Should I soak?

My super black pastel never drinks I feel like. Only after he eats. I know i won't seem him do it much but he gets very wrinkly (even after shed) and has all vertical lines going down where his "rolls" are when he's curled up that don't really go away when stretched out. So weekly Ive been soaking him and he drinks A LOT while soaking and these wrinkles get better the next day. Its like he's almost dehydrated but his humidity is always above 60%. Ive had past snakes that hate soaking and squirm around but he seems to actually like it and his skin looks more hydrated after. Do you guys recommend occasional soaks for hydration? I know soaking takes essential oils out of the skin as well. I don't soak before shed and he has no problem shedding. I feel like he just lets himself get dehydrated. :confusd:

Does he always have access to water? Is his water bowl big enough for him to soak in if he wants or needs to? What temps are you running?

If you have a water bowl for your BP in his terrarium, he should be just fine. If he's dehydrated he'll drink. Don't forget that BPs do get some of their water consumption from their meals. No need to soak.

I feel like soaking him so much could possibly be an accidental RI waiting to happen but that's just my two cents.

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Originally Posted by bondo

Does he always have access to water? Is his water bowl big enough for him to soak in if he wants or needs to? What temps are you running?

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He always has a bowl. Its the Reptile Basics crock dish. 92-93 hot spot with heat pad, 83-84 ambient temp from red bulb in center of cage. The light dries out the tank quick but I mist heavy daily to 90% and it dissipates to 50% the next day. And the top is mostly covered.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

If you have a water bowl for your BP in his terrarium, he should be just fine. If he's dehydrated he'll drink. Don't forget that BPs do get some of their water consumption from their meals. No need to soak.

I feel like soaking him so much could possibly be an accidental RI waiting to happen but that's just my two cents.

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I use warm water and soak for 5-10 minutes I don't let it get cool. The most I soak is once or twice a month. He just seems to drink a lot and they all his wrinkly skin goes away within a half hour. Its weird.

Before soak:

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04...fab39cbeae.jpg

The wrinkles are very pronounced.

After soak:

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04...a96d25eeb6.jpg

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04...82de871f34.jpg

The wrinkles dissipate into lines then those will fade after drinking during soak.

IMO those temps are too hot. 75 ambient and 90 on the hot spot are max temps. If you can run without the bulb also would help with humidity. You should never have to soak your snake. However your snake does sound dehydrated. Make sure the bowl is big enough for the snake to soak and lower your temps. Eliminate the bulb if you can and that should correct things.

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Originally Posted by bondo

IMO those temps are too hot. 75 ambient and 90 on the hot spot are max temps. If you can run without the bulb also would help with humidity. You should never have to soak your snake. However your snake does sound dehydrated. Make sure the bowl is big enough for the snake to soak and lower your temps. Eliminate the bulb if you can and that should correct things.

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75 is way to cold for a ambient IMO. 75 is close to room temp I am not risking a RI. When it goes down to 80 degrees he goes on the warm side only. the cool side is 80-81. The middle (ambient) ranges 82-84 under the bulb. Warm side on the glass measures 92-93 which makes above the substrate ~90-91 degrees. I have a thermostat for both the heat pad and bulb. He is usually on the warm side now but goes to the cool side here and there. I won't drop the temp lower then 80 on cool side/ambient.

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Originally Posted by 8_Ball

75 is way to cold for a ambient IMO. 75 is close to room temp I am not risking a RI. When it goes down to 80 degrees he goes on the warm side only. the cool side is 80-81. The middle (ambient) ranges 82-84 under the bulb. Warm side on the glass measures 92-93 which makes above the substrate ~90-91 degrees. I have a thermostat for both the heat pad and bulb. He is usually on the warm side now but goes to the cool side here and there. I won't drop the temp lower then 80 on cool side/ambient.

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Then continue soaking I guess. Until the husbandry changes the snake will suffer.

Usually, if the BP is dehydrated, his/her eyes will dent. Is that something that you notice happening when you don't soak?

Personally, I dont think he's dehydrated. My BPs always drink when I change their water or after their meals but they're not dehydrated. Just being snakes.

Ok well 80 is not high at all, I'm sorry but 95% of big breeders just have an ambient of 86 degrees and no hot spots and the snakes are fine. Go look up the average temperatures from Ghana and you will not see the lows dip below 78-79 usually. And the ground stays warmer than that even at night. Just because it gets to 70 here and there doesn't mean thats the best temperature to keep your snakes all year long. I bet your snakes spend most of their time on their hot spots. I've never heard of keeping snakes 75 ambient.. maybe the cool side the most but not the whole enclosure. The snake is not suffering if he spends most of the time on the warm side because clearly if he was "too hot and suffering" he would be on the cool side in his identical hide. I really don't think he drinks much from his water bowl. Thats my concern. I live far up North and if I had 75 degrees for the majority of his cage I would have a RI because is is drafty here most of the year.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

Usually, if the BP is dehydrated, his/her eyes will dent. Is that something that you notice happening when you don't soak?

Personally, I dont think he's dehydrated. My BPs always drink when I change their water or after their meals but they're not dehydrated. Just being snakes.

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Nope no denting, just big bright black eyes. Maybe when I mist its not actually the hides just around it and it is dry in the hides? Maybe some damp moss will help in one of the hides. He spends most of his time on the warm side so I highly doubt its too warm for him. Maybe the wrinkles are just from being balled up so tightly. He has the small Reptile Basic hides that are supposed to fit up to 300-400 gram balls but he's only ~225 grams. Should I maybe up the hide sizes?

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Originally Posted by 8_Ball

75 is way to cold for a ambient IMO. 75 is close to room temp I am not risking a RI. When it goes down to 80 degrees he goes on the warm side only. the cool side is 80-81. The middle (ambient) ranges 82-84 under the bulb. Warm side on the glass measures 92-93 which makes above the substrate ~90-91 degrees. I have a thermostat for both the heat pad and bulb. He is usually on the warm side now but goes to the cool side here and there. I won't drop the temp lower then 80 on cool side/ambient.

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Cooler temps alone in the 75 range do not lead to RI, what does in a lot of cases is a combination of poor husbandry (low humidity or high humidity for example) and stress (stress brought on by soaking/giving bath to your snake etc)

Lower temps are less of a problem than stress is :gj:

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Originally Posted by 8_Ball

Ok well 80 is not high at all, I'm sorry but 95% of big breeders just have an ambient of 86 degrees and no hot spots and the snakes are fine. Go look up the average temperatures from Ghana and you will not see the lows dip below 78-79 usually. And the ground stays warmer than that even at night. Just because it gets to 70 here and there doesn't mean thats the best temperature to keep your snakes all year long. I bet your snakes spend most of their time on their hot spots. I've never heard of keeping snakes 75 ambient.. maybe the cool side the most but not the whole enclosure. The snake is not suffering if he spends most of the time on the warm side because clearly if he was "too hot and suffering" he would be on the cool side in his identical hide. I really don't think he drinks much from his water bowl. Thats my concern. I live far up North and if I had 75 degrees for the majority of his cage I would have a RI because is is drafty here most of the year.

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Balls don't just live in Ghana and I call bull on 95% of breeders keeping an ambient temp of 86 and no hot spot . They use the hot spot after eating. Other then that they are spread around. I live in northern WI and have had no ri issue ever with a ball python.

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Originally Posted by 8_Ball

Nope no denting, just big bright black eyes. Maybe when I mist its not actually the hides just around it and it is dry in the hides? Maybe some damp moss will help in one of the hides. He spends most of his time on the warm side so I highly doubt its too warm for him. Maybe the wrinkles are just from being balled up so tightly. He has the small Reptile Basic hides that are supposed to fit up to 300-400 gram balls but he's only ~225 grams. Should I maybe up the hide sizes?

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Originally Posted by bondo

Balls don't just live in Ghana and I call bull on 95% of breeders keeping an ambient temp of 86 and no hot spot . They use the hot spot after eating. Other then that they are spread around. I live in northern WI and have had no ri issue ever with a ball python.

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Well your misinformed. I can think of a few big name breeders who have heated snake breeding facilities of 84-86 degrees with no hot spots. It is becoming more common now.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Cooler temps alone in the 75 range do not lead to RI, what does in a lot of cases is a combination of poor husbandry (low humidity or high humidity for example) and stress (stress brought on by soaking/giving bath to your snake etc)

Lower temps are less of a problem than stress is :gj:

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If he was stressed he would not feed every 5 days so I know he's not stressed lol. I literally put a quarter inch or lukewarm water in a critter keeper and place him in there. He drinks and I take him out in less then 5 minutes before the water cools. I only did this three times in the past 6 months and I only handle him about once or twice weekly for pictures and whatnot because he is so laid back. I mist in the mornings daily to 90% and by 6 pm it is almost at 50% again. I have humidity and heating down (which is a lot tougher since I do not have a heated reptile room with racks anymore since down sizing but it is do-able). I just would never go to 75 degrees since I live in a cool climate and the house fluctuates even though I have thermostats. I do not think a newbie should try cooler than recommended temps unless their husbandry is spot on which most members on here it probably is not. 75/81/90 zones are good but in a smaller enclosure 81/91 is easier to maintain :D I would keep kings/milks/corns cooler than my ball python.

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Originally Posted by bondo

Balls don't just live in Ghana and I call bull on 95% of breeders keeping an ambient temp of 86 and no hot spot . They use the hot spot after eating. Other then that they are spread around. I live in northern WI and have had no ri issue ever with a ball python.

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My last two cents.. I found a old post on here:

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...53-No-hot-spot

Kevin from Nerd doesn't use hot spots just an ambient of mid 80's. And Justin from J. Kobylka Reptiles does not ether in his new facility.

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Originally Posted by 8_Ball

Well your misinformed. I can think of a few big name breeders who have heated snake breeding facilities of 84-86 degrees with no hot spots. It is becoming more common now.

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You changed your story LOL Is it 95% of the breeders or a few?

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Originally Posted by bondo

You changed your story LOL Is it 95% of the breeders or a few?

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I really meant 95% of big breeders keep their ambient a over 80 and some even have only ambients in the mid 80s with no hot spots. I backspaced and didn't finish because obviously most breeders use heat tape under tubs with a hot spot. But 95% of big breeders have a ambient over 80 for a fact because that's the suggested husbandry that has been taught.

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I do not think a newbie should try cooler than recommended

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And I don't think a newbie should soak his snake which is why when one ask I will always say BP do not need soaking / bath.

You got your answer there is no benefit in soaking your snake.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

And I don't think a newbie should soak his snake which is why when one ask I will always say BP do not need soaking / bath.

You got your answer there is no benefit in soaking your snake.

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Ok well that's why I asked because you see mixed answers on soaking before shedding.. I don't need someone telling me my snake is "suffering" because it is kept at an 82 degree ambient and not 69-75 degrees. That's absurd.

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Originally Posted by 8_Ball

Ok well that's why I asked because you see mixed answers on soaking before shedding.. I don't need someone telling me my snake is "suffering" because it is kept at an 82 degree ambient and not 69-75 degrees. That's absurd.

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You said your snake was dehydrated. So if you continue with your husbandry then the snake is suffering. The snake isn't doing anything wrong the snake keeper is. 82 ambient and 92 hot is too hot. At a minimum at least try tweaking your methods a little to fix the problem instead of saying I am doing nothing wrong but my snake has something wrong with it.

I have another thought. Do you clean your bowl, like scrub and rinse, every couple days...? If it's old water or the bowl is filmy might be a reason

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Originally Posted by anicatgirl

I have another thought. Do you clean your bowl, like scrub and rinse, every couple days...? If it's old water or the bowl is filmy might be a reason

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I do rinse it every two/three days with fresh water and scrub it when I spot clean weekly. The bowl is under the heat lamp, not directly but I just noticed the water is somewhat warm. I usually do this to cause evaporation=humidity but maybe the water is too warm for his liking? I do see him drink after he eats but I don't know. Maybe because he is all black these lines where he is folding his skin show more? I just never noticed it on patterned ball pythons. I feel like after a big drink they seem to go away but this could be from stretching out and not being balled up. I'm probably just over thinking the situation. He eats, sheds, defecates fine so Im not overly concerned. His eyes are not dented so he's not dehydrated. I feel like his skin is just "dry" which in turn causes the wrinkles.