I did not want to hijack the thread that I saw this advice in

First let me say that I am not against using small enclosures for small snakes. There are many reasons a small enclosure can be the right choice. Still,in the time I have been on these forums, I have seen the following claim come up several times. Someone will have a small (70-150gram) python in a 20 gallon aquarium. Almost immediately a commenter will emphatically recommend a smaller enclosure since young Ball Pythons are stressed by large enclosures. I have to take issue with this idea. In fact, I believe the idea is complete bumpkiss. I suspect it was invented by pet shops looking to sell more enclosures, and quoted by well meaning hobbyists who simply had not given it much thought. I offer the following as evidence to support my point. For many millions of years Ball Python neonates have been raised in a very large enclosure


This large enclosure is called Africa. I am not sure how many gallons Africa can enclose, but I am certain it is in the many billions of gallons larger than 20.


Furthermore baby Ball Pythons have evolved a series of sophisticated behaviors that allow them to cope with large enclosures. They have become nocturnal to limit the time they are exposed to diurnal predators like birds, and they have developed a predilection for very small spaces. Baby Ball Pythons generally cram themselves into these small spaces in order to protect themselves from larger predators. Remember, when thinking about the enclosure that Ball Pythons live in naturally, there is no enclosure. If Ball Pythons were stressed by overly large enclosures, the species would have gone extinct many millennia ago. In reality is not the size of the enclosure that baby Ball Pythons find intimidating, but rather the lack of appropriately small hiding spaces.


Following this line of reasoning, it seems to me that as long as many appropriate sized hides are included in an enclosure, it does not matter to the snake whether of not the enclosure is large or small. The most important thing is to ensure that the husbandry is correct within the enclosure. Of course a small enclosure may be easier to heat and maintain, so it makes little sense to build enclosures that are overly large. Still if only a large enclosure is available, or one has already been purchased, there is no need to downsize the enclosure. If one has a small BP in a large enclosure, it is best to supply as many small hiding spaces as possible, so that the snake can find one that suits it needs. I usually purchase several sizes of pvc pipe: elbow sections, straight sections, and three way connectors. I then simply snap the sections together into random shapes and put several of them into the cage. Smaller snakes get smaller diameter pipes, and I increase the size as the snake grows.


I also like to shred some newspaper in a cross cut shredder and make a pile of shredded paper for the snake to burrow in. Many neonates are happy to curl up just under the surface of the pile. In my experience, neonates generally find a favorite place fairly quickly and spend 90 % of their time impersonating a rock. They tend to settle in and eat well. Of course if a keeper has many small neonates, small shoeboxes or small tubs may be an optimal way to maximize space, but such a set up is for the keeper not the snake.


When I first acquire a small snake, I usually use a Sterilite or Rubbermade container with a locking lid. I use bulldog binder clips to make sure the snake cannot push the lid off. I use a 31 Quart container because it is easy to stack, and takes up little space. These containers hold heat and moisture very well, and are easy to sterilize. They are lighter than glass, and easy to drill for ventilation. I generally use a water heat system, since it never gets hot enough to burn a snake. After the first six moths, I build a custom acrylic enclosure designed to accommodate the maximum adult length of the snake. Regardless of the size of the snake, when it leaves quarantine, it goes straight into an adult sized cage. This system works well and in the long run is much less expensive than constantly upgrading enclosures as the snake grows


If any one has any evidence that ball pythons do not do well in large tanks with numerous correctly sized hides, I would love to see it.


David

Very well said, personally I completely agree. I've personally kept an adult ball python in a (approximately) 100 gallon custom enclosure, she loved every inch of it. Before that she had a 20 gallon the first 2 years.

I agree. I never bought into the smaller enclosure camp myself. In fact, I believe Paul from England brought this same subject up a few a few months ago.

There are a few suppositions in your argument I don't buy, sorry.

They don't use all the space in Africa for a start as you say. Nor can we replicate the range of conditions it offers. So forget about it. Any argument that starts with "In the wild" usually ends up with an idiot at both ends of it. :P

We basically try and emulate the hides and burrows they inhabit most of the time then eliminate the need to leave them for food.

Now on your other points it varies by snake to snake really. You are right in that most ball pythons will adapt readily to the environment if it has enough security, humidity and heat. However you do not need a particularly large enclosure to provide all that. In fact making it larger can cause problems in creating them.

And of course on forums you have to deal with the experience level of the keeper as well as the needs of the individual snake. It's perfectly true that your snake will tell you what it wants and needs if you listen to it but for the first couple of months it will be speaking in Klingon and you will be listening in radio waves.

Just my 2p worth. :oops:

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Originally Posted by dr del

it varies by snake to snake really.. :oops:

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This.

My baby ball python is in his 40 gallon and uses every inch of it. He always has been a "brave" little baby;) some snakes however may not enjoy exploring and find that all the space is pretty threatening or overwhelming. But, as everyone else has said as long as the snake has many hides to feel comfortable in, go as big as you please.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'm with Del on this one. You can make the same case with other animals that have a FAR bigger range than Ball Pythons. Dogs for example, in the wild they will travel in big packs and travel large distances, we keep them in our houses. Horses, once again pack animals that will move over a large area of land, most are kept in small fields and in tiny packs, often alone. And birds? Huge open areas to fly, most cooped up in cages for extended periods of time... A Ball Python is a solitary animal, we provide that, we provide the heat they need and the food they need, as they would get naturally in the wild. They do not move far in the wild, will often stay in the same place for long periods of time, as you most often see in the behaviours of our own pythons. They get given far more appropriate living conditions when it comes to the wild than most pets in my opinion.

Many things work, large enclosure can work, enclosure with no hides can work, so does multiple housing, not providing a hot spot and feeding within 24 hours of arrival.

The problem is it's not about what works for an EXPERIENCED keeper it's about recommending OPTIMUM husbandry methods PROVEN to work which means those method will help new owners solve the issues they are experiencing.

How do I know they are proven to work, personal experience (I like testing and experimenting ) and the number of people I have help trouble shooting issues over the years (got to be at least one or two [emoji57] )

Im so glad things go nicer here than they did when i joined. This would have been ugly fast with the people around...

I kind of support a different form of arguement. From our research on the NARA and other various herp sites, and interrogating alot of breeders, Bigger tanks should be 2/3 the snakes lenth long and 1/2 its length wide. We use a 40g breeder for our baby. The more it was planted, the comfier it is to her. Also a hardcore supporter of using uva and uvb for the snake(many posts in the end of the full spectrum debate). The thing we stand firm on is, the closer to all natural for Shiva the better. Shes even got a diy fogger. We slightly fluxuate temp a degree or 2 daily(always in safe limits) vary humidity, and misting(still making a rain machine). Because we feel nature is never 100% the same on a daily basis. Never a health issue. Never a hunger strike.

I am all about this debate, as learning the behaviors of other owner and their snakes, can be a valuable learning experience for everyone.

Bam! Nature!!!!

http://i1301.photobucket.com/albums/...psjpagylk1.jpg


I hope this debate stays alive guys.

Kris, I'm sure the topic will stay alive for many years to come as opinions on the topic can be quite strong and passionate.

Personally I'm relatively new to keeping BP's, so I tend to listen to those that I see have been around a long time and have experiences they can share. In the end all of us are going to make a lot of the same mistakes others who have come before us have made but that's all part of the learning process.

I have noticed that most often the topic comes up when a discussion is started regarding picky eaters. I recently picked up a 50 gram hatchling that was giving me a hard time with feeding so I switched her to a 6 quart tub. Now the problem is I can't tell if it was the switch from the 28 quart tub to the 6 that did it or the fact that I found live mouse hoppers that were really tiny. Now that she is eating confidently and aggressively I've swapped out the 6 and gone back to the 28 without any problems in her eating pattern.

As for comments on the OP I tend to prefer the Reptile Basics hides over PVC pipe just because I like to to a quick check in the AM and PM every day to see how everyone is doing and lifting the hide for a second allows me a quick peek. I would think it would be hard to see one of my snakes if they were in a pipe, at least hard to see if their eyes are in blue or not. Plus I would hate to have to shake out the pipe to get the snake out on days I want to weigh or handle it. Perhaps it's not an issue I don't know but that's what would worry me. Everything else David said sounded fine to me but then again so did everything Deborah and Derek said as well.

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Originally Posted by C2tcardin

Everything else David said sounded fine to me but then again so did everything Deborah and Derek said as well.

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Yeah, same with me. I honestly don't think it makes much difference, 32qt for an adult male will suffice, 50qt may be bigger, but if you are arguing that 'they have all of Africa' then what difference is 18qt's?

It has been shown for years that they live healthy lifestyles living as most people keep them, but it is all personal preference. At the end of the day, if you have 150 snakes, you aren't going to keep them in 3ft long viv's. Just not going to happen. You will have a rack system with tubs.

Mine also even though a big girl can be shy about eating. I also feed in a seperate tub and usually put a towel over it. She was shy when we got her and it worked, so we stuck with it. I mean ive showed local kids and taught them about the snake and all our frogs so she eats fine uncovered. But it made her more secure to begin with so now its habit. All kinds of quirks and fine detail but it all makes that extra difference. Because i dont care for pvc systems personally, doesnt mean i have the right to crap on people because most have a large success rate. Its just our preferance.

Btw we saw a study somewhere(forget atm) about how the ink on newapaper, because there is always some excess inks, and in general can be known to cause health problems after a while in reptiles and amphibians. Anyone else hear about, know, or experience anything?

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Originally Posted by Kris Mclaughlin

Because i dont care for pvc systems personally, doesnt mean i have the right to crap on people because most have a large success rate. Its just our preference.

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Of course not, I have my adult male in a viv. But practically, I can't continue that if I want to keep more, hence the reason that I am moving to tubs. I don't know many people who moan about others giving their animals more space, apart from when it is a massive tank with no cover.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kris Mclaughlin

Btw we saw a study somewhere(forget atm) about how the ink on newapaper, because there is always some excess inks, and in general can be known to cause health problems after a while in reptiles and amphibians. Anyone else hear about, know, or experience anything?

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it most likely does. I can't imagine it would be good for any living creature to be absorbing ink into their skin.

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Originally Posted by nightrainfalls

If any one has any evidence that ball pythons do not do well in large tanks with numerous correctly sized hides, I would love to see it.

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There are no double blind studies I am aware of either way....large tank or small tub.

Dear Kris,

You concern about ink has been brought up in farming related husbandry. Here is a summary of results. http://ohioline.osu.edu/cd-fact/0122.html Most inks in newspapers are non-toxic to most animals. The inks are generally considered stable. Unless the animal grazes on the paper it should not be an issue. I will look for an actual study on this tonight. I know one was done, though unfortunately not on pythons. I'll get you all the information I can.

David

I think really only the evidence we have is the people who had trouble getting a new snake to eat, move it to a smaller enclosure, with the same hide, and then it eats. I wouldn't call that bupkis personally, however it is very unscientific and a conspiracy among pet shops is a little silly to me. Our hobby has been suggesting those 1 dollar tubs since before I got in. I think it benefits Target more than pet shops.

Way I see it is there is a cookie cutter way to give someone the best chance of success. Small enclosure, dual hide, ect. It's not that, that is the only way to keep a snake, it is just the general way to set someone up without knowing the animal and the new keeper not knowing much of anything. A small tub has been a good baseline for many keepers.

Once you learn what normal behavior is, you might start doing things to tailor to your snakes needs or your needs. Personally how I take care of my snakes breaks about half of what's in our care sheet and I'm pretty sure some people would treat me like one of those craigslist posts because they seem to think there is only one way to do things. I think most of us here however can agree there are multiple ways to have healthy happy snakes. While I completely agree with what your post is about, the hides in the enclosure matter more than the enclosure itself. I wouldn't completely dismiss the small enclosure all together. You can ask the 80% of my snakes that don't have a hide at all :)

Like has already been mentioned, much of what is recommended to new keepers (such as a small enclosure size) is not necessarily the only way to do things, it's just the most foolproof way to do things. I'm sure an experienced keeper could set up a 150 gallon aquarium in a way that doesn't upset a BP, but I wouldn't trust someone new to the hobby to do that. IMO it falls into the category of 'if you have to ask if it can be done, you probably aren't experienced enough to do it'.

Man oh man. Sorry lol. I can kind of agree on the hide thing. Shiva lover her corner rock on the hot side. But on the cool side she could care less. We usually found on top of the cool hide anyways. We replaced it with a decent sized fake stump, loooves it. Its open on the sides around the roots. Sometimes shes under it, on it, half in n out, wrapped, blah blah...

Snakes deffinatly have needs and personalities that need to be sought out as an individual. This is up to the keeper to do. But, alot of people have a hard time understanding their behavior. So it makes it difficult. We spend massive amounts of time with all of our animals.
Our snake, pacman frog, 2 red eye leaf frogs, 10 firebelly toads of mixes species, the 5green anoles and 2 long tail grass lizards that share a 55g, 2 pits, the cat, and of course my newly teenage daughter(FML). So yes knowledge does grow with time. Were here to share it and see what comes out when it all boils off.

I actually agree with Deborah the enclosure is not what makes the difference the keeper does. I have had baby royals be perfectly happy in a 36x24x18, never miss a meal. I also have enough experience to be able to fully control every aspect of husbandry in an enclosure this size. Not everyone has the necessary experience to dial a large space in perfectly . It is easier to learn on a small space than a large one, by the time the snake grows the keeper has learned as well, or some do. I have seen my fair share of racks not set up well and non feeding stressed animals inside, tubs too. I personally have never had a small snake refuse once it was settled in. I don't think it has anything much to do with the snake, and everything to do with the keeper.

Well, I am one of the people who advocate for smaller enclosures for hatchlings and smaller bp's. Especially when I hear of feeding issues and defensive displays from hatchlings in these threads. True that the smaller hides and more availability of smaller hides can serve the purpose when using a larger enclosure. That's fine. My thing is why start out that way if you have something smaller to work with. Not that you have to give up the larger enclosure but if possible let's try to downsize the enviornment and excess space and begin from there. I don't think you can compare the wilds of Africa to the captive confines of a tub or a tank as it relates to space. Why? Because in the wild there is a set of rules of survival that can't be replicated in captivity. Larger enclosures tend to expose the hatchling and younger bp to perceived dangers that really are not present but they perceive them to be present because they are exposed. Smaller enclosures are more of a security blanket in a security blanket. When a human baby is born, it sleeps in a crib, travels in a stroller and plays in the arms of an adult. They don't sleep in king sized beds ,they don't even play in playpens and they definitely don't enjoy being left out in the open. Give the baby bp what he requires ,security of a tight space and the simplicity of a smaller living space. Stay in peace and not in pieces. :gj:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kris Mclaughlin

Btw we saw a study somewhere(forget atm) about how the ink on newapaper, because there is always some excess inks, and in general can be known to cause health problems after a while in reptiles and amphibians. Anyone else hear about, know, or experience anything?

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Dear Chris,

You bring up and interesting point. I use newspaper as mulch in my vegetable garden, and in my reptile enclosures. I have checked into the possibility that newspaper mulch is toxic, both to myself and my pets. I am providing the following information regarding the background on the types of inks used in newspaper, industry recommendations for use of newspaper in agriculture and livestock husbandry, and studies on ink toxicity. First, let me say that in the past newspaper ink was mildly toxic. In the past it has contained lead, and cadmium. Currently, at least in the United States, lead based inks are not permitted and the majority of black newsprint uses some mixture of a highly refined carbon black and mineral oil or vegetable based soy carriers along with certain trace inorganic pigments. Since newspaper is a massive source of waste, the EPA actually keeps tight controls on the toxicity of the newspaper ink. You can read more about the materials used in newspaper inks at the following sources. http://www.usink.com/acrobat/whatisink.pdf The Chicago Tribune actually makes explicit statements about the safety of using its papers as compost http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...nk-soybean-oil Ohio State University has done considerable research in this field and found

One major concern for livestock producers and consumers is the safety of livestock bedded on newspaper containing inks. Until 10 years ago, lead, cadmium and other toxic heavy metals were commonly used in paper inks.
Now, however, most publishers use organic pigments. Most of these pigments are the same as those used in tattoos, lipstick, hair coloring and other cosmetics.
You may have seen the "soy ink" symbol on a newspaper, which tells the reader that the newspaper company is using soy based inks for printing. Soy inks are derived from soybeans, one of Ohio's largest cash crops.
A Pennsylvania State University study of beef steers bedded on newspaper for 140 days revealed no detectable traces of heavy metals in the blood or liver tissues of the animals. It was noted that the paper used was primarily "black on-white" newsprint and contained a very limited amount of colored inks. Cornell University researchers fed pelletized newspaper at rates of up to 10 percent of the total diet to dairy cows and found no significant risk to human or bovine health.
The newspaper industry has made great efforts to generate a non-toxic waste stream. Printed matter from advertising inserts, catalogs and magazines, however, is not subject to the same voluntary controls of ink quality. Unregulated paper products for bedding of animals that provide meat and milk should be used with caution. http://ohioline.osu.edu/cd-fact/0136.html

Unfortunately, for economic reasons, studies have not been carried out on pythons and potential for toxicity, but they have been carried out for many other animals, including most forms of livestock. Studies on live stock have looked for increases in toxins in meat and milk. Obviously if toxins leached out of newspaper bedding, or were absorbed after bedding was ingested, it could not be used for human food production. These studies have found that black newsprint paper does not significantly increase toxin levels in any animal studied. http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/pubnwsltr/TRIM/10852.pdf

Here is a discussion of ink toxicity it humans:

There are three ways ink can have contact with the human body. There is dermal absorption (through the skin), inhalation of ink particles into the respiratory tract (breathing), or ingestion through the mouth and into the digestive system (eating).
There is little threat of dermal absorption of ink or its ingredients once the ink is dry because the ink has achieved its stable state. The ingredients that were potentially absorbable become dry and are no longer able to be absorbed. Lead, which can be absorbed through the skin, was banned as an ingredient in ink by the EPA in 1985 and is, therefore, no longer a threat. Stall trials concluded that the ink rub-off from printed newsprint was not a concern for animals.
Inhalation is a concern only when the ink is in liquid form either in transportation or at the place of production. Particle droplets and evaporation of active ingredients are a concern because they can be inhaled if proper prevention techniques are not practiced during the printing of the newspapers. Again, however, once the ink is applied to the paper and dried, it is stable and there is little danger of inhaling ink particulates. There is a threat of inhalation of dust from finely shredded paper. In this case, the concern is over fibrous inhalation rather than the toxicity. To avoid fibrous inhalation, stall trial results suggest using shreds at least 1 inch x 1 1/2 inch or larger.
Ingestion of inks used on newsprint has not been an issue because the ingredients used in the inks are not considered toxic in either the liquid or dry state. The only animal that showed an indication of grazing on the newspaper bedding was the horse and the grazing was in limited amounts. No other animals indicated any interest in the newsprint as a food source.
These trials and ink references are for the black inks used in newsprint. The trials do not include the waxed or glossy inserts or supplements that accompany newspapers, nor does it include colored inks used on those publications. http://ohioline.osu.edu/cd-fact/0122.html Please note, this summary contains references for the actual studies mentioned in several other summaries.

There is some conflicting data on ink toxicity, which to be fair, I must present. The following study was designed to explore the occupational dangerous of dealing with printers inks. The ingredient in black ink, carbon black, when extracted with benzene has been shown to be carcinogenic, though carbon black itself is not carcinogenic. Furthermore, mineral oils which are currently being displaced by other alternatives have been shown to be skin irritants when applied directly to skin in liquid form. The study detailing these findings and the background of these finding is https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/htdocs/st_rpts/tox017.pdf . The study is excellent, but applies more to long term liquid exposure to actual ink, not to ink absorbed in paper. Mineral oil that is not well refined can also contain trace carcinogenic impurities. Studies differ on whether carbon black is mutagenic depending on the presence of nitropyrenes. The study involved cutaneous application of ink directly to the skin of mice and rats for 13 weeks. Local skin irritation was found, and female rats had a statistically significant but small loss in weight compared to controls. The amounts of ink these animals were exposed to were artificially high, because the study was designed to evaluate occupational risks of using inks in printing rooms. It should be noted that dried carbon black would not contain benzene, since benzene is an aromatic compound that rapidly evaporates. Mineral oil is often used medicinally and purchased for human consumption. http://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-15...e-oral/details Considering the bulk of the data, it seems likely that newspaper is safe to use as mulch in gardens and as animal bedding. The toxicity of the specific chemicals used is small, and the exposure is very low or non existent.

There is one small area for uncertainty. The safety of this material has never been studied in reptiles. Considering the facts-- the majority of the ink found in newsprint is dried and stable in the fibers of the paper, pythons do not ingest newspaper except by accident, the dangerous materials in ink are likely to evaporate long before the paper is used as substrate, and the relatively impervious nature of snake skin-- it is highly unlikely that newspaper is in any way toxic to pythons. This is probably true of most bedding's.

David

All I can say is wow. That is great information to have thank you for the solution to one of the greatest questions in my house. My poor $50 phone is having a hemmorage trying to keep up with larger web pages, lol

nightrainfalls interesting, my concerns with paper products was never inks, but dioxins present in some papers. The papers in my area some are white paged others the typical grey. I would think this would be of larger concern. Dioxins are one of the 'dirty dozen' chemicals and cause all kinds of havoc on humans, and lab animals. I feel safe in believing that capitals reptiles are likely not immune either.

It is my understanding that Dioxins are produced during paper bleaching and discarded in effluent. The Dioxins then bio-accumulate in lipids inside animals. Most dioxin exposure comes from food. I apologize that I am not aware of any report suggesting newspaper contains dioxin or that it can accumulate in the body as a result of contact with paper. Your point is an interesting one, and I intend to look into it further. Thank you very much for raising the point.

David

I have spent the last fifty minutes or so researching the problems with dioxins in paper. It seems like dioxins are found primarily in papers bleached with chlorine. Newsprint is actually steamed, mechanically broken down, and bleached with peroxides, so dioxin should be very low in newsprint. http://www.weyerhaeuser.com/Business...t/PaperProcess I found one study that referenced dioxin levels in newspaper based on dioxin levels measured in the smoke of combusted newspaper. The study found that dioxin was present in the amount of .186ng/g. http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...vinyl_chloride) Nanograms are shocking small measurements, so finding less than 2/10s of a nanogram per gram suggests an incredibly small potential exposure, so Newsprint paper should not be a source of dioxin toxicity. Interestingly enough, coffee filters may be a significant contributor to dioxin exposure.

David

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Originally Posted by dr del

There are a few suppositions in your argument I don't buy, sorry.

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Suppositions are uncertain beliefs, I am quite certain that Ball Pythons are indigenous to Africa, at that they have lived there many millions of years.

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Originally Posted by dr del

They don't use all the space in Africa for a start as you say.

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Actually, I never said that. In fact I said almost exactly the opposite. Here is what I actually said, "Furthermore baby Ball Pythons have evolved a series of sophisticated behaviors that allow them to cope with large enclosures. They have become nocturnal to limit the time they are exposed to diurnal predators like birds, and they have developed a predilection for very small spaces. Baby Ball Pythons generally cram themselves into these small spaces in order to protect themselves from larger predators. Remember, when thinking about the enclosure that Ball Pythons live in naturally, there is no enclosure." Cramming oneself into the smallest space possible is not logically equivalent to using all the space in Africa. In fact, it is quite the opposite. The behavior is space avoidance mechanism. Again I am quite certain that Ball Pythons are largely nocturnal, and frequent small spaces that they use as hides, so there are no suppositions here either. I will however give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you did not deliberately misrepresent what I said in order to create a straw man argument. I will assume that you just did not understand the point being made. I must have been unclear. I apologize for being unclear. This is my point: Ball Pythons have evolved to live without enclosures, since no enclosure is essentially an infinitely large enclosure, there is no way that an enclosure can be too large for a Ball Python. Ball Pythons adapt to too much space by seeking small spaces that provide refuge from the dangers of large spaces. As long as such small spaces are available, and husbandry conditions are met, the python will use natural coping strategies and acclimate to its environment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Nor can we replicate the range of conditions it offers. So forget about it.

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I never thought about it, so no need to forget about it. At no point in my post did I ever suggest that tanks should in any way replicate Africa. In fact I advocated the use of newspaper substrate and PVC hides. Neither of these things are particularly reminiscent of the wilds of Africa. Aside from keeping temperature and humidity in ranges that Ball Pythons evolved to deal with, nothing in my husbandry advice even came close to suggesting that it was desirable to replicate Africa. I did suggest that keepers might take advantage of long evolved behaviors that pythons use to deal with large spaces.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Any argument that starts with "In the wild" usually ends up with an idiot at both ends of it.

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This is leaving a lot of field biologists scratching there heads wondering why they spend so much time studying ecology.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

We basically try and emulate the hides and burrows they inhabit most of the time then eliminate the need to leave them for food.

Now on your other points it varies by snake to snake really. You are right in that most ball pythons will adapt readily to the environment if it has enough security, humidity and heat. However you do not need a particularly large enclosure to provide all that. In fact making it larger can cause problems in creating them.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

And of course on forums you have to deal with the experience level of the keeper as well as the needs of the individual snake. It's perfectly true that your snake will tell you what it wants and needs if you listen to it but for the first couple of months it will be speaking in Klingon and you will be listening in radio waves.

Just my 2p worth. :oops:

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I am not sure why we are discussing talking to snakes. I generally just set things up so the snake has choices and let the snake make its choices. I do not and never have claimed to know what the snake is thinking or saying. All I care about is making sure that the snake can choose parameters within its cage that suit it. As long as the snake has chosen a comfortable spot, and is doing well, I am happy. I am uncertain how the experience level of the keeper has an effect on what conditions the snake seeks out. Indeed it seems to me that since a less experienced keeper has less understanding of the snake, it is much more important for the new keeper to set up a safe range of temperature and humidity and then trust the snake to know what is best for it.

As the keeper becomes more advanced, he or she can experiment with alternative methods, narrow temperature and humidity ranges based on detailed notes of the snake preferences etc.

David