Husbandry vent

I need to vent a little about this. As new people get into the hobby they look at care sheets which is great. It shows they are responsible and care about their animals. The problem is these care sheets were put together 30 years ago. If you follow the sheets your snake will do just fine. The problem is people get hung up on them. The care sheet said this so it has to be. That is not true. The two issues I have are temps and day/night cycle.

Let's begin with the day/night cycle. Ball pythons are nocturnal they hunt and roam at night for the most part. They also live underground. Unlike some reptiles they have no need for uv lighting. Yes they do come out during the day when they need to. They don't come out because they want to be in light. There is absolutely no reason for a day/night cycle. Also lights with a tank setup should be banned as far as I am concerned. If your ambient is really cold then do what you need to. The lights stress the animal and take the humidity from the tank so they should only be used if absolutely needed.

Second thing is the temps. Temps have been debated since the first ball pythons have been kept in captivity. A temp of 80 ambient and 90 hot seems to be the area of temps in a lot of care sheets. The lows in parts of Africa where these snakes are get into the 60s through some parts of the year. Yes it does stay warmer under ground where they live. However they need to go out and hunt and breed so they do get exposed to these temps. Most breeders I know keep their ambient in the low 70s. Some like myself have kept them in the high 60s. I do not recommend going this cold for those that are new to ball pythons. However I am tired of hearing new people in the hobby saying the ambient has to be 80 and you must have light for them because both statements are false. Vent over LOL

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Originally Posted by bondo

I need to vent a little about this. As new people get into the hobby they look at care sheets which is great. It shows they are responsible and care about their animals. The problem is these care sheets were put together 30 years ago. If you follow the sheets your snake will do just fine. The problem is people get hung up on them. The care sheet said this so it has to be. That is not true. The two issues I have are temps and day/night cycle.

Let's begin with the day/night cycle. Ball pythons are nocturnal they hunt and roam at night for the most part. They also live underground. Unlike some reptiles they have no need for uv lighting. Yes they do come out during the day when they need to. They don't come out because they want to be in light. There is absolutely no reason for a day/night cycle. Also lights with a tank setup should be banned as far as I am concerned. If your ambient is really cold then do what you need to. The lights stress the animal and take the humidity from the tank so they should only be used if absolutely needed.

Second thing is the temps. Temps have been debated since the first ball pythons have been kept in captivity. A temp of 80 ambient and 90 hot seems to be the area of temps in a lot of care sheets. The lows in parts of Africa where these snakes are get into the 60s through some parts of the year. Yes it does stay warmer under ground where they live. However they need to go out and hunt and breed so they do get exposed to these temps. Most breeders I know keep their ambient in the low 70s. Some like myself have kept them in the high 60s. I do not recommend going this cold for those that are new to ball pythons. However I am tired of hearing new people in the hobby saying the ambient has to be 80 and you must have light for them because both statements are false. Vent over LOL

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Great to know honestly. I am new to BPs. I didnt know that the light actually takes away the humidity until 3days ago when i left it off and just used my CHE and the temp and humidity was perfect. Are you a breeder as well? And if so how long?

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I do not recommend going this cold for those that are new to ball pythons. However I am tired of hearing new people in the hobby saying the ambient has to be 80 and you must have light for them because both statements are false. Vent over LOL

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The problem right here is that most people asking for help are obviously experiencing issues and recommending optimum ranges is what will help them solve those issues as fast as possible.

It does not mean that they should not experienced around when they are knowledgeable enough and it does not mean the person making those recommendations keep theirs that way, their are many way to keep Ball Pythons the important is to find the one that works for your animals and yourself.

I NEVER recommend what I do, reason being it would not be optimal for a new owner and would not help troubleshooting their issues.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

The problem right here is that most people asking for help are obviously experiencing issues and recommending optimum ranges is what will help them solve those issues as fast as possible.

It does not mean that they should not experienced around when they are knowledgeable enough and it does not mean the person making those recommendations keep theirs that way, their are many way to keep Ball Pythons the important is to find the one that works for your animals and yourself.

I NEVER recommend what I do, reason being it would not be optimal for a new owner and would not help troubleshooting their issues.

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I agree with that statement 100%. I am just trying to say that people need to open their minds to other things that are not on the care sheet. Like I said if they follow the care sheet they should have no issues for keeping their snake in good shape. I will say though I feel anything over 75 for an ambient is too high but if they want to keep it at 80 and their snake is fine then that is all that matters.

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Originally Posted by Srt_529

Great to know honestly. I am new to BPs. I didnt know that the light actually takes away the humidity until 3days ago when i left it off and just used my CHE and the temp and humidity was perfect. Are you a breeder as well? And if so how long?

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I have been breeding balls for 8 years or so now. Trust me when I say I learn new things every year about them. When it comes to snakes you need to keep your mind open to things and learn from them and other snake keepers.

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Originally Posted by bondo

I have been breeding balls for 8 years or so now. Trust me when I say I learn new things every year about them. When it comes to snakes you need to keep your mind open to things and learn from them and other snake keepers.

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Thats good. Yeah thats why i try to get opinions from others and try my own things since everyones tank and setups are diffrent. I just try to do the best for my little guy and his health

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Originally Posted by bondo

I agree with that statement 100%. I am just trying to say that people need to open their minds to other things that are not on the care sheet.

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I believe it's in the human nature for some to stay within a certain comfort zone without experimenting new things, and it's not just about BP ;)

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Originally Posted by Deborah

I believe it's in the human nature for some to stay within a certain comfort zone without experimenting new things, and it's not just about BP ;)

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Here, here! I completely agree.

Disclaimer: If it ain't broke, though... ;)

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Disclaimer: If it ain't broke, though... ;)

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I have always been one to like breaking things just so I could see how they work and how I could fix them. ;)

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Here, here! I completely agree.

Disclaimer: If it ain't broke, though... ;)

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However it is broke lol I still stand with a night/day cycle is not needed. I also still say 80 is too high of an ambient temp.

I'm not against trying new thing or experimenting. Definitely nothing wrong with that. With that said, the Africa argument is getting old.

I have two dogs yet they don't scavange for food because they're my pets and it's my responsibility to feed them. Same thing with temps. Is there health benefits to keeping the temperatures in high 60s/ low 70s? If there is, I don't see it. Additionally, it's a lot harder to keep humidity up with low temps. I guess my question is, what's the benefits?

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

I'm not against trying new thing or experimenting. Definitely nothing wrong with that. With that said, the Africa argument is getting old.

I have two dogs yet they don't scavange for food because they're my pets and it's my responsibility to feed them. Same thing with temps. Is there health benefits to keeping the temperatures in high 60s/ low 70s? If there is, I don't see it. Additionally, it's a lot harder to keep humidity up with low temps. I guess my question is, what's the benefits?

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There is no argument the temps are what they are. You mean to tell me it is best to change temps to what we feel is right and not try to reproduce what they are naturally in? Cooler temps makes it easier to keep humidity because the light doesn't need to be on drying the tank out. Do you keep your dogs in temps of 80-90 all day 365 days a year? Give a snake the proper hot spot and they will regulate themselves. They have been doing it long before we were ever around.

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Originally Posted by bondo

However it is broke lol I still stand with a night/day cycle is not needed. I also still say 80 is too high of an ambient temp.

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Be careful how you word this, just because it works for you doesn't mean it will for others. 75 degrees in a drafty house is going to likely cause a RI in my opinion. And newbies who see that may think that a 75 room temperature with no supplemental heating is ok. I've seen way to many RI cases on here from temps in the mid to high 70's. 75 cool side is okay with some colubrids but IMO not ball pythons. I like to be safe then sorry and keep my ambient at 82ish.

I have a PVC enclosure running a RHP so I don't have a problem with lights/heat source drying out my enclosures. Additionally, the warmer it is the easier it is to keep humidity up.

I'm not going to start on the comment about the dogs because your question is completely irrelevant and not very thought out whatsoever.

You still haven't answered my question regarding the benefit of keeping temps that low. I don't mind learning something new but your argument is "because Africa".

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

I have a PVC enclosure running a RHP so I don't have a problem with lights/heat source drying out my enclosures. Additionally, the warmer it is the easier it is to keep humidity up.

I'm not going to start on the comment about the dogs because your question is completely irrelevant and not very thought out whatsoever.

You still haven't answered my question regarding the benefit of keeping temps that low. I don't mind learning something new but your argument is "because Africa".

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You brought the dogs up so I spun it back to you. I DID answer the question of benefits it is their natural temps. All reptiles need a way to regulate their temps. With 80 ambient and 90+ hot they can only do so much. If you ever wanted to breed you would have a very tough time at those temps. The reason why is because those temps are hotter then they are use to. Otherwise they would breed ovulate and have very few slugs at those temps. However that doesn't happen at those temps because they are getting cooked.

Well first of all, if you're going to go there, my dogs aren't cold blooded so I don't need to keep them at 80 ambient temps. Lol...

Your answer to me is "because Africa".That's not an answer, nor are we in Africa. 78-85 ambient temps recreate optimal temps for BPs. I'm sure that larger breeders on this forum will chime in that they keep their collections at one steady temps of around 84 if not a bit higher.

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Originally Posted by bondo

I DID answer the question of benefits it is their natural temps.

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Southern Ghana's natural temps:

• Average temperatures between 74-91 (rarely below 70 or above 94)
• Average high of 89 and average low of 77 during the warm season (March-April)
• Average high of 82 and average low of 75 during the cold season (July-August)

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Originally Posted by Mr. Misha

Well first of all, if you're going to go there, my dogs aren't cold blooded so I don't need to keep them at 80 ambient temps. Lol...

Your answer to me is "because Africa".That's not an answer, nor are we in Africa. 78-85 ambient temps recreate optimal temps for BPs. I'm sure that larger breeders on this forum will chime in that they keep their collections at one steady temps of around 84 if not a bit higher.

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YOU brought up the dogs. Wow. Ball pythons originate from Africa yet their natural temps don't matter. That makes sense.

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75 cool side is okay with some colubrids but IMO not ball pythons

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9 years at 75 on the cool side during the cooler months (breeders and hatchlings) and ZERO RI in 9 years. :gj:

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Southern Ghana's natural temps:

• Average temperatures between 74-91 (rarely below 70 or above 94)
• Average high of 89 and average low of 77 during the warm season (March-April)
• Average high of 82 and average low of 75 during the cold season (July-August)

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Bangui, Central African Republic

The warm season lasts from January 23 to March 18 with an average daily high temperature above 93°F. The hottest day of the year is February 9, with an average high of 94°F and low of 69°F.

The cold season lasts from June 20 to August 27 with an average daily high temperature below 87°F. The coldest day of the year is January 3, with an average low of 65°F and high of 91°F.

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Originally Posted by bondo

YOU brought up the dogs. Wow. Ball pythons originate from Africa yet their natural temps don't matter. That makes sense.

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I have a good friend that was born in Ghana, Africa. He caught balls all the time for fun when he was younger. Used to pick them right out of the termite mounds while digging and they would be warm to the touch. The grounds stay warm and the soil is moist. Balls like semi-humid, warm habitats not a habitat in the 60's-low 70s. It rarely gets that cold so why subject the snake to something not natural? And we see too many snakes with RI's on here from being kept under 80 degrees. If it isn't broke don't fix it. Im not saying for you to change your ways.. If it works for you great. But do not preach this to inexperienced keepers who don't even know how to heat a ball pythons habitat. If they see 75 they will think 75 is ok for the whole enclosure.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

9 years at 75 on the cool side during the cooler months (breeders and hatchlings) and ZERO RI in 9 years. :gj:

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Thank you. 8 years here of high 60s to low 70s and no ri

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Originally Posted by 8_Ball

I have a good friend that was born in Ghana, Africa. He caught balls all the time for fun when he was younger. Used to pick them right out of the termite mounds while digging and they would be warm to the touch. The grounds stay warm and the soil is moist. Balls like semi-humid, warm habitats not a habitat in the 60's-low 70s. It rarely gets that cold so why subject the snake to something not natural? And we see too many snakes with RI's on here from being kept under 80 degrees. If it isn't broke don't fix it. Im not saying for you to change your ways.. If it works for you great. But do not preach this to inexperienced keepers who don't even know how to heat a ball pythons habitat. If they see 75 they will think 75 is ok for the whole enclosure.

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Balls don't live only in Ghana. So they heat the whole enclosure at 80 then? I never said the hot side should be 75.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

9 years at 75 on the cool side during the cooler months (breeders and hatchlings) and ZERO RI in 9 years. :gj:

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Cool side I agree is ok for experienced keepers with zero fluctuations. 75 for the whole enclosure minus belly heat is a RI waiting to happen. If the enclosure is 75/81/90 thats fine. I don't feel comfortable telling newbies 75 for the ambient is ok.

Bondo, the warmer the air the easier the humidity is simple physics warm air can carry more humidity that cool. Lamps don't dry the air they raise the saturation point, a fixed amount expressed as a % of a increased amount is a lower %. (example: 10$ is 100% of 10$ but 10$ is only 10% of $100.) Loosely the for every 2ºF lower than 80ºF you increase the necessary RH by 5%, For every 2ºF over 80ºF the necessary RH drops by 5%. If you are 4ºF below 80ºF (74ºF you need about 70%RH or if it is 84ºF you then only need 50% RH to keep the absolute humidity the same.)

"Relative humidity is the amount of moisture in the air compared to what the air can "hold" at a given temperature (saturation density). When the air can't "hold" all the moisture, then it condenses as dew. The warmer the air the higher the saturation density, the cooler the lower. The relative humidity is the percent of saturation humidity, generally calculated in relation to saturated vapor density."

It is not very hard, RH=a % of the saturation point and the saturation point is relative to temperature.

Royals have been re-classified as crepuscular-nocturnal. There is also a move to re-classify them as semi-arboreal, as the frequency they re found in trees after nesting birds, during prey studies, is quite high particularly in males (16/29)

I am not sure which part of the range you are getting weather data from but is it actually where Royals are found? Some of the more heavily populated areas see averages during the rain season of 73-82ºF and 75-88ºF for the dry season. The typical ambient temperature range of 74-85ºF aligns with the field data. Can they manage outside this , yes clearly. I actually believe that many choose to keep hot spots warmer than needed, myself I am never over 90ºF and usually below.

Information does change all the time, old beliefs should be replaced by new ones.

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Originally Posted by bondo

Balls don't live only in Ghana. So they heat the whole enclosure at 80 then? I never said the hot side should be 75.

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An ambient is the whole enclosure. A heat pad/tape does not heat up the air temperature at all. And like you originally stated keeping balls in the high 60's is a no-no to me. Im sorry but this is going to lead to problems with others if they read this. I stuck by 82/91 when I had a quite large collection a few years back and never had an issue ever.

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Originally Posted by bondo

Balls don't live only in Ghana.

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Correct. While their range spreads pretty much from Senegal to Uganda, a great majority of imports come from Ghana (EB Noah). I'm sure that's one of the reasons that caresheets tend to align with the temperature range of that region of Africa, rather than further east as you referenced.

Khartoum, Sudan

The warm season lasts from April 8 to July 2 with an average daily high temperature above 103°F. The hottest day of the year is May 29, with an average high of 107°F and low of 84°F.

The cold season lasts from December 14 to January 31 with an average daily high temperature below 89°F. The coldest day of the year is January 12, with an average low of 63°F and high of 85°F.

Yaoundé, Cameroon

The warm season lasts from January 23 to April 4 with an average daily high temperature above 85°F. The hottest day of the year is February 8, with an average high of 87°F and low of 69°F.

The cold season lasts from June 26 to August 31 with an average daily high temperature below 80°F. The coldest day of the year is January 2, with an average low of 67°F and high of 84°F.

Tambacounda, Senegal

The warm season lasts from March 11 to May 29 with an average daily high temperature above 102°F. The hottest day of the year is April 26, with an average high of 106°F and low of 80°F.

The cold season lasts from July 10 to September 25 with an average daily high temperature below 92°F. The coldest day of the year is January 10, with an average low of 65°F and high of 92°F.

Bangui, Central African Republic

The warm season lasts from January 23 to March 18 with an average daily high temperature above 93°F. The hottest day of the year is February 9, with an average high of 94°F and low of 69°F.

The cold season lasts from June 20 to August 27 with an average daily high temperature below 87°F. The coldest day of the year is January 3, with an average low of 65°F and high of 91°F.

I would like to add that if you move off the coast and go north in Ghana you will find lows close to most of these.

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Originally Posted by bondo

Khartoum, Sudan

The warm season lasts from April 8 to July 2 with an average daily high temperature above 103°F. The hottest day of the year is May 29, with an average high of 107°F and low of 84°F.

The cold season lasts from December 14 to January 31 with an average daily high temperature below 89°F. The coldest day of the year is January 12, with an average low of 63°F and high of 85°F.

Yaoundé, Cameroon

The warm season lasts from January 23 to April 4 with an average daily high temperature above 85°F. The hottest day of the year is February 8, with an average high of 87°F and low of 69°F.

The cold season lasts from June 26 to August 31 with an average daily high temperature below 80°F. The coldest day of the year is January 2, with an average low of 67°F and high of 84°F.

Tambacounda, Senegal

The warm season lasts from March 11 to May 29 with an average daily high temperature above 102°F. The hottest day of the year is April 26, with an average high of 106°F and low of 80°F.

The cold season lasts from July 10 to September 25 with an average daily high temperature below 92°F. The coldest day of the year is January 10, with an average low of 65°F and high of 92°F.

Bangui, Central African Republic

The warm season lasts from January 23 to March 18 with an average daily high temperature above 93°F. The hottest day of the year is February 9, with an average high of 94°F and low of 69°F.

The cold season lasts from June 20 to August 27 with an average daily high temperature below 87°F. The coldest day of the year is January 3, with an average low of 65°F and high of 91°F.

I would like to add that if you move off the coast and go north in Ghana you will find lows close to most of these.

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My last rant I swear.

1. The ground stays warmer at night, those termite mounds are deep.
2. Just because the lows can hit the low 70s during some seasons I don't see why the snakes have to be subjected to those temperatures year round. So corn snakes are found in Maryland. The lows there are 30-40 degrees in the winter. Am I going to keep a corn at 40 degrees ambient?
3. I'm content with my lows in the low 80's like most folks on here are [emoji16]

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Originally Posted by bondo

Khartoum, Sudan ... Yaoundé, Cameroon ... Tambacounda, Senegal ... Bangui, Central African Republic

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Yes, those are all cities in Africa. ;) Yes, BPs can tolerate a range of temperatures. :) Yes, there are temperatures within that range that serve as a good starting point for less experienced keepers (those folks that will be looking for a caresheet). :gj: Yes, that is the reason that those caresheets recommend those temperatures. :D No, I won't be changing my temperature recommendations to align with the full range of temperatures that they may be exposed to in every part of their natural range. :cool:

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Originally Posted by 8_Ball

My last rant I swear.

1. The ground stays warmer at night, those termite mounds are deep.
2. Just because the lows can hit the low 70s during some seasons I don't see why the snakes have to be subjected to those temperatures year round. So corn snakes are found in Maryland. The lows there are 30-40 degrees in the winter. Am I going to keep a corn at 40 degrees ambient?
3. I'm content with my lows in the low 80's like most folks on here are [emoji16]

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1.So they stay underground during the night and hunt in the day?
2.Just because the lows only go down to the 60s I don't see why our lows would be in the 80s. Colubrids are totally different.
3.To each their own we will agree to disagree.

Don't get me wrong I am not ranting. However there is more then just caresheets to think about. They are old and outdated and people need to think about the whole picture. You say it is impossible to keep a healthy ball python with an ambient less then 75. Yet mine are high 60s to low 70s. I have about 100 ball pythons and have hatched I don't know how many 100s of snakes. A ball python won't get ri with a hot spot and these ambient temps. Again they self regulate. They know what they need and can take care of their needs better then we can.

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Originally Posted by bondo

1.So they stay underground during the night and hunt in the day?
2.Just because the lows only go down to the 60s I don't see why our lows would be in the 80s. Colubrids are totally different.
3.To each their own we will agree to disagree.

Don't get me wrong I am not ranting. However there is more then just caresheets to think about. They are old and outdated and people need to think about the whole picture. You say it is impossible to keep a healthy ball python with an ambient less then 75. Yet mine are high 60s to low 70s. I have about 100 ball pythons and have hatched I don't know how many 100s of snakes. A ball python won't get ri with a hot spot and these ambient temps. Again they self regulate. They know what they need and can take care of their needs better then we can.

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Ok cool that is fine for you. I will not be keeping my snake at the EXTREAMS of their natural temp range (69-74 and 98-106 degrees.) I will try to keep them comfortable in the middle and what is suggested. Just don't tell me my snake is "suffering" in a previous thread because he is kept at 81-83/90-91 which is usually reccomended [emoji6]

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Originally Posted by 8_Ball

Ok cool that is fine for you. I will not be keeping my snake at the EXTREAMS of their natural temp range (69-74 and 98-106 degrees.) I will try to keep them comfortable in the middle and what is suggested. Just don't tell me my snake is "suffering" in a previous thread because he is kept at 81-83/90-91 which is usually reccomended [emoji6]

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Your snake has a problem and you won't try to change things to help it. Seems like you are allowing it to suffer.

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Originally Posted by bondo

Your snake has a problem and you won't try to change things to help it. Seems like you are allowing it to suffer.

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I won't allow my snake to be uncomfortable, sorry. He eats every 5 days, sheds perfect, and is healthy otherwise. Maybe he's just too fat or its just wrinkles from being curled up. I don't know but water makes it go away it seems. That's my question. It could be too dry. Temperature is not a problem trust me. He spends most time on the warm side so he can't be too warm.. like you said he would seek out what he needs [emoji6] if they want to be cooler he would seek out a cooler spot so obviously he's not too warm. So he's not suffering temperature wise.

Bondo, you really don't have to post a rant and say everyone else is wrong and "cooking" their snakes just to justify in your own mind not wanting to spend money on electricity.

I keep 'em in the 80s and they eat, poop and breed too.

"Their natural environment matters! It's in the high 60s for one day a year in selected cities in Africa above ground, so we should make it that cold 365 days a year! Anyone who does differently is "cooking" their snakes! But don't do it though, because y'all inexperienced noobs! I'm experienced and therefore my snakes automatically adjust their biology to want extreme temperatures! Therefore it's better! Hey, I have a hundred snakes, m'kay? A HUNDRED!!!"

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Originally Posted by hungba

Bondo, you really don't have to post a rant and say everyone else is wrong and "cooking" their snakes just to justify in your own mind not wanting to spend money on electricity.

I keep 'em in the 80s and they eat, poop and breed too.

"Their natural environment matters! It's in the high 60s for one day a year in selected cities in Africa above ground, so we should make it that cold 365 days a year! Anyone who does differently is "cooking" their snakes! But don't do it though, because y'all inexperienced noobs! I'm experienced and therefore my snakes automatically adjust their biology to want extreme temperatures! Therefore it's better! Hey, I have a hundred snakes, m'kay? A HUNDRED!!!"

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Those were average lows for the year. Not one day but 365. I have no idea what the last sentence means. I never said you were all noobs. Try reading the whole thing again. I said no one is willing to look at all the info and deviate from the care sheets. You are proving my point very well. I also said if it works for you then so be it. You are picking parts out of what I said and trying to twist it.

Well you must be right because you have a hundred snakes that all eat, crap and breed, and I only have 99 snakes that eat crap and breed. Therefore I must be "cooking" my snakes and wrong. But of course, "if it works for me then so be it", even though I'm "cooking my snakes".

And these responses are all because I'm just blindly following care sheets, even though I agree about the kiln dried pine usage for snakes, was the one to talk about using biosponge for substrate when I kept pacmans, keep humidity in the air up instead of using moist substrate for my tegus. I didn't tell them at the tegu forum they were "drowning their lizards" in substrate, but if it works for them keep doing it, though. Maybe I should go back and "rant but not ranting". Oops, better not. I only have 99 snakes not 100. And I have only kept snakes since 2006, so that's 9 years not 10. So I am a great example of someone who blindly follows care sheets. YOU GOT ME NOW! Red handed!

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Originally Posted by hungba

Well you must be right because you have a hundred snakes that all eat, crap and breed, and I only have 99 snakes that eat crap and breed. Therefore I must be "cooking" my snakes and wrong. But of course, "if it works for me then so be it", even though I'm "cooking my snakes".

And these responses are all because I'm just blindly following care sheets, even though I agree about the kiln dried pine usage for snakes, was the one to talk about using biosponge for substrate when I kept pacmans, keep humidity in the air up instead of using moist substrate for my tegus. I didn't tell them at the tegu forum they were "drowning their lizards" in substrate, but if it works for them keep doing it, though. Maybe I should go back and "rant but not ranting". Oops, better not. I only have 99 snakes not 100. And I have only kept snakes since 2006, so that's 9 years not 10. So I am a great example of someone who blindly follows care sheets. YOU GOT ME NOW! Red handed!

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Ummmmm ok not sure how to respond to that. You just keep saying things and try to link me to your statements. Here is a sentence early on in this. Like I said if they follow the care sheet they should have no issues for keeping their snake in good shape. Now what else would you like to make up. Maybe I kick puppies or I like to sniff glue? Not sure what your deal is. Apparently open discussion is not allowed in your mind.

By the way, to the rest of the forum, I am by no means saying that you should or should not keep your snakes at ambient high 60s. Maybe it works, I have no idea one way or the other as I have never kept my ball pythons under 75 ambient. I blindly followed advice from breeders with 101 snakes or more.

I'm just irked that he says we're "cooking our snakes" and blindly following care sheets, instead of blindly following him (which is ok of course because if it works for me it's ok to cook my snakes). As many of you know, I live in Hong Kong where people eat snakes. Maybe I should start a business. And before someone gets smart, no, we don't eat cats and dogs.

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Originally Posted by hungba

By the way, to the rest of the forum, I am by no means saying that you should or should not keep your snakes at ambient high 60s. Maybe it works, I have no idea one way or the other as I have never kept my ball pythons under 75 ambient. I blindly followed advice from breeders with 101 snakes or more.

I'm just irked that he says we're "cooking our snakes" and blindly following care sheets, instead of blindly following him (which is ok of course because if it works for me it's ok to cook my snakes). As many of you know, I live in Hong Kong where people eat snakes. Maybe I should start a business. And before someone gets smart, no, we don't eat cats and dogs.

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Where are you coming up with this? Are the words coming up differently on your screen. Weird this is like talking to my wall. :rolleye2: The cooking statement was referring to breeding. Hot temps equal poor breeding. It effects the sperm and the egg production.

My snakes must not be ball pythons then because they breed just fine. Locks within the first night introduced. No slugs at all.

Claiming an average highs and lows is a poor measure of actual temperature. I would agree Royals can manage low 70s for a few days with not too many issues and as hot as 100ºF for short periods of time too. Look at the seasonal average temps not the average of the hottest and coolest days. Like you not understanding humidity this too demonstrates a poor understanding. Your arguments are sound but based upon the average of the very hottest and coolest temps of a given location.

It is like me saying the average temperature in Tampa florida for April is 63ºF. It is the average low not the average. they represent the average of the lowest recorded temps not the normal temps at all. The average normal temp is closer to 73ºF, 10 degrees different from the average of the lowest temps.

http://www.weather.com/weather/tenda...+USFL0481:1:US

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Originally Posted by Deborah

I NEVER recommend what I do, reason being it would not be optimal for a new owner and would not help troubleshooting their issues.

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This right here.
What works in my house might not work in yours.

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Originally Posted by bondo

You brought the dogs up so I spun it back to you. I DID answer the question of benefits it is their natural temps. All reptiles need a way to regulate their temps. With 80 ambient and 90+ hot they can only do so much. If you ever wanted to breed you would have a very tough time at those temps. The reason why is because those temps are hotter then they are use to. Otherwise they would breed ovulate and have very few slugs at those temps. However that doesn't happen at those temps because they are getting cooked.

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Originally Posted by bondo

YOU brought up the dogs. Wow. Ball pythons originate from Africa yet their natural temps don't matter. That makes sense.

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On this note, I have one question: How many of you are keeping IMPORTED balls?

The burden we have taken to keep these animals is not a straight cookie cutting. However I would say 99.9% of these animals are captive bred and only use to the climate we provide for them. Humans and animals can and will adapt to their surroundings as long as they are reasonable.

Yes, they originated from Africa BUT the only natural temperature they know is 88.9 degrees while they were cooking in my incubator. LoL

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Originally Posted by bondo

...I said no one is willing to look at all the info and deviate from the care sheets. You are proving my point very well.....

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Originally Posted by bondo

... Like I said if they follow the care sheet they should have no issues for keeping their snake in good shape. ....

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Here's the problem with this discussion. Your "vent" is an unwillingness of "everyone" to not deviate from care sheets. But at the same time, you defend care sheets by saying if folks follow them, they should be fine. So why the vent?

We're here to help beginners (primarily) learn how to care for their animals. It's hard enough getting folks in general to grasp the basics of animal husbandry. It would be impossible if we tried to explain every possible option available and customize our advice on each individual's ability (or lack of ability) to read their snakes and understand whether or not the animal is under duress or getting sick.

You get frustrated that "no one" is willing to deviate....but it's obvious from this discussion and the few who have participated, that LOTS of people are willing to deviate...once they get a solid understanding of their own animals and personal circumstances. We just don't recommend all these different methods and customizations for the very reason I just stated above.

Sure, in some threads, individuals may seem to get on a soapbox about following care sheet steps "or else"...but they may still be new themselves and not understand the flexibility of ball python husbandry, and/or they may understand that they are talking to someone who is completely new and should really be starting with the simplest and most risk-free methods for keeping them.

I DO think keeping ambients in the 60's is far too low. You go on and on about temperatures where they are from, but nowhere in all that data do I see them living 24/7, 365 days a year in temperatures that you describe as "proper." At best, maybe a few weeks out of the year...at the very most.

I don't keep tons of snakes myself, but I've had the privilege of visiting many of the largest breeders in our country. Not a single one of them keeps their ambient temperatures below 78 degrees, although some (but not all) give the snakes a cooling period for breeding purposes and drop the ambients down to around 73-74. Nothing extreme. Most of the time, the temperatures in those ball python rooms are around 80 degrees. These are people that have been keeping and breeding TENS OF THOUSANDS of snakes for DECADES. Never heard a single one of them suggest they should ever be kept at temps below 70.

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Originally Posted by JLC

I DO think keeping ambients in the 60's is far too low. You go on and on about temperatures where they are from, but nowhere in all that data do I see them living 24/7, 365 days a year in temperatures that you describe as "proper." At best, maybe a few weeks out of the year...at the very most.

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Just want to say one more thing...

If your methods are working for you....then fine! I have no problem with folks doing their own thing, so long as their animals remain healthy and content to the best of our abilities. BUT...if you advocate YOUR methods that are so far out of the box, especially when talking to beginning keepers, you WILL get push back, for all the reasons I stated above...and those reasons have nothing to do with some mindless, dogmatic adherence to any specific care sheet, even the one I wrote for this site.

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Originally Posted by bondo

Khartoum, Sudan

The warm season lasts from April 8 to July 2 with an average daily high temperature above 103°F. The hottest day of the year is May 29, with an average high of 107°F and low of 84°F.

The cold season lasts from December 14 to January 31 with an average daily high temperature below 89°F. The coldest day of the year is January 12, with an average low of 63°F and high of 85°F.

Yaoundé, Cameroon

The warm season lasts from January 23 to April 4 with an average daily high temperature above 85°F. The hottest day of the year is February 8, with an average high of 87°F and low of 69°F.

The cold season lasts from June 26 to August 31 with an average daily high temperature below 80°F. The coldest day of the year is January 2, with an average low of 67°F and high of 84°F.

Tambacounda, Senegal

The warm season lasts from March 11 to May 29 with an average daily high temperature above 102°F. The hottest day of the year is April 26, with an average high of 106°F and low of 80°F.

The cold season lasts from July 10 to September 25 with an average daily high temperature below 92°F. The coldest day of the year is January 10, with an average low of 65°F and high of 92°F.

Bangui, Central African Republic

The warm season lasts from January 23 to March 18 with an average daily high temperature above 93°F. The hottest day of the year is February 9, with an average high of 94°F and low of 69°F.

The cold season lasts from June 20 to August 27 with an average daily high temperature below 87°F. The coldest day of the year is January 3, with an average low of 65°F and high of 91°F.

I would like to add that if you move off the coast and go north in Ghana you will find lows close to most of these.

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Quick question. You seem to be referencing their natural habitat quite a bit, while I don't own a BP I personally try to replicate the natural habitiat of the reptiles I keep, that being said what type of enclosure are all of your BP's in?

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Originally Posted by JLC

Here's the problem with this discussion. Your "vent" is an unwillingness of "everyone" to not deviate from care sheets. But at the same time, you defend care sheets by saying if folks follow them, they should be fine. So why the vent?

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The vent is people saying you can't deviate from the care sheets. That is what I have been saying all along. I said keeping snakes like the care sheet says will be fine for your snake. However people need to know you can deviate from it. I am just tired of people saying an ambient of 75 will kill the snakes. I am tired of people saying you can't incubate at 85. I am tired of people saying you have to have a day/night cycle. It has been proven many many many times over that it is not detrimental to keep balls like this. Yet as you can see some are stuck on the care sheets and will not even consider anything else. I still feel 80 ambient and a day/night cycle are not the healthiest way to keep balls. I however said they will do fine also. It has been proven they do fine both ways. I do not recommend new people keeping an ambient in the high 60s. However when I was running that cold I had balls on the cold side. The girls did great in those temps I had very few slugs. My new house is insulated very well and I don't get that cold anymore and my slug numbers went up. The snakes know what they need better then any of us.

You can incubate cooler than 89, just takes longer to hatch.
You can also speed it up going warmer.
I use what works for me and many others.

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Originally Posted by bondo

I am just tired of people saying ...

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Well, good luck getting anyone to say what you want how you want them to say it. I've been trying for over ten years and haven't made any progress. Thing is...as soon as you convince one person to be more flexible on an idea, someone else new joins up with the same old inflexibility...on ANY topic, not just BP husbandry.

You'll see whatever you choose to focus on. There are plenty of folks here who advocate for flexibility on husbandry methods, while at the same time, coaxing beginners with the simplest "tried-and-true" methods. But if you focus on the stuff that irritates you, then it will seem like that's all that anyone is doing.

Sometimes, it really, really feels to me like all anyone ever does here is complain about everyone else. Of course that isn't true...but if the center of your back itches and you can't reach it...all of a sudden, it's the only thing you can focus on, even though the rest of your body feels perfectly fine. There's always something going on that we don't like. We can choose to focus all our attention on it...or we can choose to focus on the positive side of things that is ALSO always there. And we can also choose to be a part of the solution to our irritants, or we can choose to complain about them and hope someone else figures out how to fix them.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Claiming an average highs and lows is a poor measure of actual temperature. I would agree Royals can manage low 70s for a few days with not too many issues and as hot as 100ºF for short periods of time too. Look at the seasonal average temps not the average of the hottest and coolest days. Like you not understanding humidity this too demonstrates a poor understanding. Your arguments are sound but based upon the average of the very hottest and coolest temps of a given location.

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So data should not be based on averages? what should it be based on? This is the average for Bangui.

Bangui, Central African Republic

The warm season lasts from January 23 to March 18 with an average daily high temperature above 93°F. The hottest day of the year is February 9, with an average high of 94°F and low of 69°F.

The cold season lasts from June 20 to August 27 with an average daily high temperature below 87°F. The coldest day of the year is January 3, with an average low of 65°F and high of 91°F.

The hottest day average low is 69 and the coldest is 65. That would put the average low for the entire year at 67. Yaoundé, Cameroon average low for the year is 68. The average low for the year in Khartoum, Sudan is 73.5. The average low for the entire year in Tambacounda, Senegal is 72.5. I know what you are going to say. Well those are the low averages you need to average them with the highs. That would be true if they only came out during dusk or dawn only. If they go out at night though the lows are what to look at. It gets in the 90s and 100s during the days in some of these places but they stay put under the ground in these temps for the most part.

I do understand humidity. Your argument though is based on how humidity works in general. We are talking about a tank. When the humidity in the air is less then what you are trying to maintain it isn't so cut and dry. How much water surface is in the tank? How much misting is going on? Is the top covered fully, partially, or nothing at all. You can't debate something without all the info.