it grows and keep you updated on the expected 2nd clutch.