Odd night behavior in BP? Help please!!

http://youtu.be/5GIsTecFw_s
[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)]Hi guys, I need some advice and opinions on the behavior of my BP at night. She's about 1-2 years old, pinstripe morph and aside from the weird behavior at night, she acts totally normal...literally. She sleeps and hides all day then comes out when the sun goes down and does this weird thing. I've read about IBD and of course have gotten myself all nervous and paranoid about it so here goes: I've had her for three weeks [/COLOR]this Saturday (4/18)[COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.701961)] and she's done this almost every night. The only times she doesn't do it is the first night or two after she eats. She gets a good sized live rat every Wednesday and has not refused feed. She has normal bowel movements and urates. Currently she's in a 15gal tank with a large hide over on the warm side and a nice tight log to sit in on the cool side with a large stone dish of water. The temp on the warm side under her hide is 90 degrees while the cool side stays about 79-80. The humidity is about 55% but I've been raising it slowly since she's been showing signs of shedding. However this weird behavior, as I said, only happens at night. And if I take her out and hold her for a few minutes, then put her back in the tank, she'll stop the weird movements. I've tried holding her tail to see how her muscle density is and it seems fine. I've put her on her back and she quickly rights herself with no problem at all. Again, totally normal behavior except when she's alone in her tank at night. I'll post a video to see what you all think. Is she just looking for a way out of her tank? Or is this possibly something worse?? Any and all advice is welcome!! Thanks in advance![/COLOR]

Looks like a spider wobble.

Can you post a picture of her head so we can be sure she doesn't have any spider in her? My best guess would be that she's a misidentified spinner, but from what I can see of her head and neck I don't think so. I don't think this points to any kind of health issue, though. It is weird to see something that doesn't traditionally wobble showing that behavior, but I don't know if it's anything besides just weird.

Have you treated for mites lately? Switched to a new disinfectant or cleaner lately?

It has the ear marks of poisoning or a neurological disorder. HOWEVER it could also just be odd royal things one of mine likes to try to balance on his door top and will fall, he then starts all over again.

If you are certain there is not poisoning possible (that includes flea treatments esp pyrethroids) it could be nothing at all or even OCD it happens sometimes in captive animals. If you can rule out the other things you could try some enrichment, I use a ping pong ball just rub it on something different, like your car seat and transfer it to the enclosure. New object new smells mine often investigate them. After a few days I remove it and add something else.

I have checked her for mites and the reptile store I bought her from did a preventative treatment for mites before I even brought her home, so she's clear on the mites. I have two reptile carpets that I switch out weekly or whenever she soils it and I simply wash the dirty one by hand with a little dawn soap and hot water. I rinse it really thoroughly too. Like rinsed to the point where I would feel comfortable eating off it! Haha And like I said, she's done this since the first night I had her. I'll try to post a pic as soon as I figure out how haha :) I'm new on here! Still figuring everything out!

Does look an awful lot like the spider corkscrew/wobble. Daigga may be onto something if it's indeed a Spinner and not a Pin. Interesting

Here's a pic, hope it works! If not, I have uploaded pictures of her on my profile so you can see the pics there for sure. http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/show...hp?i=50914&c=3

She kinda looks like a mix of a pinstripe and a spider to me

Ah here we go ]http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...1259_thumb.jpg

So you guys think it's a no on the IBD? I feel like she would be showing other and more frequent/severe symptoms if it were something serious...

Well there's no spider there, so I'm stumped. Sounds like her husbandry is on point, does she have any problems eating or is she pretty regular? If everything is good except the head wobbles I wouldn't be overly worried, but then I don't know a whole lot about what would cause random wobble-like behavior.

She's a champion eater! Takes down an adult rat no problem, usually within seconds after I've dropped it in her tank. So no problems there, thankfully.

Thanks everyone for your feedback! I always welcome more :) I love my snake very much so I want to make sure she's tip-top shape. Feel free to private message me if you want to come off the thread. I'd love to make some new snakey-loving friends! Thanks again -Rae

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Originally Posted by RaeDee

I have checked her for mites and the reptile store I bought her from did a preventative treatment for mites before I even brought her home

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I would be quite concerned about poisoning. Mite treatments are toxic and cause neurological issues very similar to what you have in your video. I would suggest a 20 min soak daily and keep everything on point. Hope that I am wrong.

Good suggestions all round. I have to go get her a rat tomorrow from the same reptile store I bought her from and those guys are extremely knowledgeable herpetologists, so I think I'll show them that video as well, just to see what they think. I took her out this afternoon and handled her for a while and she was acting totally normal and content. She even took a little snooze around my neck. So I'll keep her monitored closely (as I always do lol) and see what the guys at the store have to say tomorrow.

Best of luck, i do hope my fears are wrong! I have dealt with lots of rescues over the years and I have seen too many pyrethroid poisoning cases, it looks like IBD but is not. Crazy spasms and uncontrolled movements. I hope your little one recovers!

So I spoke to my local herp-y experts at the reptile store I bought Matilda from, showed them the video and they informed me that one of Matilda's parents was indeed........a Spinner. So she apparently carries the allele for the wobble. They said it's nothing to worry about and to just keep up my mad excellent husbandry skillz lol. Good call to those to saw the spider/spinner wobble! So relieved that it's not something more serious!! Thanks to all for your input!! :gj:

That's not how the spider wobble works, only spiders and spider combos would carry the wobble. Any non-spider offspring would not carry the wobble.

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Originally Posted by RaeDee

I have checked her for mites and the reptile store I bought her from did a preventative treatment for mites before I even brought her home, so she's clear on the mites. I have two reptile carpets that I switch out weekly or whenever she soils it and I simply wash the dirty one by hand with a little dawn soap and hot water. I rinse it really thoroughly too. Like rinsed to the point where I would feel comfortable eating off it! Haha And like I said, she's done this since the first night I had her. I'll try to post a pic as soon as I figure out how haha :) I'm new on here! Still figuring everything out!

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Hi RaeDee, welcome to the forum. You say the store where you purchased her from treated her for mites. Kitedemon was trying to ascertain whether the bp has been exposed to any pyerethins so its important to find out what the reptile store used to preventatively treat for mites. That may prove crucial. Check with them asap. :gj:

My reply above had a typo- sorry. One of her parents was a SPIDER** not spinner. Sorry for the confusion. And I did check with them while I was there about the mite spray. They use it on all their snakes and not a single one has developed poisoning from it. They assured me that it was perfectly safe.

I have a spider and he wobbles quite a bit but I did read an article about spider behavior and that the wobble can be in other morphs, it's rare but it can happen. Hope this helps. The breeder I got my boy from said it is nothing to be concerned about.

Morganaberkana, that's almost exactly what the guys at the store told me. They said one of her parents was either part spider or full spider, they weren't sure but that even in the off chance that she is fully pinstripe, she could still have a wobble. The guy who runs the shop is a friend of mine and he is going to call the breeder (his friend) and find out exactly what her parentage is. I made double sure to ask about poisoning and he said unless I used some sort of fragrance or spray in the room, (which I absolutely have not; I'm not an idiot) poisoning is highly unlikely. He also said, as I've mentioned before in this same thread, that if it were poisoning, she would be showing more frequent and severe symptoms, during the day. Not just during the night hours. She's eaten normally, had normal BMs and is doing everything a normal snake would be doing, except for that weird movement at night.


I just came here for advice but I'm honestly feeling kinda attacked right now! jeeze louise :tears:

Who's attacking? I think people are trying to help. It doesn't matter what the parents are, since your snake isn't a spider it doesn't have the spider wobble. If a non-spider wobbles I'd be pretty concerned. I've hatched over 1000 babies in the last 7 years and I've never seen a non-spider wobble. It may be random but it's more likely from another cause such as overheating, poisoning, etc. If you like the snake and can deal with the issue she may be fine.

Well try to dispel that "attacked" feeling! Mostly everyone here is just trying to give possibilities of what the condition could be. We all feel like the bp is our own so we are trying to get to the bottom of the mystery. Hope you can get all the info you need on this. Good luck. :salute:

I meant 'attacked' in the sense that I'm being hit with a lot of competing information. Some people are telling me it's poisoning, which makes less sense to me honestly, seeing how she ONLY does this behavior at night and everything else is completely normal. Others are telling me its a random wobble that should not be worried about. OTHERS are telling me she's just an oddball. So I meant 'attacked' in the context of having all this conflicting information and not knowing what to do. I didn't mean to suggest that you had 'attacked' me, Dave Green lol I only meant that my brain feels attacked!

Just an overload of info ontop of you already being worried about your snake, just take the suggestions and check that they arent the cause and move on to the next one eliminating possibilites best you can.... and as you said the parent may be spider so she could just have the spider wobble and it be nothing at all

I'm honestly not nearly as worried about this behavior as I was yesterday. I truly believe she's just an oddball who likes to do weird stuff at night. I guess she gets it from her mama. :rolleyes: But of course, I'll keep both eyes on her and watch this behavior for changes, just to be sure she doesn't worsen. Thanks everyone for the advice! And thanks for taking it easy on the newbie :)

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Originally Posted by RaeDee

Morganaberkana, that's almost exactly what the guys at the store told me. They said one of her parents was either part spider or full spider, they weren't sure but that even in the off chance that she is fully pinstripe, she could still have a wobble. The guy who runs the shop is a friend of mine and he is going to call the breeder (his friend) and find out exactly what her parentage is. I made double sure to ask about poisoning and he said unless I used some sort of fragrance or spray in the room, (which I absolutely have not; I'm not an idiot) poisoning is highly unlikely. He also said, as I've mentioned before in this same thread, that if it were poisoning, she would be showing more frequent and severe symptoms, during the day. Not just during the night hours. She's eaten normally, had normal BMs and is doing everything a normal snake would be doing, except for that weird movement at night.


I just came here for advice but I'm honestly feeling kinda attacked right now! jeeze louise :tears:

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I am a new bp owner myself, so I understand the feeling of being overwhelmed with information! I've only had my boy for a month now, but I think you're doing okay. In all actuality getting the information from the breeder is the best way to go for now, IMO. The breeder can tell you if she has always done it or not and whether he/she has noticed it in other Spider parent clutches. The more information you have on her the better prepared you will be to care for her ;) You could also watch some YouTube videos of a spider wobble, it really looks exactly like what your girl is doing. My boy's wobble gets worse when he's hungry or when he's anxious but otherwise it's exactly the same as your girl. If all else fails you could take her to the vet and see what they say. But like I said I think getting info from the breeder is a great way to go!

I have a stinger bee (enchi spyder) and he does the same thing :) its the spyder wobble

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Originally Posted by Morganaberkana

The breeder can tell you if she has always done it or not and whether he/she has noticed it in other Spider parent clutches.

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Dave said it already, but it looks like it needs to be clarified again. It doesn't matter one single iota if either of the parents were a Spider because the OP's snake is not carrying the Spider gene. The "Spider wobble gene" is only passed along with the Spider gene. The cause of what RaeDee is seeing has nothing to do with Spider wobble. :)

Ok well if its not a spider wobble or poisoning, which I'm 100% sure it's not (because where are these symptoms during the day or when I'm holding her?), then I don't know what it is. She may just be a weird snake. I'm not going to worry any further about it until (IF) she starts showing worse or more frequent symptoms. Aside from this neck thing at night, she behaves like a normal ball python. So I'm going to treat her as such. I have an exotics vet very near me so if she does get worse, I'll take her straight in. For now, I'm going to leave her be and treat her normally. :) thanks again to everyone for their input and guidance!

not much else you can do really, as you said she acts Normal the rest of the time best to not worry unless it gets worse and just treat it as part of her personality and enjoy your girl.

RaeDee I am sorry if I made you feel attacked or distressed.

Every person draws on their experience and comments upon this. I work with a large reptile rescue, personally I have placed well over 1000 reptiles to new homes. I very sadly get to see lots and lots of calamities that befall reptiles. Mite treatment poisoning is one of them that is on the increase, this year I am up to 9 reptiles (mostly snakes) that have been poisoned (⅓ more than this time last year). They are a major issue as everyone must be sent out to have a IBD biopsy done to insure it is not IBD. I have never seen a case confirmed to be IBD yet. (many of the poisonings were thought to be IBD but were not.)

Your snake has a neurological issue, there can be no doubt of that. The options are genetic, poisoning, disease, physical trauma, heat stress, and virus. It is certainly one of these, I see so many poisoning that is my number one suspect. A perfectly safe poison IMO is an oxymoron. A safe poison (insecticide) does not exist, there are less dangerous ones and safe concentrations for a given size, yes but 100% safe?

You presented a snake with a neurological issue, a poison, and I jumped to what I see most, poisoning. I never thought spider as we don't get very many rescues that are spider morphs, my personal spider has very little issues, he just over exaggerates his movements when stressed. I never think of that because I don't see wobble much (ever). The video is more severe than any spider I personally have ever had in my hands. I was the farthest thing from my mind.

Sorry, I agree poisoning effects all movements not just the way the snake moves during the night only, it doesn't start and stop it is always present with movement. It seems to be genetic which is actually quite sad as it will not leave it may change becoming worse or better but always present.

IF on the off chance that the snake does die. it seems unlikely currently, genetic is the only one that comes and goes.

I would very very strongly suggest a screen for IBD be done and a liver exam. This is quite important, as this is also one of the possibilities, it will determine IBD or poisoning, in either case the place you purchased it from should know they both are very serious. I can't speak for them, but the breeder I use, would be quite prepared under this kind of circumstance be to pay for the tests to be done, they too would need to know what the cause was.

Kitedemon, you didn't make me feel attacked or distressed or anything like that so no worries :) I do believe it is genetic and personally, as long as she doesn't worsen or hurt herself with these movements at night, I'm fine with it. Matilda is a very gentle and calm snake when being held or when I'm adjusting anything in her tank so if a genetic flaw is the only problem, I see no harm in that (of course, like i said, unless it worsens) The spray the store used was not a poisonous substance. They used Reptile Relief by Natural Chemistry. The guys at the store even showed me the bottle and assured me that they use it on every snake they sell, just to be sure they aren't sending a snake home with mites. As you said, were poisoning the case, she would be showing symptoms all the time and after 3 weeks of owning her, I feel she would have either died or been worsening by now. She ate normally yesterday as she always does and last night, she only came out to "dance" and explore (without the movements I.e. Climbing on her branch normally) for a few minutes before she went back in her hide. I do trust your judgment based on the amount of experience you have so I appreciate your informative input. But I believe I have a perfectly healthy, albeit a little odd, ball python. However, like I said before, I watch her very closely so the moment I see any sign of worsening or new symptoms, if they should arise, I'll take her straight in to the vet. Thanks again for your input and suggestions :) I really do appreciate it!

Wow, I'm away for 2 days and this becomes a 4 page thread. Dave is a very reputable breeder so I trust his opinion but a lot of the others have brought up good points as well. It sounds like possibly a minor issue as she's eating well, so I'll keep my fingers crossed that it's nothing. Good luck with her.

Ok well you guys scared me into taking Matilda to the vet so I took her in just now to see one of my friend's colleagues who is a reptile vet, specializing in snakes. (Bear in mind, I'm in vet school myself so most/almost all of my friends are vets or vet techs or somehow related to the animal world) I showed him the video I posted on here and he examined her on this really cool exam table that was actually heated on one end (awesome, never seen that before). He checked her over nose to tail, looked in her mouth, checked her heat vents, looked at her eyes, her vent, pretty much every part of her. He also hung her by her tail in his hand and checked her muscles to see if she could pull herself up without aid. No problems there. He also rolled her on her back like I did (which she did not enjoy) and she again righted herself no problem. So we had a nice long talk about IBD and how he does not think that's what this is since the movement only happens at night and there are no other physiological symptoms. He also ruled out poisoning for the same reason. What he believes is that her weird night 'dancing' is just an expression of anxiety or even trying to "hunt". He was led to the hunting theory by the fact that she does not 'dance' for the first night or two after she's eaten, but that's only a theory. But he drew a blood sample anyways and is sending it away to be tested for any unusual pathogens (IBD, neurocysticercosis, etc.) and I should have the results back either tomorrow or Monday, but he said he really doesn't think it's anything to be worried about; just to make sure she's eating and not regurgitating, having normal BM's etc.) So thankfully, my nerves are finally calmed lol Of course, I await the blood results but I tend to agree with the vet. Thanks to everyone who helped by offering their input! And of course, I'll post an update in a day or two when I hear the results from the bw.

Great to hear, shes lucky to have someone so proactive... i highly doubt its ibd... everytbing ive read about that shows it being a fast and lethal killer to ball pythons, usually starting with a complete loss of appitite and bad weight loss, another early symptom is complete loss or diminishing muscle controll in the snakes tail end.... as you and your vet think its probably just a weird behavior and nothing to be worried about untill something changes but youll know 100% in a few days

So I got the results of Matilda's bloodwork back and she is IBD free! Also free of neurocysticercosis and many other things they tested for (poisons etc) Yay!!! So it looks like my sweet girl is gonna be just fine :) also she peed on me for the first time the other night so that was fun!! :gj: Anyways, thanks to all who helped with their advice and input! So thankful it's nothing serious and that I've just got an oddball (pun intended lol)