Hungry and afraid!

Hi guys...i recently posted a thread about my youngster not eating. Today was his 3 missed feeding in a row! He is 8 months old and 230gr and he seems hungry but is acting afraid of the frozen rat. This time i tried 3 different sizes and nothing!

It's the only one of my snakes and the first time that happened to me...i don't know what to do...he seems so thin (he is 2 feet long)

what should i try? i mean...won't he be afraid of the live one if i finally give in and give him a live rat?

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Originally Posted by rubberduck

won't he be afraid of the live one if i finally give in and give him a live rat?

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No. He's programmed through tens of millions of years of evolution to eat small rodents and birds. If you do decide to try live, he'll know exactly what to do with it provided it's an appropriate size.

As far as why he's not eating. Have you doublechecked your environment? Temps, humidity...make sure there are enough hides. It's possible something changed and is stressing him or irritating him.

How big is the food you are offering? It's possible he wants something smaller. I have a few who definitely prefer smaller meals and will not eat larger offerings.

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Originally Posted by 200xth

No. He's programmed through tens of millions of years of evolution to eat small rodents and birds. If you do decide to try live, he'll know exactly what to do with it.

As far as why he's not eating. Have you doublechecked your environment? Temps, humidity...make sure there are enough hides. It's possible something changed and is stressing him or irritating him.

How big is the food you are offering? It's possible he wants something smaller. I have a few who definitely prefer smaller meals and will not eat larger offerings.

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i really don't know why he's so afraid...he started off clockwise with me...the only thing that changed is that the rats are light grey...but i also tried 2 smaller sizes than what he normally eats...he gets spooked when i get the rat near him (without touching him)

i even changed his substrate back to mulch last week in case the corrugated paper was stressing him. He is the only one that is so spooked...i'm really disappointed

Temps are fine...90 to 82 with 78-80 ambient. humidity is great too (have a pvc cage).

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Originally Posted by rubberduck

i really don't know why he's so afraid...he started off clockwise with me...the only thing that changed is that the rats are light grey...but i also tried 2 smaller sizes than what he normally eats...he gets spooked when i get the rat near him (without touching him)

i even changed his substrate back to mulch last week in case the corrugated paper was stressing him. He is the only one that is so spooked...i'm really disappointed

Temps are fine...90 to 82 with 78-80 ambient. humidity is great too (have a pvc cage).

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Have you tried just leaving the rat in the enclosure overnight?

I have a couple who only like to eat in the middle of the night. They won't come out of their hides when it's feeding time, so I just leave it on their hide, and next morning it's gone.

well after the first month he would only eat it overnight. So that's what i always did with him. I try in case he strikes and then just leave it there.

the last 3 feedings just left me with a smelly rat in the morning :(

It's just three feedings. Ball pythons are like that. Skip a week and see what happens. Go back to old colored rat and give him a secure hide.

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Originally Posted by hungba

It's just three feedings. Ball pythons are like that. Skip a week and see what happens. Go back to old colored rat and give him a secure hide.

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It's not about the missed feedings...i had the feeling that every week i had a weaker feeding response and now i ended up not getting him to eat anything. And as i said he looks very thin...and i just don't get it why he wouldn't eat since he is searching every day for food. ofcourse i only try to feed him in feeding days but still.

He started with pups and then weaned and they were all white...now i got these which are a bit darker but not black. And I don't know where i can find live rats in the right size for him. :((

and i'm freaking afraid that a live rat would hurt him :(

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Originally Posted by rubberduck

and i'm freaking afraid that a live rat would hurt him :(

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Just make sure it's appropriately sized. Get one on the smaller side if you want. At 230g a rat pup will be fine.

Don't starve the rat, don't dehydrate it, don't do things like smack it to make it dizzy. Just take it, put it in the enclosure. Your snake will do the rest.

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Originally Posted by 200xth

Just make sure it's appropriately sized. Get one on the smaller side if you want. At 230g a rat pup will be fine.

Don't starve the rat, don't dehydrate it, don't do things like smack it to make it dizzy. Just take it, put it in the enclosure. Your snake will do the rest.

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in germany i thing it's illegal to sell baby animals so it's not that easy. but even if he does eat a live i have a feeling it will make it harder to eat f/t right? or will it make him a more aggressive feeder?

Babies in my experience rarely refuse meals. It is also odd of a baby not to accept next to anything feeder wise live of F/T. I don't think that is the issue, I would look to the husbandry more closely.

Can you describe exactly how and where you are taking the temps. What the heating sources are and where they are?

Maybe there is some other reason why the little fellow is refusing.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Babies in my experience rarely refuse meals. It is also odd of a baby not to accept next to anything feeder wise live of F/T. I don't think that is the issue, I would look to the husbandry more closely.

Can you describe exactly how and where you are taking the temps. What the heating sources are and where they are?

Maybe there is some other reason why the little fellow is refusing.

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In my experience too...some are not trash bins but at least always eat! He is housed in something like this (which i think is brilliant for temperatures).It's approx 3x2x1 (a bit less than that 1x0,6x0,3m). It is working with heatpads a bit smaller than the half on the roof (but you also have the heatpad from the compartment under it) so it's like every compartment is heated with belly heat and from above. I have a dimming thermostat who is controlling all 4 heat set at 88. My laser gun is giving me readings of 88 on top of the mulch and 90-92 on top of the pvc (above the heatpad). I have digital thermometers/hygrometers on the wall but check the temps every couple of days.

I used to have him in a glass cage a bit smaller but i had problems with the temps and the humidity. Every compartment is crammed with 2 identical hides (in his case the medium exo terra), a log, some thin branches for climbing and big pieces of cork bark). I had him on coco and then changed to corrugated paper. He ate for a couple of times but then stopped so i thought i would try mulch (his breeder had him in a rack with aspen).


I handle him once or twice a week for a couple of minutes (he doesn't seem too mind that much nor is he squirmy). He spends 90% of the time in his warm hide and cruises every night his cage. No other snake has any problems...it's just him. I check on him and don't see any signs of RI or other medical issues; he's whiter than ever and had a perfect shed 6 days ago).

http://wma-terraconcept.de/images/au...Terrarack3.jpg

You are worrying too much and trying too many different things too often. This often makes them LESS willing to eat. Unless there is any visible sign of illness (slightly thin doesn't count), just leave it alone (no handling for now), skip a week, and try again the way you did it when he was eating (same colored rats etc. Yes, go buy some.)

It is good that you care for your snake so much. But sometimes too much compunds the problem.

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Originally Posted by hungba

You are worrying too much and trying too many different things too often. This often makes them LESS willing to eat. Unless there is any visible sign of illness (slightly thin doesn't count), just leave it alone (no handling for now), skip a week, and try again the way you did it when he was eating (same colored rats etc. Yes, go buy some.)

It is good that you care for your snake so much. But sometimes too much compunds the problem.

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maybe it's my lack of experience with feeding problems but i really want to see him thrive. I'm not a breeder and will never be. I just want to care for my pets the best way. As i said what really bothers me is not the waisted rats or the missed feedings. It's the problem behind it, which has to do with me probably. I'm doing something wrong and i can't seem to realize what it is.

at his age and this weight and at this time of the year i don't think there's a reason why he wouldn't eat if it wasn't for something that bothers him.

So i called everyone and in Germany is indeed strongly forbidden to sell baby animals. I think i have to keep trying with frozen. :(

Your worrying your self for what seems like normal behavior... balls go off feed randomly for no reason at all for random periods of time... all your husbendry seems on point, just have some patience and relax, when hes ready to eat again he will

There is no set time frame for when ball pythons should be eating or when they should go off feed, especially in captivity they can eat one week go off feed the next 2 and eat again on the 4th, just have some patience with the little guy

I've been trying to tell you what you are doing wrong, as it is obvious. It seems you are not listening.

Here is what you can do that will have the highest chance of getting him to eat again as soon ad possible, in easy 1,2,3 steps:

1) Don't try anything. Don't try live, don't change substrates, don't call everyone in Germany, don't handle him, don't dip stuff in chicken broth or tuna juice... DON'T DO ANYTHING! Just minimal cleaning and water changes, and leave the poor snake alone.
2) Skip a feeding, DO NOT EVEN TRY TO FEED HIM. Then the next week, offer food the way you did before, same color/size prey when he was eating.
3)If he doesn't eat, repeat.

If you follow these steps, maybe your snake will eat again. If you don't, he most likely won't. This is because it seems from your posts that there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with your snake.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hungba

I've been trying to tell you what you are doing wrong, as it is obvious. It seems you are not listening.

Here is what you can do that will have the highest chance of getting him to eat again as soon ad possible, in easy 1,2,3 steps:

1) Don't try anything. Don't try live, don't change substrates, don't call everyone in Germany, don't handle him, don't dip stuff in chicken broth or tuna juice... DON'T DO ANYTHING! Just minimal cleaning and water changes, and leave the poor snake alone.
2) Skip a feeding, DO NOT EVEN TRY TO FEED HIM. Then the next week, offer food the way you did before, same color/size prey when he was eating.
3)If he doesn't eat, repeat.

If you follow these steps, maybe your snake will eat again. If you don't, he most likely won't. This is because it seems from your posts that there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with your snake.

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I'm listening and I'm grateful for any input. really :)

I wish i was less paranoid and not blaming myself.

BPs are often nutcases. Totally normal. I agree to stop trying to change so much and just let him be. Maintain appropriate conditions and have plenty of water available. He will go back on feed when he is ready.

I love BPs but these issues are what drove me to focus on boas the last couple years. Evolution will kick in and your guy will pound down a rat soon. Try to stay calm.

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Originally Posted by JoshSloane

BPs are often nutcases. Totally normal. I agree to stop trying to change so much and just let him be. Maintain appropriate conditions and have plenty of water available. He will go back on feed when he is ready.

I love BPs but these issues are what drove me to focus on boas the last couple years. Evolution will kick in and your guy will pound down a rat soon. Try to stay calm.

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I was thinking about a boa too. But i could never give up on my ball pythons.

Probably he is a nutcase, but i'm freaking out because it's the first time that i experienced something like this. Plus i would love to see him grow and thrive.

He will eat again, don't worry. Just give him a breather.

Once he has had a break there is a whole litany of thigs you can try. But for now just relax.

It sounds like your temps are good. I would never suggest trying a new prey or new form of a prey to a royal they tend to imprint and will not sway from that. I would suggest this. Turn off his light for 7 days, cover the front of the enclosure with a cloth also for 7 days, don't do anything but peek in during the day and see if spot cleaning is needed. If you use paper I might suggest a temporary switch to particle substrate so you can spot clean and not need to replace everything. Makes sure that he isn't going to shed. and if there is no shed sign after 7 days try this.

After sunset place a thawed rodent (what every you have been feeding) out beside the vents or door crack for at least 20 min. If your snake is not out interested toss that one and wait for a further 5 days. If he is make sure to heat the rodent (I use a hair dryer) up I personally measure the temp and make sure it is warm, 37ºC is normal excited rat body temps this is what I use. Then feed.

It is odd for a little one to refuse, since your temps are good, (what was the air temp?) it is likely the issue is stress, as many have guessed.

In the classes on animal care I did for work, they used a term that applies here, 'skillful neglect' sometimes the best thing you can do is to do nothing.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

It sounds like your temps are good. I would never suggest trying a new prey or new form of a prey to a royal they tend to imprint and will not sway from that. I would suggest this. Turn off his light for 7 days, cover the front of the enclosure with a cloth also for 7 days, don't do anything but peek in during the day and see if spot cleaning is needed. If you use paper I might suggest a temporary switch to particle substrate so you can spot clean and not need to replace everything. Makes sure that he isn't going to shed. and if there is no shed sign after 7 days try this.

After sunset place a thawed rodent (what every you have been feeding) out beside the vents or door crack for at least 20 min. If your snake is not out interested toss that one and wait for a further 5 days. If he is make sure to heat the rodent (I use a hair dryer) up I personally measure the temp and make sure it is warm, 37ºC is normal excited rat body temps this is what I use. Then feed.

It is odd for a little one to refuse, since your temps are good, (what was the air temp?) it is likely the issue is stress, as many have guessed.

In the classes on animal care I did for work, they used a term that applies here, 'skillful neglect' sometimes the best thing you can do is to do nothing.

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Thanks for the input. Well that is exactly what i'm doing...thawing the rats 3 feet away from the enclosure for a couple of hours having only a ir red lamp on and warming them up with a hair dryer at around 23:00. 100 degrees and then give it a go. I usually start with the roommates under him which need 1-2 seconds before grabbing the rats and start constricting. If it's stress i really don't know why...haven't been handling him more than a few times since i got him because i wanted to establish a good feeding response and never scared him or hurt him (at least that i know of). Also i live alone and am away working or sleeping almost 20hours a day, so i'm already "skillfully neglecting" him.

My ambients are around 78...but as i said the heat pad under the pvc is almost half the floor of every compartment so is getting enough heat from it. He still has a lot of hiding places in the cold side.

I will try your suggestions although i think it's pretty disappointing that i'm not able to hold him or behave normal to him. I mean i want to do what's best for him but i would really like to have him behaving like my other bps. And I'm leaving for 10 days next week and already feel bad for leaving him hungry (that is if he doesn't eat next week)

:/