Stupid Plastic Tubs? General Assessment? HELP PLEASE

Hey guys,

This is a bit of a silly question but I'm a little concerned.

Today my boyfriend and I went to Repticon in Denver. We picked up two red tail boa morphs for 250. Very healthy, eating well, no mites, pretty relaxed... all that good stuff.

We brought them home and set them in two separate boxes while we went to pick up some tubs, since we weren't entirely sure we were gonna get anyone. I think maybe the tubs are a little too flimsy. I need to get a heat source on each of em, like a uth or the tape since lights are a little too hot and dry, but I think it might melt them. Right now I've got some extra heat lamps hanging waaaay above their lids so that they're getting heat, but i can tell if i set them any closer they'll melt.

These are the first snakes I've housed in tubs, and while I do like the space and the humidity levels staying where they're supposed to, I'm unsure what to do. Do you think this'll be okay or should i definitely go exchange?

I was hoping maybe someone could help me with a better brand or where to go. I'm thinking I'm gonna have to return them. We got these poopy tubs at walmart.

(Also, that's one of the new boas! She's a ghost, and the male is a 100% anery Hypo Monser Tail)

[IMG]http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...057191_hdr.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...723799_hdr.jpg[/IMG]

This is what no one says about tubs, you will need to keep the room the tubs in warm via a space heater, oil heater or some other external heat source since as you found out, you cant really heat the ambient air in only the tubs very well with colder outside ambient air. me personally, im sorry but i don't use tubs, i use glass tanks for my babies with just CHEs and they do fine. Then I'll switch them to PVC cages when they outgrow the glass tanks. Maybe someone has some idea other than a portable room heater.

I agree tubs generally can only be heated with UTH or heat cable under the bottom systems. They hold next to no heat (poor insulator) and because of this rely on the air temperature of the surrounding air to hold the correct temps. To some degree everything does but other types of enclosures have greater options and a greater tolerance for cool rooms. This is the same for racks as well. The best advise I have is to either buy a different enclosure system, or build a smaller space around the tub and heat the air in that. A styrofoam cooler on its side can be a cheap quick fix you can add a low wattage fluorescent bulb to add heat and a bank of deep blue LED for over night. LEDs don't through much heat but the electronics do, (transformers and such) I know some whom use a power bar for a computer will a bank of 'wall warts' in it to heat a small space.

If you got the dosh, PVC enclosures are probably the way to go. They hold heat and moisture the best out of most options, but they're also probably the priciest.

This is why you don't buy an animal without having stuff set up for it already. I have a buddy that sets up a general catch all enclosure 20 gallons with paper towels and humidity at 60% and a heat lamp for a 90-75 overall gradient. Every time he goes to a reptile show.

Actually Lizardlicks, for the size, PVC cages are cheaper than glass tanks. Sometimes I will go to the pet shops when bored just to look around and my god, I'm amazed by how much big glass tanks cost nowadays, they are in the multiple hundreds of dollars easily. And they weigh a ton to boot as well lol. And yes you are right, PVC/HDPE cages are to best solution.

What we did was move them up higher onto a shelf. Our room temp is usually 80 degrees, and they were sitting on the floor so it was much cooler. The temps are actually doing very well. I picked up a uth temp regulator and it hasn't been an issue. No melting, and belly spot itsnt too hot :)

We usually use glass too, thats why I was hoping for some info from people that use tubs. I think we actually did alright. I was just worried at first since I've never used this type of enclosure before.

And to the person that mentioned not buying before supplying - I understand. We usually don't do this. Before we went to the show we had no intent of buying. Usually we have a spare 10 gal for emergencies and random pickups, but we rescued a hog a couple months ago and gave it to him. Thought we were done getting snakes but we were wrong!

Sorry to worry anyone! I promise we're not ridiculously incompetent.

Aww a little hoggie!! I want one of those little guys lol. I hear they are gushing with personality. Good t hear you got the temps up but I would definitely look into PVC cages once they outgrow those tubs. And my vote at the moment is Animal Plastics. They seem to have the best prices for the sizes and they offer shelves for a very reasonable price. Just takes forever and a day to get one when ordered :)

I use tubs, but they are in a heated room.

I use an ultratherm (from reptilebasics) under one end hooked to a t-stat. If I need to up the ambient temp, I have a lamp on a lamp stand that is adjustable (the stand and the lamp is on a dimmer). I drill holes in the tub on all 4 sides near the top (not many like 5-6 on the long sides and 3 on the short ends) to help move air around.

I DO advise using bulldog clips (binder clips... the giant ones that are 2" long and hold up to 1" thick) on the long sides of the tubs to keep them down.. boas are good at pushing them up otherwise.

I have 3 tubs on hand and used to use them (and glass tanks) exclusively. When I upgraded to a rack, I moved everyone out of the tubs except for my large boa that is in a very large tub. I keep the rest of the tubs around for quarantine setups.

When I was in my old apartment and using a non-heatd room, I would still use the heat lamp over the warm end of the tubs with the uth on the warm side also.. But I would drape a towel over the tub to help hold in heat. This system seemed to work pretty well.

I much prefer tubs to glass tanks... For me, they are so much easier to clean and swap out as needed. I am a small person, so lifting a big glass tank to move it or clean wouldn't work. I plan on buying pvc cages for all of my larger snakes (boas, jag. carpet) when they are large enough, but will keep the BPs, sandboas, and hognose in their racks.

I second the bulldog binder clips.

It is easy to heat tubs. I use a 35 watt halogen spotlight on a dimmer pointed at the tub. The light in about 20 inches away. I have a black top, so the light doesn't bother the snake. Radiant temps hit 87.

I also have an aquarium heater set to 89 in a rubber maid container filled with water to proved belly heat. I provides even heat, has thermal mass to keep the tank stable, and can't burn the snake. On top of the substrate temps hit 82-84 with just this heater. To make the heater, I cut a slit in the rubber top with a razor blade knife, then cut a hole big enough for the chord at the end of the slit. I pushed the cord through the slit into the hole and used silicone to seal the slit and hole. Then I fill the container with water, set the heater 89 and put the lid on. Instant safe UTH. If you want to add humidity, a few small drill holes in the lid can raise humidity by ten or so percent. I change the water in the rubbermaid once a week.

David

If you end up wanting a glass tank (probably not the best for a bigger snake, $$$), craigslist can usually land you one for less than a $1/gallon.

These are all such wonderful ideas. I really like this forum since I can talk with so many herp lovers and everyone is so willing to share such excellent knowledge. Fresh change :)

I appreciate your help guys! I will definitely get some binder clips. My ball likes to try and escape from her mesh top sometimes, but these little boas are SO strong already, on top of these tubs being a little flimsy.

Nightrainfalls, I never thought about using an aquarium heater, but that is really cool. I'll have to give it a shot when it starts cooling down out here again. I just got them where they need to be with the room temp and belly heat. Plus they're getting a good light cycle out of a small lamp with a regular daylight flourecent bulb.

Artgecko, I'm pretty tiny too! My ball is in a 45 gallon right now and boy that thing is ridiculously heavy. Takes two grown men to help me move it when I need to clean and disinfect it. I already love these tubs so much more. Light, comfortable for the snakes, temps and humidity are easier to manage. They're gonna grow out of them soon though. I like your heated room setup too. When we have more space I'll be able to do that for sure.

And Sauzo, hogs are BURSTING with personality! I posted a few picture of my little Kevin bacon yesterday. They're pretty bad, but hey, pictures are pictures! And thank you for reccomemding animal plastics PVC's. I looked at them, and the prices are definitely not bad. They don't look ridiculously heavy either. I'll have to look into them more seriously when these guys get a little bit bigger.

Again, thank you all for being so helpful. Your tips mean so much to me :)

Posted my reply before I saw the last comment, sorry snakeballs. I looked on craigslist a little bit, but right now we didn't have the space for big glass ones unless we were putting them out in the living room where I can't monitor their temperatures and humidity levels as well. We keep our snakes in our bedroom with us and this room is suited well for them since we're always in it and its pretty warm. The other rooms of the house get pretty chilly at night and really hot during the day because of the sliding doors and large windows. Plus our cat is the spawn of Satan and would stare at them all night without supervision. Our other snakes actually have black poster paper on the fronts so the cat doesn't bother them, lol.

When the rainbow boa gets too big for her 20 gallon we'll probably put it on craigslist too :)

Personally I like PVCx and glass tanks equally the speed and ease of cleaning a tank is hard to pass up for sure. I have a mix, where I am glass tanks even from the pet store are cheaper than plastic enclosures (commercially made ones anyway). I usually side turn the tanks it is best of both worlds really. I actually don't think any enclosure type is better or worse just different, each has advantages and disadvantages. It is simply a matter of having the type that best suits the location and keepers abilities.

Problem with glass tanks is to be big enough for a 8' boa, it is going to weigh a ton and a half. That same size in PVC is going to be maybe 25lbs. So even a small gal can lift one of those PVC cages to move it or clean it. And I need to shop where you shop for glass cages. All the petshops by my area charge $100ish for 40 gallon breeders and for something that is 4', it jumps up to over $200. And to make it worse, they all are like 18" deep at best. Turning them sideways works and building some kind of front works but that's assuming you have the tank laying around. Even my CLs here sells large tanks for $100. I would rather just spend the extra cash and get something around 48x30x18 and call it done.

That is my point, a tank from a local store that is 48wide x 22deep x 18 high is 209$ and PVC enclosure is not available for pick up that is 48 wide x 24 deep x 16 high is 289$ plus 120$ shipping so 409$ compared to 209 plus 30$ for the plexi door. That is quite a savings, the weight makes heating easier as it holds heat for so long. It is harder to move but I rarely move mine. Each has advantages and disadvantages for me neither is clearly better.

Do you guys like rack systems? I like how compact and controlled they are but are you still able to give the snakes a photo period? I thought they needed the light cycle so it didn't mess up their eyes. I think I'd like the PVC better though since they're stackable, relatively compact and pretty.

Plus hearing the weight difference makes me pretty happy :P

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

That is my point, a tank from a local store that is 48wide x 22deep x 18 high is 209$ and PVC enclosure is not available for pick up that is 48 wide x 24 deep x 16 high is 289$ plus 120$ shipping so 409$ compared to 209 plus 30$ for the plexi door. That is quite a savings, the weight makes heating easier as it holds heat for so long. It is harder to move but I rarely move mine. Each has advantages and disadvantages for me neither is clearly better.

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Wow where did you find a 48x24x16 for $409? That's an insanely high price. I can get an AP T-13 48x30x18 for $410 shipped. Now a Boaphile 422d which is 48x24x17.5 is $419 shipped but imo those are too expensive. The good thing about them is you can add onto them as needed so you can make a 8' cage but again the price on them is expensive. Ed from Constrictors NW is going to start up with Pro-Line cages again in April and I got a 48x24x14 from him for $250 shipped. Now sure if you look at stuff like Showcase cages or Vision cages, those are expensive which is why I recommended AP cages to the OP as they get very good reviews and people love them plus their prices are very reasonable. Heck the T-10 48x24x15 is $250 shipped. The only downside is it seems to take about 3 months to get the cages once you place the order.

Also glass is a very poor insulator yet weighs a ton. Why do you think most new houses use double or triple paned windows now. Its to give air pockets between the panes which act as insulation. Single paned windows or tanks in this case bleed heat. For me, I clearly see a lot more advantages with using PVC or HDPE cages but to each their own I guess. I think you are the first person I have ever met who actually likes glass tanks over PVC or HDPE cages or I should say advocates for them. I will say they make good temporary homes but like I said, I wouldn't want to use one to house a 6-10' snake in.

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Originally Posted by nicoleebriannee

Do you guys like rack systems? I like how compact and controlled they are but are you still able to give the snakes a photo period? I thought they needed the light cycle so it didn't mess up their eyes. I think I'd like the PVC better though since they're stackable, relatively compact and pretty.

Plus hearing the weight difference makes me pretty happy :P

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Racks are great if you are breeding and you keep them in a fairly warm room. An enclosed rack system(with solid sides and back) would hold flexwatt heat a lot better but having never used one before, I'm not sure how much above room temp they will raise the tubs. But if you are looking for something to display animals in, I would vote for PVC cage stacks plus the advantage is every cage will have belly heat and ambient heat except the bottom cage unless you put down flexwatt for the bottom cage :D

Originally I wanted to display them but its a little hard on the animals when they're out in the open. vivs are a little difficult to keep maintained and looking nice too. Our cat stresses the ones in the glass terrariums to death, Lol. I think I mentioned that in a previous reply, but yeah. I do like the looks of the PVCs, especially since they come in shelves as well, the stupid cat won't be able to bother them that way.

One day I hope to have a big reptile room.

Ive seen some rack systems that are pretty nice, but I recently heard a horror story about some yahoo who didn't have a therm regulator on his heat tape and literally cooked all of his snakes in the rack. That scared the hell out of me. Poor little things.

I'm thinking I'd like to breed these boas when they're big enough here in a couple years though. Might consider a rack for that and also for when the babies will be born. They'll have a little hatchling rack until I can find homes for them.

Which brings me to another interesting question for the future - The male is 100% anery het hypo monster tail, and the female is a hypo ghost. I'm curious what their offspring would be like since I'm a little fuzzy on the genetics right now.

I'll definitely have to work on that before I even consider breeding though. I don't want to mess anything up. Research research research!

Well I don't breed but is your male an anery type 1 or 2? Just from my lack of knowledge and guessing, the female doesn't make sense to me as a ghost is 2 genes(anery and hypo) so from what you listed of the female, is she a super hypo? As for the male, unless im mistaken boas aren't het for hypo as it is a co dom gene in them, so your male should be either anery het monster tail(although im not sure monster tail is actually a gene per say or if it is just a trait) or it should be ghost het monster tail or just a ghost monster tail. the reason is a ghost is an anery+hypo and then the monster tail like I said im not sure if that is actually a gene or just a trait and the female being a ghost means she is anery+hypo and then you say she is hypo again also so I guess a super hypo ghost /shrug. So going off the assumption that you have a male ghost and a female ghost, you should come out with anery, hypo and possible super hypo. If they are anery type 2, then the same applies. But if one is anery type 1 and one is anery type 2, then it all changes. Of course take all this with a grain of salt as I don't personally breed but I know enough to make myself dangerous :D

I do like glass, I like PVCx too. I have 6 of each. Add a few other types too here and there (custom using specialized materials). I can't say one is better they are about the same to me. Just different. Glass heats easier using less power to heat through. They also hold heat longer (mass, or density) so the heat is on less. This reduces the power bill. They also resist spikes caused by on off stats (not that I use any) but many do. Glass is way way easier to clean. PVCx holds heat better but is equally harder to heat through. It is ok to clean if seals at the cuts but can stain and sags by times. (you can very quickly add a bit of insulation to the glass tank to hold in some heat) They are stupidly heavy and scary to bang around, this is the big downside to me. I think PVCx is a better look and stacks better and can be modified easily, drilling glass is not easy! 50/50. I think that especially for smaller snakes a small side turned tank is quite a win. Small tanks are very cheap and side turned solves all the open top issues. Better than a tub anyday, and as good as a pvcx enclosure in the 15-30 gal size for sure.

I am in Canada, every pvcx enclosure must be shipped I bought a vision (roto mould) ages ago and the shipping and duty doubled the price. The canadian suppliers are more expensive but there is no import costs so it works out, but the shipping is the killer. Tanks I can pick up off the shelf, even larger tanks are cheaper. (55g bigger gets dumb but a 55 side turned is a big enclosure)

I don't think it matters what the enclosure is the keeper makes it the difference, the rest is just preference. I have enough experience that glass tanks pose no issues at all, PVCx, rotos, tubs, and metals too it does matter I have set up all of them and had no massive issues they are just different.

nicoleebriannee I am not a huge fan of racks. I own one and use it but i don't love it. I because of my home heating the room is not very practical and the most difficult heating I have encountered is the rack in a cool room. Ultra pain in the butt, they save space but that is about it. If you have an open top tub rack they take as long to clean as anything else (per drawer) and if you are a big person (like me 6'4" 260lbs) it is a lot of bashed elbows trying to reach the back. I too prefer a stack of enclosures.I think any enclosure type offers a versatility of heating that you can't get with a rack.

I'll agree, heating through PVC is kind of a pain but I never use UTHs, even on my glass tanks. Everything I have is heated with either RHPs for PVC or CHEs for glass tanks. I use 2"+ aspen as bedding so UTHs to me are useless. And yeah I guess in Canada ordering to US the shipping would kill you. Here its usually included in the price or in the case of AP cages, its anywhere from $45-$75 depending on the size and where in the US. And yeah for a small snake, a glass tank is easy and usually cheap but for a 6' snake you need a minimum 4x2 cage and an 8' snake you need 6x2 minimum. A lot of people use smaller but to me, the length+depth of the cage should equal the total length of the snake at minimum.