first python (childrens).. suggestions possibly needed

just picked him up at the Expo..
he's a 6 month old children's python..
the wife was not impressed but I'm hoping since he's a small breed she will warm up to him..
I did a lot of research on them before purchasing so I was super excited to actually find one for sale.. never seen them locally at the pet store and was shocked not many of the employees actually knew what they were..


http://i.imgur.com/fG1uZJQ.jpg


I had some trouble getting him to eat his first fuzzy because I thought ur suppose to feed them out of the tank and he was really not interested in it.. i waited until night when he was moving around his tank than dropped it in, he snatched it up an ate it no prob so I'm excited about that.. I'm giving him his 2 days then I'll handle him some more tomorrow as I want him to be a tame guy..


Tub is a bit big but they didn't really have an in between size at Walmart. . Was either too small or too big and I really liked the lid locking system on this one
http://i.imgur.com/H0rPQ2L.jpg


Inside the tank.. I'm not sure if my hygrometer is suppose to go in the tank either but I did tape the probe in the corner of the hotter side as u may be able to see in the pic below..
http://i.imgur.com/B6qnnd4.jpg
*i know the Hides should be the same size but the guy at the Expo said i needed Larges but i knew i could fit 2 larges in the tub so i grabbed one Large and a medium, as u see they just fit..


Tank
http://i.imgur.com/buOvGKN.jpg


i do have one concern however.. one of you with a keen eye will notice the tank temp is only 75F.. i've got the UTH on a thermostat set for 32.5C (90.5-91) cuz i couldn't figure out how to switch it to F but it doesn't seem heat the entire tank.. my room temp is 75F.. i was thinking of an infrared heat bulbs but because the tank and lid are plastic i don't really have a way to set that up..
humidity however is perfect with the little water dish.. should i get him a bigger water dish, if i can even fit one?


I did want to get some suggestions on the tank set up however and make sure everything is OK as this is my first python..
I've got a 7 yr old bearded dragon who took a bit of money and time to get his tank right so I wanna do this right the first time..

How big are the hides compared to the python? Those look huge.

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Originally Posted by Penultimate

How big are the hides compared to the python? Those look huge.

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the medium sees to fit him perfectly.. the large hide is on the hot side so he's always in there and takes up a little less than half of the hide.. usually hides in one of the corners..
i still wanna check the ground below the hide since the UTH is under it, make sure it's getting enough heat through as the UTH is wrapped with foil tape as suggested around the internet so the tub doesn't melt and so i can re-use the UTH

Nice little snake you got there.

Antaresia in general warm up with age, not handling. They can be defensively nippy as babies and lose that as they gain some size and settle in.

75 is okay for an ambient but a little higher would not hurt. May be hard to raise the ambient in that small container without throwing some other parameters off....there are some ways you can bump the ambient up a few degrees...PM me for more details if interested.

Childreni like to climb and are an animal that - while capable of existing in a tub - really show much more of the natural behavior in an environment where they can stretch their legs (in a manner of speaking). Unlike ball pythons, once acclimated they can show a tendency to spend less and less time in their hides.

Your gonna want to move that probe outside the tub .... Tape it between the uth and bottom of the tub .... You never want to use tape inside of a snake enclosure .... Everything else looks great and nice looking lil snake as well :gj:

I saw that you posted in the Childrens Python Thread as well. Look through the 15 pages to see the evolution of some of the cages http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ic-post/page15 . Like Skip said they warm up with age, not so much on the handling side. They are very active and love to climb, so I too would move away from the tub and try to produce a naturalistic environment for him. I have a water dish in my cage that is big enough for him to soak in. Everytime I put fresh water in it he is over drinking. My guy is a just shy of 3ft and he is in a 36inx18inx16in cage and he uses every inch of it so much that I feel like he needs bigger. My house ambients are around 75 as well and the only heating I have for his cage is a UTH. I actually have keep my hot spot warmer in the high 90s to 100F range.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

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Childreni like to climb and are an animal that - while capable of existing in a tub - really show much more of the natural behavior in an environment where they can stretch their legs (in a manner of speaking). Unlike ball pythons, once acclimated they can show a tendency to spend less and less time in their hides.

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i did originally have him in a 20gal tub i borrowed from my brother than i seen everyone used the tubs so i grabbed one cuz they said pythons don't really climb but it was hard to find info on Childreni pythons so i was just grabbing general python info

i'll shoot you a PM in regards to bumping up the temp a bit too

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Originally Posted by T_Sauer

Your gonna want to move that probe outside the tub .... Tape it between the uth and bottom of the tub .... You never want to use tape inside of a snake enclosure .... Everything else looks great and nice looking lil snake as well :gj:

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that probe is for the hygrometer.. i already have the thermostat probe between the tub and UTH..

thanks for the feedback.. i want to get the set up right so i can keep him a long time, he's great and hasn't bitten once so i think im on the right track haha

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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

I saw that you posted in the Childrens Python Thread as well. Look through the 15 pages to see the evolution of some of the cages http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ic-post/page15 . Like Skip said they warm up with age, not so much on the handling side. They are very active and love to climb, so I too would move away from the tub and try to produce a naturalistic environment for him. I have a water dish in my cage that is big enough for him to soak in. Everytime I put fresh water in it he is over drinking. My guy is a just shy of 3ft and he is in a 36inx18inx16in cage and he uses every inch of it so much that I feel like he needs bigger. My house ambients are around 75 as well and the only heating I have for his cage is a UTH. I actually have keep my hot spot warmer in the high 90s to 100F range.

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i'll start checking more pages on that thread.. did you build a custom tank than??
i just gave my brother his 20gal tank and bragged up my tub setting so i didn't really wanna beg to use his tank again plus i've always had a hard time keeping proper heat temps in glass tanks with my beardies in the past.. not sure if it's our room set up let's a lot of air through or what..
i'm very short on funds as well as the wife has cut me off on spending since i secretly bought the snake and she wasn't a fan haha

as for climbing i've got the one stick but he doesn't seem very interested in it.. he usually just goes on or behind his hide when he's out.. the tub is fairly tall i could figure out something for climbing tho, any suggestions? ill check around google for some idea's as well

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Originally Posted by Clay

i'll start checking more pages on that thread.. did you build a custom tank than??
i just gave my brother his 20gal tank and bragged up my tub setting so i didn't really wanna beg to use his tank again plus i've always had a hard time keeping proper heat temps in glass tanks with my beardies in the past.. not sure if it's our room set up let's a lot of air through or what..
i'm very short on funds as well as the wife has cut me off on spending since i secretly bought the snake and she wasn't a fan haha

as for climbing i've got the one stick but he doesn't seem very interested in it.. he usually just goes on or behind his hide when he's out.. the tub is fairly tall i could figure out something for climbing tho, any suggestions? ill check around google for some idea's as well

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I haven't built a custom cage for him yet, he is still in a glass tank for the time being as I am focusing on finishing my tegu and Blueys' cages. That being said he will probably end up in a 4x2x2 cage down the road. On the last few pics of that thread you will see my current cage as it sits today with plenty of rocks, wood pieces, branches, dirt substrate and moss. I cover the top of the cage with a towel over the screen for now and provide a LED light for the day/night cycle. I also covered the 3 sides of his enclosure so that he couldn't see out of it. You need to give your lil guy some time, they are so tiny, I'd say once you get the enclosure setup right let him settle for a month and you will see him out exploring. IMO those hides are way too big. Mine has never used a hide like that. I put pieces of cork flat in the cage and he wedged himself in there when he wants to hide. (I am not saying my setup is perfect, and there are many ways to care for each snake) but I have seen positive changes in his behavior and activity when providing him with the setup I have now. Any questions feel free to ask.

I will chime in with some advice that seems to be the opposite of what everyone else is recommending!

I'm not an advocate of "natural" looking enclosures. More stuff in the enclosure means more stuff to sanitize. Typically naturalistic enclosures don't get cleaned as often or as thoroughly has they should, either.

My yearling Antaresia are currently in V-18 tubs, with small hide, paper towel tube, and water bowl. Even my "big" 300 gram female children's is not even in a 28qt/sub adult tub yet. I would also advise finding tubs with a tighter seal. Your little noodle is tiny and will very easily make his way out of that tub once he figures out how to reach the top.

Just my :2cent:, everyone will have their own opinon of what works best for them. I have found that my guys do very well in their current set ups, never refuse meal, and are never defensive, even at 15-30 grams in weight.

i'm thinking of taking the Large hide out and putting the medium on the hot side instead.. should help free up a lot of room..
i do have a Large water dish i could use instead too, i just didn't have room..
also looking to switch out the toilet paper roll for a paper towel roll when it becomes available haha
then it sounds like all i'll have to do is figure out something for climbing, the tub fairly tall so i should be OK height wise..
i figured the little guy would probably find away out of the tub as the middle seems like he could be strong enough to wiggle the lid up and get between it to escape so i put a 2X4 board with a cement block shelf decoration on it to hold the lid down in the middle.. the rest of it is secure..
it's been 2 days since he's ate so i'm going to take him out today and check the bottom of the tank and make sure he's getting good belly heat as i have the UTH foil wrapped since i didn't want to chance any melting plus now the UTH is reusable

maybe once i take the Large hide out i'll snap another pic to show how much more space i have and i can get some suggestions for adding the larger water dish (or not) as well as figure out a climbing set up for him

i do really wanna keep the tub set up as i don't have a way of getting another glass tank nor do i really wanna do that set up as i'll have to go buy another heat bulb as well and the wife as cut me off at the moment so i'm on a budget

thanks for all the feedback so far

just a little update.. i removed the large hide checked the bottom of the tub (from inside) to see how the belly heat would be and it's barely anything?? i did have newspaper lining the bottom under the aspen chips in fear of the UTH getting to hot and burning him so i have removed that.. could it be the foil tape not letting the heat through?? that would be my guess why the tank temp is so low as well.. i have a thermostat hooked up to the UTH but i always thought u still had to foil tape it still??

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Originally Posted by Clay

just a little update.. i removed the large hide checked the bottom of the tub (from inside) to see how the belly heat would be and it's barely anything?? i did have newspaper lining the bottom under the aspen chips in fear of the UTH getting to hot and burning him so i have removed that.. could it be the foil tape not letting the heat through?? that would be my guess why the tank temp is so low as well.. i have a thermostat hooked up to the UTH but i always thought u still had to foil tape it still??

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The foil tape is to hold the mat to the tank. Are you using it as a barrier between the mat and the tub?

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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

The foil tape is to hold the mat to the tank. Are you using it as a barrier between the mat and the tub?

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yes i am lol.. i thought that's what you did to keep it from melting the tub incase the thermostat failed
i bought duct tape to hold it to the tub

now i'm not sure if i can remove it or not:(

just read 2 threads from here..

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...36-Foil-on-uth

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...-the-heat-tape

looks like im going to try to get the tape off ASAP hopefully without wrecking the UTH

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Originally Posted by Clay

yes i am lol.. i thought that's what you did to keep it from melting the tub incase the thermostat failed
i bought duct tape to hold it to the tub

now i'm not sure if i can remove it or not:(

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The aluminum tape should peel off pretty easy. You are going to have to take everything out and make sure you get all the sticky off. before you put it back down. Then use the aluminum tape to tape the mat around the edges to the bin. When you flip it back over put some sort of spacer on the 4 corners of the tub so some air gets in under the mat. Some mats come with little rubber feet, but you can use anything that is around the same thickness, quarters, etc.

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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

The aluminum tape should peel off pretty easy. You are going to have to take everything out and make sure you get all the sticky off. before you put it back down. Then use the aluminum tape to tape the mat around the edges to the bin. When you flip it back over put some sort of spacer on the 4 corners of the tub so some air gets in under the mat. Some mats come with little rubber feet, but you can use anything that is around the same thickness, quarters, etc.

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ur right the foil tape is coming off easy but the UTH is a zoomed UTH so it has the sticky side already and is still pretty sticky at this point.. i did have little feet on the bottom but took them off cuz i thought the tub wasn't sitting flat so the UTH was sitting nicely on the bottom of the tub :rolleyes:
i'll have to see if i can reuse those too
not sure how to get the sticky crap off the UTH tho?

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Originally Posted by Clay

ur right the foil tape is coming off easy but the UTH is a zoomed UTH so it has the sticky side already and is still pretty sticky at this point.. i did have little feet on the bottom but took them off cuz i thought the tub wasn't sitting flat so the UTH was sitting nicely on the bottom of the tub :rolleyes:
i'll have to see if i can reuse those too
not sure how to get the sticky crap off the UTH tho?

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To be honest, I have never had luck re-using a zoo med mat. I know some have been able to peel it very carefully then move it to another enclosure and re-use the adhesive on the mat in conjunction with the aluminum tape. Give it a try, I always ended up damaging mine, which is why I don't use them anymore.

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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

To be honest, I have never had luck re-using a zoo med mat. I know some have been able to peel it very carefully then move it to another enclosure and re-use the adhesive on the mat in conjunction with the aluminum tape. Give it a try, I always ended up damaging mine, which is why I don't use them anymore.

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ya i will just go flexwatt next time and not worry about reusing it.. hopefully the t-stat will keep it from melting the tank than..
i couldn't save the rubber feet i had so i'll have to grab another pack later..

thanks for the advice.. totally makes sense now that the tub was not heating up.. going to put the UTH on now and use the foil tape to tape it to the tub this time.. should i bother with the newspaper below the aspen.. don't wanna restrict any heat but don't want the little guy to burn his self either

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Originally Posted by Clay

ya i will just go flexwatt next time and not worry about reusing it.. hopefully the t-stat will keep it from melting the tank than..
i couldn't save the rubber feet i had so i'll have to grab another pack later..

thanks for the advice.. totally makes sense now that the tub was not heating up.. going to put the UTH on now and use the foil tape to tape it to the tub this time.. should i bother with the newspaper below the aspen.. don't wanna restrict any heat but don't want the little guy to burn his self either

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No need to buy the rubber feet, just throw a quarter under each corner should be enough of a gap. I wouldn't use the newspaper personally. If you are using a TSTAT and it is controlling the temp and you have verified it, then you should be good to go. The newspaper is just another barrier absorbing heat.

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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

No need to buy the rubber feet, just throw a quarter under each corner should be enough of a gap. I wouldn't use the newspaper personally. If you are using a TSTAT and it is controlling the temp and you have verified it, then you should be good to go. The newspaper is just another barrier absorbing heat.

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got it all set now.. i let the TSTAT heat up to 32.5C (90.5F) and check the inside of the tub and the heat still wasn't that great so i turned the TSTAT to 33.5C (1degree more) and it feels warm but i don't know if it's going to be good enough still but im not too sure as this is my first snake.. i don't have the news paper in either.. im just setting the tank up now than i'll take a pic

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clay

got it all set now.. i let the TSTAT heat up to 32.5C (90.5F) and check the inside of the tub and the heat still wasn't that great so i turned the TSTAT to 33.5C (1degree more) and it feels warm but i don't know if it's going to be good enough still but im not too sure as this is my first snake.. i don't have the news paper in either.. im just setting the tank up now than i'll take a pic

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How are you verifying the surface temp over the hot spot inside the tank? If it is truly at 90.5F then you are on the right track, but when you say it "feels" warm it makes me have to ask. Like I said I keep my hot spot much warmer than that to be honest, not saying you have to or should since he is so little, but warmer has worked for me personally.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

How are you verifying the surface temp over the hot spot inside the tank? If it is truly at 90.5F then you are on the right track, but when you say it "feels" warm it makes me have to ask. Like I said I keep my hot spot much warmer than that to be honest, not saying you have to or should since he is so little, but warmer has worked for me personally.

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i cleared the aspen away and put my hand to where the UTH is and it feels a little warm i guess

here's a pic of the tub with a large water dish and medium hide.. 2nd hide removed.. i could put the small water dish back in if you guys think this one is too big (it was being used for kale veggies for my beardy)

http://i.imgur.com/kHEH2oh.jpg

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Originally Posted by Clay

i cleared the aspen away and put my hand to where the UTH is and it feels a little warm i guess

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That is not a very accurate way to measure at all. Your hand is not delicate enough to feel the difference between a few degrees. You need to get your hands on an IR thermometer or at the very least a digital thermometer with a probe to measure the actual temp. Odds are that if your TSTAT is regulating to 90ish degrees then you will have a slight heat loss through the plastic, not much, but slight. However I wouldn't bump temps up until you can verify the actual surface temp of the inside of the bin.

On a side note I say the water dish is fine.

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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

That is not a very accurate way to measure at all. Your hand is not delicate enough to feel the difference between a few degrees. You need to get your hands on an IR thermometer or at the very least a digital thermometer with a probe to measure the actual temp. Odds are that if your TSTAT is regulating to 90ish degrees then you will have a slight heat loss through the plastic, not much, but slight. However I wouldn't bump temps up until you can verify the actual surface temp of the inside of the bin.

On a side note I say the water dish is fine.

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perfect.. i do have a digital thermometer with probe .. probe is taped to the inside corner on the hot side.. i could probably move the probe right to the ground where the UTH is and see what it shows.. my TSTAT is set to 33.5 which is about 91.5F so that should be fine.. i'll just leave it there..
now to figure out what kinda of climbing set up i can get going

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clay

perfect.. i do have a digital thermometer with probe .. probe is taped to the inside corner on the hot side.. i could probably move the probe right to the ground where the UTH is and see what it shows.. my TSTAT is set to 33.5 which is about 91.5F so that should be fine.. i'll just leave it there..
now to figure out what kinda of climbing set up i can get going

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If you are going for cheap, go collect some small branches from outside and clean them...I generally soak in bleach and water...wash em good and clean and bake them in the oven at 200 for about an hour. Probably overkill to be honest.

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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

If you are going for cheap, go collect some small branches from outside and clean them...I generally soak in bleach and water...wash em good and clean and bake them in the oven at 200 for about an hour. Probably overkill to be honest.

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i don't mind buying something if it's worth it but i do live less than an hr away from an ocean.. could get some nice smooth drift wood.. that's what i did with my beardy.. just hard to find nice forked or climbing pieces

i want a branch/climbing tree like that.. wonder if you have to buy that from somewhere
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d2...n/DSCF1522.jpg

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Originally Posted by Marissa@MKmorphs

I will chime in with some advice that seems to be the opposite of what everyone else is recommending!

I'm not an advocate of "natural" looking enclosures. More stuff in the enclosure means more stuff to sanitize. Typically naturalistic enclosures don't get cleaned as often or as thoroughly has they should, either.

My yearling Antaresia are currently in V-18 tubs, with small hide, paper towel tube, and water bowl. Even my "big" 300 gram female children's is not even in a 28qt/sub adult tub yet. I would also advise finding tubs with a tighter seal. Your little noodle is tiny and will very easily make his way out of that tub once he figures out how to reach the top.

Just my :2cent:, everyone will have their own opinon of what works best for them. I have found that my guys do very well in their current set ups, never refuse meal, and are never defensive, even at 15-30 grams in weight.

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Melissa, I think there are some unintended generalities in your post. I think that real practitioners of herpetoculture probably maintain their naturalistic enclosures far better than any member of Clan Tupperware. Bioactive substrate is really fairly easy to get going and provides innumerable benefits beyond being almost self cleaning.

Additionally, while cleaning is more involved, it is certainly easily achieved with practice and dedication to the goal...the goal being replicating the environment as close as possible for the benefit of the animal. Sacrificing a bit of time and care to provide a detailed set up is extremely rewarding...and the process of researching it tends to make us better keepers.

Which is in stark contrast to providing an environment that caters to the keeper.

Tubs and racks are wonderful inventions and I'd be a hyprocrite if I told you I do not use them (although I've almost completely phased them out). Finding new and easy ways to simplify husbandry for the benefit of the keeper is not inherently wrong...but let's not delude ourselves that what is good for the keeper is always good for the kept.

I'd like to encourage new keepers to not only research the natural history of their animals, but to also provide an environment that allows the snake to do what it was programmed to do. While such environments may take more effort and care to maintain and set up, the rewards of actually being able to watch your animals display it's full complement of behaviors is worth the payoff.

Antaeresia are not ball pythons. They thrive in environments that allow them space to move and climb. They are prone to lifestyle diseases if fed the "appropriate sized meal every 7 to 10 days" diet and not allowed to move.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Melissa, I think there are some unintended generalities in your post. I think that real practitioners of herpetoculture probably maintain their naturalistic enclosures far better than any member of Clan Tupperware. Bioactive substrate is really fairly easy to get going and provides innumerable benefits beyond being almost self cleaning.

Additionally, while cleaning is more involved, it is certainly easily achieved with practice and dedication to the goal...the goal being replicating the environment as close as possible for the benefit of the animal. Sacrificing a bit of time and care to provide a detailed set up is extremely rewarding...and the process of researching it tends to make us better keepers.

Which is in stark contrast to providing an environment that caters to the keeper.

Tubs and racks are wonderful inventions. finding new and easy ways to simplify husbandry for the benefit of the keeper is not inherently wrong...but let's not delude ourselves that what is good for the keeper is always good for the kept.

I'd like to encourage new keeper to not only research the natural history of their animals, but to also provide an environment that allows the snake to do what it was programmed to do. While such environments may take more effort and care to maintain and set up, the rewards of actually being able to watch your animals display it's full complement of behaviors is worth the payoff.

Antaeresia are not ball pythons. They thrive in environments that allow them space to move and climb. They are prone to lifestyle diseases if fed the "appropriate sized meal every 7 to 10 days" diet and not allowed to move. If the OP would like to take a shot at replicating.

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I agree with and understand your points. I'm not disputing that. Also, as stated in my username, my name is Marissa, not Melissa.

I was simply stating what works for me and my animals. My Antaresia get handled the most out of any of my animals. While there are a select few keepers who properly maintain naturalistic enclosures, for the majority of people who want "pretty" or "natural" or "realistic" don't keep their enclosures and habitats as clean as they should be.

I also like how you just assume that because I keep my animals in racks/tubs/PVC enclosures that I don't take the time to learn as much as I possibly can about every species that I can.

The OP was asking for opinions. I told him what works well for me. Your post came across very condescending and that isn't something I'm used to encountering on this site. Try respecting other opinions, it might do you some good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marissa@MKmorphs

I will chime in with some advice that seems to be the opposite of what everyone else is recommending!

I'm not an advocate of "natural" looking enclosures. More stuff in the enclosure means more stuff to sanitize. Typically naturalistic enclosures don't get cleaned as often or as thoroughly has they should, either.

My yearling Antaresia are currently in V-18 tubs, with small hide, paper towel tube, and water bowl. Even my "big" 300 gram female children's is not even in a 28qt/sub adult tub yet. I would also advise finding tubs with a tighter seal. Your little noodle is tiny and will very easily make his way out of that tub once he figures out how to reach the top.

Just my :2cent:, everyone will have their own opinon of what works best for them. I have found that my guys do very well in their current set ups, never refuse meal, and are never defensive, even at 15-30 grams in weight.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marissa@MKmorphs

I agree with and understand your points. I'm not disputing that. Also, as stated in my username, my name is Marissa, not Melissa.

I was simply stating what works for me and my animals. My Antaresia get handled the most out of any of my animals. While there are a select few keepers who properly maintain naturalistic enclosures, for the majority of people who want "pretty" or "natural" or "realistic" don't keep their enclosures and habitats as clean as they should be.

I also like how you just assume that because I keep my animals in racks/tubs/PVC enclosures that I don't take the time to learn as much as I possibly can about every species that I can.

The OP was asking for opinions. I told him what works well for me. Your post came across very condescending and that isn't something I'm used to encountering on this site. Try respecting other opinions, it might do you some good.

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...and your post is coming off as needlessly defensive and completely out of line. You really took my post as some sort of bizarre attack on your research or your knowledge of the species you keep? Seriously?

My intent is to allow the OP to understand the benefits of keeping his animal in a naturalistic enclosure if need be. Anything you perceive beyond my alternative viewpoint of husbandry was presumptive and frankly, uncalled for.

There is a wonderful Facebook Group called the Herpetoculture Revival Group. While the enclosures vary from amphibians to lizards to snakes, the amount of care, the husbandry tips and the creativity is truly inspiring. Some people have even made naturalistic ball python enclosures complete with the central focus being a giant burrow.

Be forewarned, there is a constant undertone there with regards to keeping animals in bins, but the knowledge and ideas that can be gleaned from that site is well worth the visit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

...and your post is coming off as needlessly defensive and completely out of line. You really took my post as some sort of bizarre attack on your research or your knowledge of the species you keep? Seriously?

My intent is to allow the OP to understand the benefits of keeping his animal in a naturalistic enclosure if need be. Anything you perceive beyond my alternative viewpoint of husbandry was presumptive and frankly, uncalled for.

There is a wonderful Facebook Group called the Herpetoculture Revival Group. While the enclosures vary from amphibians to lizards to snakes, the amount of care, the husbandry tips and the creativity is truly inspiring. Some people have even made naturalistic ball python enclosures complete with the central focus being a giant burrow.

Be forewarned, there is a constant undertone there with regards to keeping animals in bins, but the knowledge and ideas that can be gleaned from that site is well worth the visit.

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curious about the "naturalistic enclosure" since i'm new what is the best way to achieve this.. glass tank or a custom built, can it be done with a tub, mine is one of the bigger tubs height wise, i could maybe look for one that's a little longer in length.. as for glass tanks i have a super hard time heating them, i know you can cover the top half and most do around the sides and back but i like to handle my pets so i don't want a lid i have to fight with to get him out.. my beardy tank has no lid and is a 110 gal glass tank and i had to change up my lighting/heating situation like 3-4 times to get it near right, the cost got pretty pricey figuring it out.. i don't wanna seem cheap but i figured if you buy the right stuff which was suprisly not much the tub would be the cheaper option to go and the snake would still be fine.. i also don't wanna look like the guy who can't afford his pet cuz i've had my beardy 7 yrs now and he's big, healthy and still going strong.. i would rather have natural set up however but i'm not super handy and don't have a ton of free money to throw into the set up plus i live in Canada so we don't have a lot of the less pricey options for DIY..

as an update after my noob mistake with the UTH my tubs ambient temps have went up to 76-77.5 from 73-74.5 but strangely after putting in the bigger water dish my humidity has dropped from 50% to 30% which makes no sense to me but it could be that lid was off for a bit today while i had him out, not really sure? will have to check again tomorrow

keep the feedback rolling, i need input input and information like Johnny 5 haha sorry

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clay

i want a branch/climbing tree like that.. wonder if you have to buy that from somewhere
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d2...n/DSCF1522.jpg

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That looks like the bead blasted wood you get from pet stores. You can definately go buy it, but I still prefer to collect from the trees in my backyard, its free.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clay

curious about the "naturalistic enclosure" since i'm new what is the best way to achieve this.. glass tank or a custom built, can it be done with a tub, mine is one of the bigger tubs height wise, i could maybe look for one that's a little longer in length.. as for glass tanks i have a super hard time heating them, i know you can cover the top half and most do around the sides and back but i like to handle my pets so i don't want a lid i have to fight with to get him out.. my beardy tank has no lid and is a 110 gal glass tank and i had to change up my lighting/heating situation like 3-4 times to get it near right, the cost got pretty pricey figuring it out.. i don't wanna seem cheap but i figured if you buy the right stuff which was suprisly not much the tub would be the cheaper option to go and the snake would still be fine.. i also don't wanna look like the guy who can't afford his pet cuz i've had my beardy 7 yrs now and he's big, healthy and still going strong.. i would rather have natural set up however but i'm not super handy and don't have a ton of free money to throw into the set up plus i live in Canada so we don't have a lot of the less pricey options for DIY..

as an update after my noob mistake with the UTH my tubs ambient temps have went up to 76-77.5 from 73-74.5 but strangely after putting in the bigger water dish my humidity has dropped from 50% to 30% which makes no sense to me but it could be that lid was off for a bit today while i had him out, not really sure? will have to check again tomorrow

keep the feedback rolling, i need input input and information like Johnny 5 haha sorry

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Seconding what Skip said research the snake, and its natural habitat. IMO you can achieve a naturalistic setup in either glass or "custom built", I prefer to use PVC enclosures because they hold heat better than glass. That being as you can see from the pictures in the other thread my snake is currently in a glass tank. I had it laying around and it was big enough to house him for a little bit while I finish my other builds. What I personally like about doing the naturalistic setup is that it is a constant evolution. You try different things out until you find what works, the more you learn the more little tweaks you make. While the setups may take more time to clean, since this is your only snake I doubt that would be a big deal. With my 4 lizards and 1 snake all in "natural" type setups I spend about half a day cleaning once a week, Bio-active substrate helps quite a bit with it. I have yet to actually make the substrate in my snakes enclosure Bio-Active, but plan to eventually. I know my current setup isn't perfect, but like I said the more I learn about each animal the more I can dial it in, and that is what I personally enjoy.

There is nothing wrong with Marissa's setups either, like she said her snakes are all healthy and thriving. That being said I don't have a large collection like she does and that lets me focus more time on the animals I have. Keep your tub for now. Make little tweaks here and there, find out what works for you and what doesn't, give the worm some time to grow, and in the meantime start doing some research and save up for the enclosure you want to have down the road.

I will say on my end I noticed a drastic change in all my reptiles behaviors as I started modifying their setups. They became more active, my lizards started burrowing, the python started climbing, hanging from above and drinking water, exploring more, etc. Here are a few links for just some general reading. You have gotten good advice from everyone so far so just build on it.

http://www.australianaddiction.com/C...ensPython.html (link to a good book on them)

http://www.varanustalk.com/forum/index.php?pageid=Dirt (bio-active soil)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clay

curious about the "naturalistic enclosure" since i'm new what is the best way to achieve this.. glass tank or a custom built, can it be done with a tub, mine is one of the bigger tubs height wise, i could maybe look for one that's a little longer in length.. as for glass tanks i have a super hard time heating them, i know you can cover the top half and most do around the sides and back but i like to handle my pets so i don't want a lid i have to fight with to get him out.. my beardy tank has no lid and is a 110 gal glass tank and i had to change up my lighting/heating situation like 3-4 times to get it near right, the cost got pretty pricey figuring it out.. i don't wanna seem cheap but i figured if you buy the right stuff which was suprisly not much the tub would be the cheaper option to go and the snake would still be fine.. i also don't wanna look like the guy who can't afford his pet cuz i've had my beardy 7 yrs now and he's big, healthy and still going strong.. i would rather have natural set up however but i'm not super handy and don't have a ton of free money to throw into the set up plus i live in Canada so we don't have a lot of the less pricey options for DIY..

as an update after my noob mistake with the UTH my tubs ambient temps have went up to 76-77.5 from 73-74.5 but strangely after putting in the bigger water dish my humidity has dropped from 50% to 30% which makes no sense to me but it could be that lid was off for a bit today while i had him out, not really sure? will have to check again tomorrow

keep the feedback rolling, i need input input and information like Johnny 5 haha sorry

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This is something we can discuss through PM or private email. The process can be daunting, but in reality it's fairly easy.

There has been a lot written on "recipes" for bioactive substrate but I kinda stumbled on a formula by accident. Where I work there is slide material that has a high amount of natural DG and top soil mixed in with some sandy loam. Once dried and spread it makes a wonderful bioactive substrate medium. during the winter, we stockpile this stuff (it comes from a National Park) in our staging area and I literally have access to thousands of cubic yards of it.

I was using it in my monitor enclosures because it is perfect for many of the odataria species. After awhile I noticed that I had a ton of isopods in the enclosures. I actually use these to seed additional set ups.

This substrate is self cleaning...the isopods and other organisms rapidly break down waste.

After you find a suitable substrate, the next trick is researching the natural environment of your children. As J pointed out, there are numerous resources you can draw on to give you ideas. Do they utilize burrows? Do they use rock formations? Do they climb? Do they drink from puddled water or from accumulated moisture? What temps have they been observed basking at? Do they seem to benefit from UV light at all? Are they nocturnal, diurnal or crepuscular?

Find those answers out for yourself. If they utilize burrows, a terra cota pot buried in the bioactive substrate will do a great job of wicking water from the soil and making a nice humid burrow. If they utilize rock ledges, you can buy some nice ones made of foam from several sources....the options are endless and the results are...as others have attested to....rewarding.

As J related, PVC enclosures are nice because they not only hold humidity and temps better, but also their dimension tend to work better for reptile species.

At some point I'm going to put my current clelia rustica naturalistic build up..from start to finish. Again, if you have any questions regarding the process, feel free to PM me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

This is something we can discuss through PM or private email. The process can be daunting, but in reality it's fairly easy.

There has been a lot written on "recipes" for bioactive substrate but I kinda stumbled on a formula by accident. Where I work there is slide material that has a high amount of natural DG and top soil mixed in with some sandy loam. Once dried and spread it makes a wonderful bioactive substrate medium. during the winter, we stockpile this stuff (it comes from a National Park) in our staging area and I literally have access to thousands of cubic yards of it.

I was using it in my monitor enclosures because it is perfect for many of the odataria species. After awhile I noticed that I had a ton of isopods in the enclosures. I actually use these to seed additional set ups.

This substrate is self cleaning...the isopods and other organisms rapidly break down waste.

After you find a suitable substrate, the next trick is researching the natural environment of your children. As J pointed out, there are numerous resources you can draw on to give you ideas. Do they utilize burrows? Do they use rock formations? Do they climb? Do they drink from puddled water or from accumulated moisture? What temps have they been observed basking at? Do they seem to benefit from UV light at all? Are they nocturnal, diurnal or crepuscular?

Find those answers out for yourself. If they utilize burrows, a terra cota pot buried in the bioactive substrate will do a great job of wicking water from the soil and making a nice humid burrow. If they utilize rock ledges, you can buy some nice ones made of foam from several sources....the options are endless and the results are...as others have attested to....rewarding.

As J related, PVC enclosures are nice because they not only hold humidity and temps better, but also their dimension tend to work better for reptile species.

At some point I'm going to put my current clelia rustica naturalistic build up..from start to finish. Again, if you have any questions regarding the process, feel free to PM me.

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do you have PVC tank set up for your naturalistic build?
i remember ppl would use PVC piping for Iguana tanks but haven't actually seen a PVC snake set up yet, will google search some..

also i had my thermometer set to the wrong setting so it was reading my living room temp instead of inside the tub so i switched that over.. Humidity is showing 40% and my ambient is 73F.. have the TSTAT set to 91.5F.. maybe i made too many air holes (back side has two rows 3/4 across the top of the tub and front side has 3 rows of holes all the way across using a soldering iron)

just looked up some of the PVC tanks.. seen them at the Reptile Expo, wish i had more money to grab them, they were cheap compared to these online prices..
looked at some bio tank set ups too.. maybe later on i'll have more time to set something like that up.. always wanted like pool or stream to water set up for as long as i could remember too but you really need the know how to do all this stuff.. i have 2 younger kids so i don't really get a lot of time to sit and figure stuff out without interruptions yet

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clay

just looked up some of the PVC tanks.. seen them at the Reptile Expo, wish i had more money to grab them, they were cheap compared to these online prices..
looked at some bio tank set ups too.. maybe later on i'll have more time to set something like that up.. always wanted like pool or stream to water set up for as long as i could remember too but you really need the know how to do all this stuff.. i have 2 younger kids so i don't really get a lot of time to sit and figure stuff out without interruptions yet

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You can generally find them used for quite a discount depending on what you are looking for. For off the shelf I use Vision Cages, they aren't the prettiest, but they are one piece and light weight. I made some mods to the them to allow for a deeper substrate, which is what led to me build my own enclosures, it isn't any cheaper but it lets me build them exactely how I want them. I assume some of the bio-tanks you saw were for frogs etc since you mentioned pools and streams. Do yourself a favor and really research like Skip and I have both said where Anteresia Childerni come from and what their natural habitat looks like. You will realize that generally when one refers to a "bio-tank" they are just referring to the fact that the soil is "alive" meaning it has springtails, isopods, and other cleaner bugs that help sustain the environment and clean up waste. It can also refer to living plants etc. While the planning takes a while once you have a direction to go the keep up really is minimal, and again I myself find it rewarding. I enjoy watch the animal in its environment just as much as I enjoy hands on with it. You can build it in stages as well. Again mine is no where near complete for any of the reptiles I keep because it is a constant evolution of "how can I make this better".

I don't know how old your kids are, but I have a 6 year old son, and he has really enjoyed helping me out, it use to be all about "I want to hold them", now he tries to do his own research and come up with ideas on how to improve the environment. Its is a fun bonding/learning experience. All that being said you have to want to do it and enjoy it or like anything else it will become a chore. You don't have to do anything right now other than research as much as you can. Skip pointed you in the direction of some great starting points.

As far as the temps in your tank. You may have added too many holes, since heat rises and your holes are at the top of the bin you are losing a bit of heat. Where are you taking the reading for your ambient temps vs the reading for your surface temp? You really should have a probe for each spot or an IR temp gun to measure the hot spot. That being said I try not to give too much advice on different Temps because what works for me may not work for someone else, but I will say this (**I am not telling you what temps to use, again do some searching**) But the ambients in MY tank are mid 70s and the hot spot fluctuates between 98-101, so a low 90s hot spot IN MY OPTION is a little too low.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

You can generally find them used for quite a discount depending on what you are looking for. For off the shelf I use Vision Cages, they aren't the prettiest, but they are one piece and light weight. I made some mods to the them to allow for a deeper substrate, which is what led to me build my own enclosures, it isn't any cheaper but it lets me build them exactely how I want them. I assume some of the bio-tanks you saw were for frogs etc since you mentioned pools and streams. Do yourself a favor and really research like Skip and I have both said where Anteresia Childerni come from and what their natural habitat looks like. You will realize that generally when one refers to a "bio-tank" they are just referring to the fact that the soil is "alive" meaning it has springtails, isopods, and other cleaner bugs that help sustain the environment and clean up waste. It can also refer to living plants etc. While the planning takes a while once you have a direction to go the keep up really is minimal, and again I myself find it rewarding. I enjoy watch the animal in its environment just as much as I enjoy hands on with it. You can build it in stages as well. Again mine is no where near complete for any of the reptiles I keep because it is a constant evolution of "how can I make this better".

I don't know how old your kids are, but I have a 6 year old son, and he has really enjoyed helping me out, it use to be all about "I want to hold them", now he tries to do his own research and come up with ideas on how to improve the environment. Its is a fun bonding/learning experience. All that being said you have to want to do it and enjoy it or like anything else it will become a chore. You don't have to do anything right now other than research as much as you can. Skip pointed you in the direction of some great starting points.

As far as the temps in your tank. You may have added too many holes, since heat rises and your holes are at the top of the bin you are losing a bit of heat. Where are you taking the reading for your ambient temps vs the reading for your surface temp? You really should have a probe for each spot or an IR temp gun to measure the hot spot. That being said I try not to give too much advice on different Temps because what works for me may not work for someone else, but I will say this (**I am not telling you what temps to use, again do some searching**) But the ambients in MY tank are mid 70s and the hot spot fluctuates between 98-101, so a low 90s hot spot IN MY OPTION is a little too low.

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i searched google for bio active python tank but it showed some for other reptiles too, moving water is just cool looking in tanks i think..
i heard you need a pretty big tank and bio set up to actually have use of the cleaner bugs cleaning things like waste?
my kids are 2 and 5 yrs old.. my 5 yr old holds the snake and enjoys it so he'll help out soon i'm sure..
i've got a probe from the thermometer 1.5-2 inches off the ground in the corner of the hot side.. i figure that could catch my ambient temp.. i don't have anything checking the belly/ground temp besides the TSTAT probe between the mat and outside of the tub.. i will say i put my finger to the bottom of the inside of the tub where the UTH is and it actually feels warm like it would be emitting good belly heat (i know you said not to use ur hand but at this time that's all i had and i think were ok there.. i think the tub is close now.. ambient is almost mid 70s.. humidity about 40% so i'm just a tad low it sounds like

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clay

i searched google for bio active python tank but it showed some for other reptiles too, moving water is just cool looking in tanks i think..
i heard you need a pretty big tank and bio set up to actually have use of the cleaner bugs cleaning things like waste?
my kids are 2 and 5 yrs old.. my 5 yr old holds the snake and enjoys it so he'll help out soon i'm sure..
i've got a probe from the thermometer 1.5-2 inches off the ground in the corner of the hot side.. i figure that could catch my ambient temp.. i don't have anything checking the belly/ground temp besides the TSTAT probe between the mat and outside of the tub.. i will say i put my finger to the bottom of the inside of the tub where the UTH is and it actually feels warm like it would be emitting good belly heat (i know you said not to use ur hand but at this time that's all i had and i think were ok there.. i think the tub is close now.. ambient is almost mid 70s.. humidity about 40% so i'm just a tad low it sounds like

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I don't think that you have to have a big tank to use a cleaning crew. The use springtails in small dart frog enclosures with some success. I really depends on the load you are trying to sustain. The waste from a childrens python is minimal. The waste from my Tegu is massive so I need a large number of springtails, worms and isopods in there, but the cage size is much much bigger.