When does Force Feeding Become and Option?

Hello again,

I had previously posted for help on feeding my ball python Nagini, which the only good advice given was not to preemptively soak your snake in water before a shed. With that advice she was able to get a perfect shed this time! So now that she shed this Saturday I would like to feed her tonight. If you want take the time to read the previous post I linked it. Read it only if you read it all unless you will post outdated stuff (http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...feeding-advice).

For now though this is the overview. Nagini: roughly 2.2 year old female norm BP. I had received her from the previous owner 2 months ago, to which they had not fed her for 2 weeks. She has yet to eaten since. She has dropped from a weight of 720 grams to 630 grams during the past 2 months I have had her. I have had problems with husbandry early on, but those have been fixed for the past 3 weeks. I believe a recent perfect shed means that the husbandry is fine?

PROBLEM: Nagini has not eaten for 2.5 months. I think that she should be eating like crazy since she is so young. I have tried feeding her every week on Sunday since I got her except this last Sunday. I have tried live the first 4 weeks, switching to a frozen small rat the 5th, a frozen large mouse the 6th, frozen chick for the 7th, and skipping the 8th since she was shedding. Now this is the 9th week in which I have owned her and would like to try feeding again. Since the small rat and large mouse were slightly smaller than her width, I think I am going to try a medium F/T mouse this time. I think this might be a problem, my snakes temperament is more on the scared side, when trying to animate the F/T animals, she would simply approach and sniff the wiggling thing, only to back off in fear more or less. In every case of a F/T feeding I left the food in the cage for over night.

FAQs:
When do you feed?
Soon after she starts coming out to "explore her cage." Roughly 9 pm

Is the husbandry right?
80 deg cool, 92 deg hide UTH on hot side that is 86deg ambient, two water dishes, one for both hot and cool, 60% humidity.

Did previous owner have feeding probs?
No, he fed both live and frozen.

Any recent major changes in tank setup?
Not for past 3 weeks.

Did the live bite her?
No since I am supervising all feedings where the prey is living.

Is she sick?
No signs of sickness, RI, mites, and scale rot not showing if there.

Does she look healthy?
Yes, she looks healthy, ribs not visible.

Substrate?
Aspen shavings, switched from newspaper to help make new home like previous owners for security 3 weeks ago.

Do you play with her before a feeding?
No.

Feed in another container?
Told not to, so after 4th feed attempt never done again.

Are you going to really Force Feed?
Soon if she does not eat.


Force feeding, no one likes it, snake and owner, but I like a living healthy snake. Not one that seems to be starving itself during its teenage years of growing. She should be putting on weight and length at the moment. Which is hard to do without food. I have researched on how to force feed but I do not know the when. So for the replies to this post, please keep it to the when I should force feed the snake. I think once she hits 550 grams I will have no choice but to do so. At this rate (I have a log book of weights, feeding attempts, ect) I will be attempting a force feed in about two months. I am trying a smaller prey tonight so I hope that works. Any suggestions towards a better chance of her eating will be greatly appreciated as well.

Has all the food been the same color, its rare but ive heard of bp refusing certain colored prey items, have you tried braining the prey, ive also heard rubbing chicken broth/stock on the prey sometimes works.... i hope something changes i couldnt imagine going threw that with my 2 babies

Force feeding should never, ever be done on an adult snake unless it is literally life or death.

Assist feeding or force feeding is a last resort solution that is done when everything else has failed, which includes, downsizing enclosure to the smallest one available in this case 15 quarts tub, along with other things, like NO handling, feeding the proper prey (rats or mice) and the proper size and preferably live (medium mouse are too mall and will likely not be recognize as prey) etc

It is far from unusual for animals that age to go off feed with their new owner I have had several adults that came into my care that cease to eat anywhere for 6 months to a year before resuming feeding with me.

The key is PATIENCE

Force feeding should only be done if ALL other options have failed. Even then, sometimes it's just better to let them go peacefully to their reward.

Personally, I've never found force feeding to be all that effective, but sometimes it works.

What kind of cage? (sorry if this was covered already) If an aquarium, try covering all of the glass so that she is completely isolated.
2 1/2 months is really not that bad. I've had several go more then half a year before they started feeding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Personally, I've never found force feeding to be all that effective, but sometimes it works.

What kind of cage? (sorry if this was covered already) If an aquarium, try covering all of the glass so that she is completely isolated.
2 1/2 months is really not that bad. I've had several go more then half a year before they started feeding.

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It's a young snake, 31" long 630 grams, that is why I think 4.5 months no feed might be the time to really consider force feeding.

It is an aquarium, it has a foil wrapped cardboard top (on top of the lid), dark teal paper is wrapped around 3 sides. When I do feed I throw a towel over the remaining open glass side for privacy except a slit if I am live feeding. So more or less she has her cage "isolated."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by M.P.C

Has all the food been the same color, its rare but ive heard of bp refusing certain colored prey items, have you tried braining the prey, ive also heard rubbing chicken broth/stock on the prey sometimes works.... i hope something changes i couldnt imagine going threw that with my 2 babies

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Other than the chick, the mice/rat were white.

Braining, yet to do because I thought it was for baby snakes, but if that would help I can splice open a cranium (would need to be told the proper way to do so though).

Chicken broth, I would believe that but I tried feeding a chick to her. Since I have yet to try that I will do it next week if she DOES NOT ACCEPT this smaller pray item today.

Thank you for the suggestions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AngleusGabriel

I have had problems with husbandry early on, but those have been fixed for the past 3 weeks.

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Sometimes it takes them a little longer to get situated again.

I personally wouldn't force feed her now. Way too soon, IMO. I'd probably just switch to offering her food every 14 days, offer her small food, and keep watching her weight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AngleusGabriel

She has dropped from a weight of 720 grams to 630 grams during the past 2 months I have had her.

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You also said she shed for you. Did she poop when she shed? They usually do, and if so, that's where a big chunk of your weight loss went.

I know when i first tried feeding my fire ball python he wanted zero to do with the white mouse, but the fallowimg week he instantly went for the brown rat no problem thats the only reason i mentioned the color of prey. but as other have mentioned its not abnormal for them to go off feed periods of time but ive also only heard that being ok as long as they arent loosing much weight

Are you sure it's a female? It's not uncommon for males to go off feed this time of year when they're more interested in mating.

In the beginning of the poet you said she was 2.2 years old? Then later you described her non feeding behavior as teenage? A 2.2 year old bp weighing 630 gms? In any case you are trying to feed her too frequently. And this is just my opinion, switch to a10 to 12 day attempt to feed. If every week you are being unsuccessful the law of averages are working against you and her. Extend the time in between and consider feeding very late at night and in the complete dark. Mix a little 100% cypress mulch into the aspen and just back off the feeding attempts for the next 12 days. Definitely don't handle her or allow anyone else to handle her during this time. As a matter of fact I would start today and forget about that feeding you were going to do. Good luck and stay in peace and not pieces. Force feeding is way too stressful and you have so many other options right now. :gj:

About the color of the mice, best I can say is that I fed a different color and animal with the chick. So far as colored rats go, I believe she is to small for a live rat and I do not have access to those since PetCo does not let me choose the color of F/T animals.

To the shedding person, yes I know when they shed they poop. She shed for me twice, first time was a terrible shed, second time was perfect. So I expect her to lose weight but I do not want her to be on the edge of death before I decide to force feed her.

Her/Him? The original owner purchased the snake with the seller already having it sexed as a female.

To the person saying do not feed today. I am still going to because since she was shedding I literally only held her twice this week, once to clean the cage and earlier after I found out she was in shed. So all things considered, I did not extenuate her no where near as much as the first month and a half.

So far as husbandry conditions. She does spend a good 3 hours trying to find an exit to the cage. Which she never has gotten out on her own, thus the idea of I did it before is not in her head.

The force feeding question is when should I?

How small in weight can a 31" female snake get before I should do such a thing?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AngleusGabriel

I do not want her to be on the edge of death before I decide to force feed her.
...
The force feeding question is when should I?

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There's no specific weight or time, it varies depending on snake and circumstances, and everyone will have a slightly different answer, but you're not even close to the point of needing to do that yet for your snake.

When should you? Not until you're sure its the only course of action left. Keep in mind, if you do this wrong you're very liable to do more harm than good in the end. Are you prepared to cause that much stress on your snake? My calico pastel took a month to eat for me, my cinnamon took almost 3 and she still only eats once a month or so now. Everyone has their problem eaters, the best thing for them is patience and to leave them be in peace. Odds are your snake will not starve itself to death and if you keep up offering food eventually she'll take it.

By the by 600-700 grams is terribly small for a female over 2 years old. I have 3 born in 2013 and the smallest of them is close to 800g, the largest being over 1100.

I just got one of my males back onto food after a 7 month fast. Give it time and more time. She will eat when she is ready. I moved my male to a smaller tub for a month with no offering of food at all and only picked him up to move to clean tub. Then offered a rat crawler at midnight last night woke up to no rat.

I wouldn't consider force/assist feeding until you look at the snake and think 'That animal is about to starve to death'. It's incredibly stressful and generally a bad idea unless you're talking about babies.

When mine wouldn't eat I had it recommended to get a paper bag and a rubberband to shut the top of it with, heat the mouse up and put the snake and mouse in the bag and leave them for awhile. I never had any luck; ended up having to feed live before mine would eat, but it might be worth a try.