Why is he so small?

Marshall is extremely small. He eats great, is growing fast, but small for his age. When I first got him he was about 3 months old and only about 50 grams. Now, he is 6 months old and just over 100 grams. Is this a bad thing, or is he just a little gaffer?


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I don't know if it is the same for BPs, only having the one, but I've had literally that exact same thought about every male colubrid I've ever had.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

I don't know if it is the same for BPs, only having the one, but I've had literally that exact same thought about every male colubrid I've ever had.

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Huh, interesting. When I first joined this forum everyone kept telling me that I'm not feeding him large enough meals, but he really was far too small for a rat pup at the time! I actually love his adorably small size, I just find it odd.


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Originally Posted by gameonpython

Huh, interesting. When I first joined this forum everyone kept telling me that I'm not feeding him large enough meals, but he really was far too small for a rat pup at the time! I actually love his adorably small size, I just find it odd.


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Hatchling bp's can take rat pups. My banana male is maybe 8 months old and weighs over 700 grams now.

John

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Originally Posted by gameonpython

Huh, interesting. When I first joined this forum everyone kept telling me that I'm not feeding him large enough meals, but he really was far too small for a rat pup at the time! I actually love his adorably small size, I just find it odd.


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Maybe he was the runt of the clutch. 6 months old and 100 gms would make me think he is a bit small. That could turn around before you know it, especially with runts. As long as he is eating well I would go with that and increase the size and or frequency when you feel he can tolerate it. He probably will hit a growth spurt soon and make up the slow start. Good luck .:gj:

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Originally Posted by JMBall's

Hatchling bp's can take rat pups. My banana male is maybe 8 months old and weighs over 700 grams now.

John

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When they are 50 grams and the thickness of a quarter, I'm not so sure.


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Originally Posted by Albert Clark

Maybe he was the runt of the clutch. 6 months old and 100 gms would make me think he is a bit small. That could turn around before you know it, especially with runts. As long as he is eating well I would go with that and increase the size and or frequency when you feel he can tolerate it. He probably will hit a growth spurt soon and make up the slow start. Good luck .:gj:

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Yes, I was thinking he might be a bit of a runt as well. He is eating fabulously on weaned ASF, and putting on weight like crazy right now! In the past two weeks he's gained about 40 grams. Maybe he is starting that growth spurt;)


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you might find he looses half that gain when he poops. the only reliable weight is just after emptying themselves.

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Originally Posted by Paul's Pieds

you might find he looses half that gain when he poops. the only reliable weight is just after emptying themselves.

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Yes I am aware of that. I only weigh him after he poops.


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Every snake is different. Dottie went from a 102g 12" pipsqueak when I got her back at the end of November to now a 500g 3ft fat girl who destroys stuff now. As long as your snake is eating, pooping and shedding, then he is doing fine. Although 100g for a 6 month old is pretty small. You feeding him every week on an appropriate sized rat or mouse?

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Originally Posted by gameonpython

When they are 50 grams and the thickness of a quarter, I'm not so sure.


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Small Rat pups are about 15 grams, normally tiny, hatchlings should be able to handle one. That being said, have you seen the size difference in humans? Or any other animal in existence? They vary, sometimes dramatically. Yours might just be smaller end of the scale. It does seem really small however...

The size and age don't suprise me but hearing that he eats fine and is that small doesn't sound right. I have a male clown that I found on Craigslist that was 6 months and only 160g when I got him. He is now 11 months and only 190g. Husbandry is on a point and he's otherwise healthy but he is a major problem eater. He is strictly a mouse hopper eater. Won't take a rat pup, won't take anything larger then a mouse hopper, won't take f/t. He also will only eat for 3 weeks consecutively then he goes off for a month or so before eating for another 2-3 weeks.
If your snake is a good consistant eater then you might try feeding more often. Feed every 5 days til he gets to 500g

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Originally Posted by aLittleLessButter

The size and age don't suprise me but hearing that he eats fine and is that small doesn't sound right. I have a male clown that I found on Craigslist that was 6 months and only 160g when I got him. He is now 11 months and only 190g. Husbandry is on a point and he's otherwise healthy but he is a major problem eater. He is strictly a mouse hopper eater. Won't take a rat pup, won't take anything larger then a mouse hopper, won't take f/t. He also will only eat for 3 weeks consecutively then he goes off for a month or so before eating for another 2-3 weeks.
If your snake is a good consistant eater then you might try feeding more often. Feed every 5 days til he gets to 500g

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I had IMMENSE trouble with my female Lesser! I got her June last year I think, and she has only just started to eat properly. She wouldn't strike at all, if she did strike it was out of fear and she would bite then let go and hide, I got her to eat twice in a period of 6 months. I handed her over to my local reptile store owners, and they had her feeding properly again in a few months, just got her back and she is perfect!

Bath her in an electrolyte bath, don't resort to feeding the small prey constantly, after a while it will go for what you are trying to feed it, try braining the prey item, double and triple check your husbandry and even change things around in the tank, it may not feel comfortable with how things are, regardless of your husbandry. There are tons you can do to change a picky eater. Mine was about 150g at a year, she in now 3 months older and nearly 300g.

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Originally Posted by George1994

Bath her in an electrolyte bath, don't resort to feeding the small prey constantly, after a while it will go for what you are trying to feed it, try braining the prey item, double and triple check your husbandry and even change things around in the tank, it may not feel comfortable with how things are, regardless of your husbandry. There are tons you can do to change a picky eater. Mine was about 150g at a year, she in now 3 months older and nearly 300g.

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He is in a rack with back heat controlled by herpstat4 which also controls my other 2 racks. Hotspot 90 ,cool side 81, humidity 60. Blue shop paper towel substrate. He has 3 hides among other things ive added to make his space a little more cluttered. I've tried a few different things; different hides, more clutter, changing which slot on the rack he's in. All changes were made weeks apart from each other to prevent stress. No matter what the change, his habits are the same: on for 3 weeks, off for a month. I tried bathing him once as recomended by someone on here but didn't make a difference. Many say bathing is more of a stresser anyway so I avoid it. Not sure what you mean by "electrolyte bath".
I have 7 balls total which I've had for a year, all doing great. Everyone eats every week except for my clown

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Originally Posted by aLittleLessButter

He is in a rack with back heat controlled by herpstat4 which also controls my other 2 racks. Hotspot 90 ,cool side 81, humidity 60. Blue shop paper towel substrate. He has 3 hides among other things ive added to make his space a little more cluttered. I've tried a few different things; different hides, more clutter, changing which slot on the rack he's in. All changes were made weeks apart from each other to prevent stress. No matter what the change, his habits are the same: on for 3 weeks, off for a month. I tried bathing him once as recomended by someone on here but didn't make a difference. Many say bathing is more of a stresser anyway so I avoid it. Not sure what you mean by "electrolyte bath".
I have 7 balls total which I've had for a year, all doing great. Everyone eats every week except for my clown

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Similar to my Lesser, these things happen with Ball Pythons at times. Most snap out of it after a while, took mine months and months!

Electrolyte bath -

http://www.captivebredreptileforums....lp-please.html

Another thing mentioned there is taking them for a drive! Don't know why, but this seems to work quite a bit when trying to get a feeding response. Put him in a bag, go for a drive with him for 15mins and try feeding him straight after!

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Originally Posted by George1994

Similar to my Lesser, these things happen with Ball Pythons at times. Most snap out of it after a while, took mine months and months!

Electrolyte bath -

http://www.captivebredreptileforums....lp-please.html

Another thing mentioned there is taking them for a drive! Don't know why, but this seems to work quite a bit when trying to get a feeding response. Put him in a bag, go for a drive with him for 15mins and try feeding him straight after!

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Thanks, I'll read more about the electrolyte bath. However, Im not gonna do the drive. I'd rather not risk him becoming stressed and staying off feed. I'm not upset over it. Hes not skinny or loosing weight. He is otherwise healthy. I'd like him to eat more and will continue occasionally tweeking things til he does but as long as he stays health and continues to eat I'm ok

My mojave is fairly similar. She's gained maybe 100 grams since I got her in September despite being a voracious eater and skipping maybe 3 meals total. She's become a little fatty, but refuses to actually grow at all. I'm sure mine is just due for a growth spurt, and probably yours as well. Frustrating, but not much we can do about it, so no use worrying over it.

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Originally Posted by gameonpython

Marshall is extremely small. He eats great, is growing fast, but small for his age. When I first got him he was about 3 months old and only about 50 grams. Now, he is 6 months old and just over 100 grams. Is this a bad thing, or is he just a little gaffer?

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Just out of curiosity, what do you feed him and how often? If you have the weights of the food, that would make it easier for me to get an idea of the size.

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Originally Posted by 200xth

Just out of curiosity, what do you feed him and how often? If you have the weights of the food, that would make it easier for me to get an idea of the size.

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I am feeding him 20-30 gram weaned ASF. I feed every 5 days.


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Originally Posted by George1994

Small Rat pups are about 15 grams, normally tiny, hatchlings should be able to handle one. That being said, have you seen the size difference in humans? Or any other animal in existence? They vary, sometimes dramatically. Yours might just be smaller end of the scale. It does seem really small however...

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All the rat pups I've seen are much bigger, but I guess it depends on where you get your rats. The ones that are sold here are 20-30 grams.


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Originally Posted by gameonpython

I am feeding him 20-30 gram weaned ASF. I feed every 5 days.


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You're feeding a 100g snake a 20g to 30g weaned ASF every 5 days and he's not growing quickly?

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Originally Posted by 200xth

You're feeding a 100g snake a 20g to 30g weaned ASF every 5 days and he's not growing?

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Oh he's definitely growing! He's gained about 40 grams in the past two weeks. He just seems so little for his age.


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Originally Posted by gameonpython

Oh he's definitely growing! He's gained about 40 grams in the past two weeks. He just seems so little for his age.

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So for 2.5 months, he went from 50 to 60 and then in the last two weeks he went from 60 to 100?

It doesn't really matter. I was just trying to put this together in my head. Whether he's small or not at the moment isn't really important in the end. If you keep feeding him like you are now, he'll catch up quickly on weight.

Sorry for any confusion, here's a pic of his weight times: http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...08fe2b0a6e.jpg
I got him in December, when he was about 50 grams, these weights start from January.


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Originally Posted by gameonpython

Sorry for any confusion, here's a pic of his weight times: I got him in December, when he was about 50 grams, these weights start from January.

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Gotcha. Thanks.

That looks pretty normal. He'll keep growing quickly with that feeding schedule you have him on now.

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Originally Posted by 200xth

Gotcha. Thanks.

That looks pretty normal. He'll keep growing quickly with that feeding schedule you have him on now.

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Sounds good.


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Rat pinkies and fuzzies should be plenty small enough.

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Originally Posted by aLittleLessButter

Rat pinkies and fuzzies should be plenty small enough.

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I wouldn't feed anything that small to anything but a very small hatchling. Anything around 100g should be able to take sub-adult mice or small rat pups.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

I wouldn't feed anything that small to anything but a very small hatchling. Anything around 100g should be able to take sub-adult mice or small rat pups.

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i agree but the OP said they can't feed rats because rat pups are too large

Her snake should be able to eat a rat pup but owner thinks they are too big

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Originally Posted by aLittleLessButter

Her snake should be able to eat a rat pup but owner thinks they are too big

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I agree, rat pups are not too big. Most people will tell you 10-15% of the snakes body weight for prey size. If you go by that rule of thumb you'd be feeding small hopper mice or large rat pinks to a 100g snake, I don't feed anything that small to anything but newborns fresh out of the egg. I've personally never weighed my rodents when feeding but will eyeball them and feed something about as big around as the snake is. As long as it leaves a visible bulge I'm satisfied. 10-15% of body weight may be good enough to maintain an adult but I think hatchlings need more then that if you expect any kind of decent growth rate out of them.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

I agree, rat pups are not too big. Most people will tell you 10-15% of the snakes body weight for prey size. If you go by that rule of thumb you'd be feeding small hopper mice or large rat pinks to a 100g snake, I don't feed anything that small to anything but newborns fresh out of the egg. I've personally never weighed my rodents when feeding but will eyeball them and feed something about as big around as the snake is. As long as it leaves a visible bulge I'm satisfied. 10-15% of body weight may be good enough to maintain an adult but I think hatchlings need more then that if you expect any kind of decent growth rate out of them.

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This 100%. I've never weighed feeders. They don't weigh them in the wild, they eat what ever looks to be appropriately sized prey. I go off of the size of the snakes midsection and also the individuals needs for that season

Oh dear is seems that there is some confusion.

At 100 grams(now) Marshall is eating 20-30 gram ASF, which is ultimately the same size as a small mouse or rat pup correct? So what I'm saying is I agree with everyone that he can handle this size.

When he was around 60 grams, I was getting told on this forum that he should be eating rat pups. He was only the thickness of a quarter, and a rat pup was far too big for him to handle. When in doubt, I will go smaller because I do not want a regurge. I was feeding him 10-15 gram hoppers at this time.

Does this make sense?


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Originally Posted by gameonpython

Oh dear is seems that there is some confusion.

At 100 grams(now) Marshall is eating 20-30 gram ASF, which is ultimately the same size as a small mouse or rat pup correct? So what I'm saying is I agree with everyone that he can handle this size.

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Sorry for the confusion, this sounds fine. You should have reasonable growth with this diet.

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Originally Posted by gameonpython

When he was around 60 grams...I was feeding him 10-15 gram hoppers at this time.

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Most of mine hatch out slightly bigger than that, but I do the same thing. Mouse hoppers twice a week until they are around 90g to 100g.

I switch them to once a week at 100g but other than that from what I saw, your feeding is very similar to mine as far as size and weight go.

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Originally Posted by 200xth

Most of mine hatch out slightly bigger than that, but I do the same thing. Mouse hoppers twice a week until they are around 90g to 100g.

I switch them to once a week at 100g but other than that from what I saw, your feeding is very similar to mine as far as size and weight go.

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That sounds almost exactly like what I am doing!


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You would be surprised at how big a prey ball pythons can eat. You cant compare the prey to their head size or you will be thrown way off. You need to look at their mid section and then get prey that is about 1.5 times bigger than the snakes mid section at the preys widest spot(usually the rear hips). The only snakes I would be careful of are BCC which can/will regurgitate if the prey is too big. Never seen a ball python regurgitate because prey was too big. Dottie has eaten rats so big(because of my miscalculation) that when she got it down she literally looked like she ate a football and she almost went into a food coma on the spot but more or less "waddled" back into her hide and I didn't see her for about 3 days :rofl:And this was when she was around 200-300g, now she just pounds weanling/small rats like they were pez candy at 500g.

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Originally Posted by Sauzo

You would be surprised at how big a prey ball pythons can eat. You cant compare the prey to their head size or you will be thrown way off. You need to look at their mid section and then get prey that is about 1.5 times bigger than the snakes mid section at the preys widest spot(usually the rear hips). The only snakes I would be careful of are BCC which can/will regurgitate if the prey is too big. Never seen a ball python regurgitate because prey was too big. Dottie has eaten rats so big(because of my miscalculation) that when she got it down she literally looked like she ate a football and she almost went into a food coma on the spot but more or less "waddled" back into her hide and I didn't see her for about 3 days :rofl:And this was when she was around 200-300g, now she just pounds weanling/small rats like they were pez candy at 500g.

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Why feed prey items 1.5x bigger? There isn't much need for that in my opinion. Sure you can do, but I can also put my head in an alligators mouth haha! Don't mean you really should. Same size as their widest point is comfortable for them to handle and provides a steady rate of growth if fed weekly.

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Originally Posted by George1994

Why feed prey items 1.5x bigger? There isn't much need for that in my opinion. Sure you can do, but I can also put my head in an alligators mouth haha! Don't mean you really should. Same size as their widest point is comfortable for them to handle and provides a steady rate of growth if fed weekly.

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Exactly. Ball pythons can and will regurgitate if the prey is too big, I for one am not going to take that risk. Slightly wider than the thickest point is okay, but 1.5 times bigger? Yikes!


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Originally Posted by gameonpython

Exactly. Ball pythons can and will regurgitate if the prey is too big, I for one am not going to take that risk. Slightly wider than the thickest point is okay, but 1.5 times bigger? Yikes!


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Which is exactly why you should pick food based on size and not weight.

Let me rephrase, 1.5x max. I always went by weight on my small snakes. Never had a problem personally have never had a regurgitate. I mean do what works for you. For me, like I said, I weighed my food out for my pied girl and she went from a 102g 12" baby to now almost 4 months later, she is 3ft and over 500g(haven't weighed her in awhile). Ball pythons aren't known for regurgitating like I said but a lot of BCC will regurgitate if fed too big of an item, thus why you generally feed them smaller prey. Same with BCI, they will eat pretty much anything, anytime, anywhere. And yes once ball pythons hit 500g, you go by eyeballing the food size and not by weight anymore but as a baby, a lot of new people say "oh no way my baby can eat a ray pup etc etc" but like I said, you would be surprised what they can eat and feeding them something like a pinkie or fuzzy is really just underfeeding them at their most crucial growth time, the first year. Again do what works for you but I am telling you what has worked for me with many many snakes.

I take that back, I had one regurgitate about 20 years ago and that from one of my Savannah Monitors which ate too big of a rat but that was only one monitor out of 3 different ones ive had. Never had any of my snakes regurgitate including my first ball python I ever had about 30 years ago when it was glass tanks or home made plywood/stud framed cages and heat lamps with mesh cages around them.