Feeding live?

My 2.5 year old snake hasn't ate since December 15th. He was injured and is now recovered but won't eat still. He ate f/t sm/med rats before this. Since he got hurt he's lost a lot of weight and is borderline size for a small rat or a large mouse. The size difference between those two is huge. I've been offering large mice and he's shown interest but won't strike. I'm going to try live, do I get a large mouse? Small rat? Try f/t again? I know he's recovering and in his "hunger strike" months but I don't remember the past years it being this long and I worry.

If you're going to try live, go with the smaller prey. If you've never fed live before, keep a pencil on hand in case the mouse tries to attack the snake. With a live mouse, you should be okay. He may be searching for something with a pulse.

I would go with the adult mouse, at least until he's feeding better. I'd also euthanize or at least stun it first, I have a fussy feeder who seems to be intimidated by moving prey. If you do try totally live, I second MontyAndMelissa's advice to keep a pencil or tongs on hand in case it fights back.

I personally would try to feed live first. Snakes hunt their prey. They aren't scavengers, so they prefer when their prey is moving.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MontyAndMelissa

I personally would try to feed live first. Snakes hunt their prey. They aren't scavengers, so they prefer when their prey is moving.

---

I don't like feeding live for many reasons, one of which being injury to the snake, which is why I recommended fresh kill. I have one who only eats "live", aka live and freshly euth'd because he doesn't seem to notice the difference. ;)

OP, I would try a warm adult mouse first, maybe scented with hamster/gerbil shavings to really get him interested, and if that doesn't work try live.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pariahdog

I don't like feeding live for many reasons, one of which being injury to the snake, which is why I recommended fresh kill. I have one who only eats "live", aka live and freshly euth'd because he doesn't seem to notice the difference. ;)

OP, I would try a warm adult mouse first, maybe scented with hamster/gerbil shavings to really get him interested, and if that doesn't work try live.

---

I don't feed live either, and I don't plan on resorting back to it. But if a snake goes off feed, especially in the spring, you have to keep your options open. :) many people aren't comfortable prekilling mice, or stunning them. My mom used to have to slam rabbits against the wall to feed her red tail, and man did it get to her.

Live should be a last resort. I have yet to meet a Royal that cannot be converted to F/T and I have seen a few F/T eaters that refuse to deal with a live rat. (I have rescued out close to a 1000 royals now) and every now and again one comes back because it will not eat. In the three cases now the F/T eater was offered live and refused it. The three cases all ate with no problems once back in the facility and offered F/T again.

My point is Royals often imprint on food. An adult mouser has to be struggled with to convert it to rats and often will revert back to mice given a chance.

I would offer what you have always offered not try something new. A regularly eating snake often will not eat new things. Routine is a trait of these animals.

There is a caveat here, if the you know the snake was started on mice a mouse scented rat may help, if that fails a mouse may work but you might get stuck feeding mice and mousers often are under weight because it just isn't big enough when they are still in a growth spirt, they will fill out sooner or later but IMO it is a poor food for a growing snake and a inappropriate food for an adult.

Live feeders often can be a pain to switch, it isn't a huge problem feeding live as long as it is supervised, but that takes time an extra 10 or 15 min per snake and if you care for any number that is potentially a lot of time. It is such a fluke for a snake to be injured by dead prey it is almost funny. It however is not uncommon for a snake to be hurt by a rodent defending its life.

First things first, make sure everything in his enclosure is on point. Hides, humidity, heat, etc. Then I would try feeding a live mouse, perhaps something a hair smaller than you normally would and see how it goes. I have heard of people saying that the snakes are reluctant to eat after a prey-induced injury, but I have never witnessed this first hand. He will eat is everything is right.

My snake was exhibiting similar behavior. After 6 months of being a ferocious eater, he suddenly stopped, and went 2 months without eating....would show interest, but would never strike. He'd been on f/t rat pups, but I finally tried going with a small f/t mouse, and also thawed yet another rat pup. He showed interest in the mouse, but wouldn't strike. So I left it on top of his hide (which has a hole in the top of it). Within about 30 minutes, the mouse was gone, so I left the rat pup as well. It disappeared soon after I left it. I kept using this approach for a few weeks with success. On one attempt, the rat was there for about 2 hours, so I removed the rat, and cracked its skull with a pair of pliers (some blood came out of the mouse's mouth/nose - this is one of the methods keepers often recommend).... Put the rat back in on top of hide, and it was gone in about an hour.

Just a few days ago (an interval of about 10 days from the prior feed), I warmed up another pup, and made sure it was around 100 degrees F with a temp gun. I always scent the room off the feeder rats with a blow-dryer for about 30 seconds, and this time, the snake came out of his hide, and after a few wiggles of the rat with forceps in front of the snake, he hit it hard, and down it went.

I think some of this earlier behavior might be attributed to colder temperatures and lower relative humidity (pretty brutal winter everywhere on East coast this year). In Georgia where I live, it's starting to warm up again, and I'm sure my snake is getting back into his normal groove. Trying to feed it too often when it's behaving this way might be discouraging it too, so you might want to try attempts at intervals of a few weeks minimum. Above everything though, make sure the feeder is real warm/not hot and be sure to try leaving it outside the snake's hide if he doesn't go for it initially. (and walk away and leave him alone with it !)

Were getting off point. Some snakes won't eat live, some snakes won't eat f/t. The way I see it is if you can't feed your snake a live animals because it's "morally wrong" you shouldn't own a snake. Sometimes that's what needs to be done to save the snakes life, the key thing right now is getting that snake fed, regardless of how it's done. Now, enough pointless banter and give this owner some information that will actually help.

Wow... Did this thread ever go OT. Sorry original poster, people tend to get a little overzealous on this issue.

Have you tried leaving the f/t item in the tub with the snake for a while? I just got a new enchi and she refused to eat while I was in the room.. she'd even defense-strike the prey item but not coil. I hazarded leaving it in with her one night and she ate it when I wasn't in the room. Apparently, she's a shy eater.

Good luck, I know how anxious it can make you when your snake doesn't feed for a long period of time (and is loosing weight). My problem snake is a hognose that has been on / off feed for a long time now.

The fact still remains that switching food types during a hunger strike rarely works.

Wow previous posters. Wow. I'm asking about feeding my snake and I come back and see a debate. Really? Wow.

Snake has been an on point eater until he got hurt (from a NON feeding related injury). I don't want to go to live because he's taken f/t just fine in the past. I also didn't want to switch to mice from rats because I've heard of issues going back to bigger prey.

If Anyone has any other helpful advice, please share.

I'm nervous about feeding live and I'm nervous because he's been off his food and losing weight steadily. My vet said if he doesn't eat they want to look into force feeding him which I DON'T want to do, at all.

Thank you to those with helpful suggestions.

I don't have any great feeding tips other than feeding live or changing the type of feeder, however I will say that you should try feeding live before you go to forcefeeding. That can be really stressful for the snake, especially if they are older, and even if you are nervous live-feeding would be a better option (even if it's inconvenient) for the snake.

Hopefully someone has some advice that can help without having to feed live.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnnaK231

Wow previous posters. Wow. I'm asking about feeding my snake and I come back and see a debate. Really? Wow.

Snake has been an on point eater until he got hurt (from a NON feeding related injury). I don't want to go to live because he's taken f/t just fine in the past. I also didn't want to switch to mice from rats because I've heard of issues going back to bigger prey.

If Anyone has any other helpful advice, please share.

I'm nervous about feeding live and I'm nervous because he's been off his food and losing weight steadily. My vet said if he doesn't eat they want to look into force feeding him which I DON'T want to do, at all.

Thank you to those with helpful suggestions.

---

I think that rat pups are the same size roughly as large mice.http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...7da629019a.jpg the difference is in the scent.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnnaK231

Wow previous posters. Wow. I'm asking about feeding my snake and I come back and see a debate. Really? Wow.

Snake has been an on point eater until he got hurt (from a NON feeding related injury). I don't want to go to live because he's taken f/t just fine in the past. I also didn't want to switch to mice from rats because I've heard of issues going back to bigger prey.

If Anyone has any other helpful advice, please share.

I'm nervous about feeding live and I'm nervous because he's been off his food and losing weight steadily. My vet said if he doesn't eat they want to look into force feeding him which I DON'T want to do, at all.

Thank you to those with helpful suggestions.

---

If you haven't already tried ... Put the rat in a polythene bag or something waterproof and lower into some very warm water until the rat is lovely and warm .. The bag is so the rat retains it's scent . . Have the viv doors open and at the last moment give the rat a good blast on the head area with a hair dryer ... Using tongs / long tweezers simply dangle the rat by its tail in front of the snakes face . My two Albino will only strike from their hide ..the Pastel one is a drop feeder thankfully . You may have to re- heat the rat a few times with a hairdryer before it strikes ..

The thread has now been re-opened, for those wishing to continue the great Live vs F/T debate you can do so here http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...-vs-F-T-debate

Now back to our regular programming.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnnaK231

Wow previous posters. Wow. I'm asking about feeding my snake and I come back and see a debate. Really? Wow.

Snake has been an on point eater until he got hurt (from a NON feeding related injury). I don't want to go to live because he's taken f/t just fine in the past. I also didn't want to switch to mice from rats because I've heard of issues going back to bigger prey.

If Anyone has any other helpful advice, please share.

I'm nervous about feeding live and I'm nervous because he's been off his food and losing weight steadily. My vet said if he doesn't eat they want to look into force feeding him which I DON'T want to do, at all.

Thank you to those with helpful suggestions.

---

Few important things on the situation in general first it is a 2.5 years old animal which means he knows how to eat and therefore assist feeding or force feeding is not an option. He can also go on for a long amount of time (a year is not unheard of) without any issue aside from being frustrating for you the owner.

Going of feed can have several causes, seasonal changes, breeding mood, fasting to catch up when offer to much food (remember that they are being overfed in captivity).

The key to help an animal resume feeding after a long strike are, making sure that the animal as an optimum setup double check everything, sometimes downsizing the enclosure will help the animal resume feeding. Most importantly it's really about patience.

Now as far as switching prey type it's never really a good option unless you change to another commonly fed prey item such as mice and even than you must be prepared to feed the other prey type permanently same if you go from F/T to live so if it's not what you wish to do patience will be what need to be demonstrated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MontyAndMelissa

I think that rat pups are the same size roughly as large mice.http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...7da629019a.jpg the difference is in the scent.

---

very useful document. thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

Few important things on the situation in general first it is a 2.5 years old animal which means he knows how to eat and therefore assist feeding or force feeding is not an option. He can also go on for a long amount of time (a year is not unheard of) without any issue aside from being frustrating for you the owner.

Going of feed can have several causes, seasonal changes, breeding mood, fasting to catch up when offer to much food (remember that they are being overfed in captivity).

The key to help an animal resume feeding after a long strike are, making sure that the animal as an optimum setup double check everything, sometimes downsizing the enclosure will help the animal resume feeding. Most importantly it's really about patience.

Now as far as switching prey type it's never really a good option unless you change to another commonly fed prey item such as mice and even than you must be prepared to feed the other prey type permanently same if you go from F/T to live so if it's not what you wish to do patience will be what need to be demonstrated.

---

Thanks for for cleaning up the post. Like I said, I don't want to have the vet force feed because A: it's very stressful for the snake and B: he might regurgitate it anyways.

His cage is perfect, I will go back to small rats and try and find rat pups (I think they were called) if it's too big. I read that he can eat prey 10-15% his body weight...do you know if this is true? I'd think the 10% would be fine but the small rats I have on hand (frozen) are about 13% of his weight.

Perhaps I am just being impatient. Probably confused the heck out of him to by offering mice vs rats. I do only offer every 7-14 days though. Once he hit 2 years he started eating every 10-21 days so I would hope that he wasn't overfed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnnaK231

Thanks for for cleaning up the post.

---

You're welcome :gj:

Quote:

---

His cage is perfect, I will go back to small rats and try and find rat pups (I think they were called) if it's too big. I read that he can eat prey 10-15% his body weight...do you know if this is true? I'd think the 10% would be fine but the small rats I have on hand (frozen) are about 13% of his weight.

---

This while it applies to hatchlings up to juvenile definitely does not apply to adults as their metabolism slows down dramatically for example I have big females 2500 grams all the way to 4000 grams that only ever eat rats that are in the 120/150 grams range and even than every now and than I skip a week of feeding.

Males are fed even less they actually get preys that are about 55 grams to 75 grams.

They can eat more however it is not necessary, it's already a lot of food for them when you compare their activity level to the food intake, of course in the wild they might snatch the biggest prey available but you have to keep in mind that the next one might not come around for month, here in captivity we serve them a meal every single week.

Feeding smaller prey allows to have animals that eat with consistency avoiding long fast and allowing steady weight gain.

When fed to much they will at some point fast to catch up.

Let's try this again because apparently some people have issues understanding what being on topic means and prefer to derail the thread once more

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

The thread has now been re-opened, for those wishing to continue the great Live vs F/T debate you can do so here http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...-vs-F-T-debate

Now back to our regular programming.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MontyAndMelissa

Were getting off point. Some snakes won't eat live, some snakes won't eat f/t. The way I see it is if you can't feed your snake a live animals because it's "morally wrong" you shouldn't own a snake. Sometimes that's what needs to be done to save the snakes life, the key thing right now is getting that snake fed, regardless of how it's done. Now, enough pointless banter and give this owner some information that will actually help.

---

Thank you MontyAndMelissa. The question about whether to feed live is prolific in the reptile community. I maintain the position that snakes evolved over millions of years to hunt live, breathing, moving prey. If it won't eat f/t you need to introduce a litany of various live prey items to get that meal in the animal. Live adult mice do the trick usually. Try different colors and breeds if necessary. If you have access to them, african soft fur rats are usually beloved by bps as a delicacy. Sometimes live gerbils and hamsters can do the trick to rev up the feeding response. The only risk you run using alternative feeders is having to continuously purchasing them for the animal. Some bps become fixated on them.