Do you oppose the hunts in Florida?

Some large snake species have become invasive to this country (USA.)
They are known to destroy natural habitat.
Seems like people just can't seem to take care of all of them. Just like cats.
Why continue to allow them?

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Originally Posted by Boomerang

Some large snake species have become invasive to this country (USA.)
They are known to destroy natural habitat.
Seems like people just can't seem to take care of all of them. Just like cats.
Why continue to allow them?

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Do you realize what you are saying? The hurricanes and tropical storms that have pervaded the state of Florida is the reason for the invading phenomena there. Absolutely is not the fault of giant Python keepers! Sure there have been some instances where some captive pythons have either escaped or been wrongly allowed to enter the wild by irresponsible owners. By far it has been the destruction caused by the severe storms. People who have lost their homes and institutions that housed these animals also destroyed by hurricanes and tropical storms subsequently causing the release into the environment. Reptile keepers are being made the sole reason for the South Florida problem and it is truly unfair and untrue! USFWS made this a National Law and its a travesty. We, along with USARK are prepared to fight this inappropriate legislation. USARK has filed a lawsuit to overturn this "Lacey act". We are donating and signing to and with USARK in solidarity and in action. Please join us! The whole nation of reptile keepers should not be responsible for a issue that is occurring in 1 state either! Stay in peace and not pieces. :gj:

I'm honestly wondering if you're trying to troll? If you're on the forum, or even just a snake owner I'd assume you HAVE to of heard about the recent new additions to the Lacey Act. And as a fellow animal lover, especially a reptile lover, you need to educate yourself on what's really going on. That destroying the environment thing is utter BS. By that logic why should we not be allowed to drive cars, use so much plastic, dump toxic waste, use so much electricity, invade wildlife habitat, etc because those things are WAY way more destructive than any snakes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guhvCMVq6Cg
http://ebnmedia.tv/episode-6/

Burms are not, and have never taken over the Everglades or any other part of the US. And there are no wild populations of anacondas or reticulated pythons in the US.

A great deal of the pythons invasive in the southern peninsula of Florida (because let's be specific, they aren't an invasive problem for the whole USA, just the southern most portion of the southern most state) ended up there from a hurricane destroying a building nearby the everglades that had housed them (I think it was Andrew, but I may have my dates wrong), or they are descendants of those original snakes. Now, Florida has taken steps to ensure keepers are not dumping their pets, requiring permits and micro chipping, and slapping a hefty fine on owners if their snakes are trapped and found there. The hunts... well I'm not opposed to hunting deer or rabbit, which are also introduced invasives, so I see no reason why wild pythons can not also be hunted or trapped to help control their populations.

Why continue to allow them... do you mean the hunts, or keeping the snakes? Because if you mean keeping snakes, then yeah, why allow anyone to keep any animal? Individuals have proven they are inept. There are feral cats everywhere. In several states, and growing in trend and number, there are also feral dog pack, which have already resulted in the deaths of humans, something which can't be said of the pythons. So why not ban everything? Ban all pets? Humans are clearly irresponsible and can never be trusted, ever.

Except we know that's not in the least bit true. It only takes a few bad apples to spoil the bunch, and in the case of snakes, which are already much maligned in the public eye, based on nothing more than ignorance and superstition, one bad apple is the only excuse that was needed. The Lacey ban was stupid legislation, based on a faulty and manipulated science model. Further, it does nothing but punish responsible owners. the irresponsible ones are going to ignore the law anyway, or resort to dumping their snakes when they can't take them with during a move, which is pretty much the exact opposite of helping.

Is this a serious post?

Why allow people to continue to eat bacon, when feral pigs have destroyed irreplaceable Hawaiian ecosystems? Why allow people to own cats or rats which make up much more harmful feral populations than snakes? The snakes are a south Florida problem ONLY. There is no reason for the rest of the country to be punished for a south Florida problem.

Not trolling, just looking for insight. Most posts of this type are more about "don't forget to sign this petition" without a why. I'm new here, getting to understand the community. I figured someone would get pissed off right out of the gate, but it's just a question.

An honest question should be phrased honestly.

"Hey guys, I have a question about the recent additions to the Lacey ban. Most posts of this type are more about "don't forget to sign this petition" without a why. I'm new here, getting to understand the community. Can you explain to me what's going on?"

Phrasing it as you did in your first post paints a picture of hostility, of starting on the other side of the debate already and accusing other reptile keepers of being irresponsible. On a forum dedicated to the responsible care and keeping of snakes, can you really BLAME anyone for getting "mad" about it?

Words have meaning. "Just a question," phrased as a conflict isn't "just a question".

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Originally Posted by Boomerang

I figured someone would get pissed off right out of the gate, but it's just a question.

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Figuring this you could have taken a bit more care in your phrasing - that is, if not upsetting folks was a concern. Basically, here's the situation. South Florida is a haven for non indigenous wildlife. While being the home for several large scale facilities it's also a major importing area and the weather is warm enough that many species can adapt to survive. Add in our rather volatile, inclement weather and it really was only a matter of time before one of the larger constrictors became established. There are literally hundreds of species of invasive plants and animals in South Florida, some have migrated outwards, some have not - burmese pythons being one of those isolated to the everglades and adjacent areas even though they have been in the wild here for 20+ years now. This is obviously a South Florida problem, that has already been handled by the state by the way, but is being used to amend federal laws - this is where most people have beef. These snakes are unable to survive outside a very specific microclimate, which is why they haven't migrated outward despite having been in the wild here for over two decades. Unfortunately, not much makes an easier target than the big, bad snake. They've been persecuted for thousands of years to the point that there's an ingrained fear and hatred in many folk who have never even had personal interactions with them.

I don't oppose trapping and humanely disposing of invasive species. I don't oppose a permit system for keeping certain animals. Florida has done an admiral job, in my opinion, with their efforts to curb accidental releases and weed out impulse buys from unqualified owners. In order to own certain species in the state a permit is required. Part of the application involves writing out a "disaster plan" in which you outline what will be done in the event of a disaster - power outage, hurricane, flood, fire, etc. We also have to get certain species microchipped once they reach a predetermined size so that if these animals are ever found in the wild the owner can be identified and prosecuted accordingly.

I strongly oppose amending federal laws based on bad science and fear mongering propaganda. This is and always will be a South Florida problem and it is already being dealt with by the state. The new additions to the Lacey Act are overkill to the extreme and this is why folks are rather on edge lately.

I'm in south florida and I've been out many times to search for whatever herps I could find. Not only have I never seen a python in the wild here, but I also don't think they are a problem. Let me put it this way: the harmless green iguanas are now seen and excepted as an introduced species that will always remain. Their only threat is dogs and the occasional below 60* cold fronts. There are a few immigrants who will eat the iguanas but that's only when it gets so cold that the damn things fall out of trees. Why are pythons any different? Because "snakes are too spooky"? Is it because a few were found eating alligators? Most of the people (not the ones who actually care and know what they are doing for Floridas "natural" environments) who want take part in hunting these snakes really just want to kill an animal and would kill alligators if they were "the problem." The only invasives I can find a problem with are fish (snakeheads will wreck everything in a matter of weeks) and several plants but that's because I can't fish without catching a snakehead or a bushel of aquatic plants that were not here 10 years ago. The Cuban knight anoles are about the meanest thing I've encountered aside from snakeheads, but the difference is no one is doing anything about the knight anoles - which I've observed destroying smaller lizards.
Point is the pythons are harmless. The invasives pretty much belong because almost anything can live here and thrive. But that is here, in Florida. Not in any other state. Florida is the only place that these snakes could live. Other states it would require one winter and boom, they're all gone. You don't think horrible owners have released their snakes in northern states? I course that's happened, it's just that the snake would have died quickly!


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How someone takes something is strictly their deal. I'm not responsible for their emotions. It was not hostile, just trying to get a gauge on why we should feel certain ways about reps and the law. I don't know much today about the lacey thing. I'm a new reptile owner.

And thanks to those who posted honest answers, good info here. Like I said, there's a ton of info out there on everything reptile and I'm just learning the ins and outs of the community.

Thanks guys!

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Some large snake species have become invasive to this country (USA.)
They are known to destroy natural habitat.
Seems like people just can't seem to take care of all of them. Just like cats.
Why continue to allow them?

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Where do I start?

First what is really the question here because with the poor wording it's really hard to tell?

Let's see, I will reformulate the question and give my own answer.

Should large constrictors be added to the lacey act and banned from interstate transportation? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Why? Well first it is a problem of government infringing on people's right, I really don't like the big brother "I know what's best for you" mentality that takes aways my rights or anyone elses.

Second it makes NO SENSE, does not solve the problem and is based on FAKE science.

Tell me how the Constrictor Rule will solve the issue at hand? Explain to me how not being able to transport your animal(s) across the state will solve the issue in Florida? Explain to me why they include all those species when only Burms have been found in Florida?

Does Florida has an issue? Yes - Is it as bad as they make it sound? NO - Are private owners responsible for the Burmese population in the everglade? NO - Can the issue spray across the country? NO

Are you opposing the hunt? I do not oppose the hunt of any invasive species that is proven to be a nuisance to the eco system, I believe in controlled population management when it is necessary, now the question is, is it the case here?

I understand that you are new but I think you need to educate yourself on the real issue.

This is about money, and lobbying, the forces behind this law have a much bigger agenda than this a few years ago those same people thought all exotic animals should bee banned (hamsters, gold fish, parakeet, turtle etc), and not just from transportation but from ownership. Why because the people behind this believe that no animal should be kept as a pet, they actually went as far as assimilating pet ownership to slavery :mad:. When they failed a few years ago, they decided to divide and conquer by attacking a specific group, the one no one would care about, making giant snakes "the big evil monsters" that needed to be eliminated and so since 2012 we have been losing ground and will continue to do so if people do not educate themselves and think that because they don't keep X or Y species they don't have to be concerned.

Anyway some info on the burmese issue in the glades

http://vpi.com/publications

Thanks Deborah, makes sense to me. I don't see most reptiles becoming an issue for most states.

Do the burms in Florida have an ecological impact? Honestly, I have a hard time imagining so, seeing as their diets should closely overlap with that of the native crocodilians and therefore the burms shouldn't be bringing anything new to the table (or taking anything off of it, you could say). Do I oppose the hunts? I have a love/hate relationship with the ideas behind hunting as a whole. The hunting of animals for meat I am indifferent to, though I vehemently oppose sport/trophy hunting, particularly where it concerns predatory species. I will never be okay with seeing someone posing with a dead lion or looking at a stuffed cougar or bobcat. The removal of the invasive species falls in the first category mostly, since I can understand why it is necessary even if I don't like it.

Any invasive species has an ecological impact... A lot of my work has been on invasive plant species in hydrologically sensitive areas and it doesn't take much to throw weltand ecosystems out of whack. I believe there could be significant damage done by invasive snakes in the everglades, but like has already been said, there are already measures in place to prevent further escapes in that area. There's no reason for that to inform policies anywhere else in the country.

I'm not against hunting the snakes in the everglades, but I am against the big hunts that involve a lot of citizens. I could see a bunch of drunk people digging through the swamp to find snakes doing way more damage than the actual snakes.

As for the damage question, this has largely been overstated and blown out of proportion. Snakes are largely not apex predators with few exceptions. Only the largest Burmese pythons are able to achieve an apex predator status, while many die before adulthood. One factor is, despite popular belief, there are predators that kill and eat the pythons. Anything from cats and canines to maybe even a really big bullfrog or unnamed fish could eat just the smallest, youngest hatchlings, while birds of prey, alligators, crocodile, large cats (if there even is any) and indigo snakes will take out a juvenile. Adults still compete with, and are often eaten by alligators.
These snakes also specifically do not cause that much damage at all, really. They do not eat everything in sight. Low metabolism, ambush predating snakes do not eat that often either, and the larger they get, the less often they even need to eat. They do not erode the terrain, unlike feral hogs. They do not cause damage to any natural or artificial structures either. They just kind of hang around, eat only so often, mostly preferring rodents or lagomorphs with an occasional variance (cotton rats are their primary source of prey) and try to stay warm and alive. The animal life around them is adapted to the presence of snakes; many animals around there have an instinctive response built in them to avoid predation from terrestrial predators unlike those on certain island ecosystems, and the effect of the snakes, contrary to the government's science fiction "studies," is not that severe at all, and the specific method they used to correlate the destruction of the Everglades, specifically the population decline, to the presence of the Burmese python was a very, very poor method we like to call an "assumption." The study itself did not factor in the myriad of other variable that could cause such population declines, particularly the introduction of other organisms during that time period, the deforestation that occurred, the pollution dumped in the Everglades, the alteration of drainage (the biggest problem, really, and this is really what's killing off a lot of things - including the pythons) and too many other variable to list. The method of data collection was also poor, as they just based the "population" number off the number of recorded roadkills during the listed time period. In a nutshell, it's all just junk science to feed an animal rights and eco-extreme agenda, while the greedy, self-serving "researchers" get paid big money by the aforementioned misanthropic groups for their corrupted bigotry.

Regardless, whatever happens in Florida is their problem. Anyone who knows a real thing about snakes, as well as being an honest person, (unlike anyone ever is in the government) would know these tropical snakes will not survive outside of a tropical climate. South Florida is the closest thing to that, being the northernmost sub-tropical zone in the continental United States. Everywhere else in the U.S. experiences temperatures that drop down low enough to at least inflict the snakes with a life-threatening respiratory infection, if not freezing them to death. Real facts from real science all point to the reality that these snakes will not be anywhere beyond South Florida. That's the honest truth. And as a Texan who has had to bear through overnight freezes and the rare snowfall, why should I have to be punished due to an ecological disaster thousands of miles away in a warmer environment? Why should any of us who do not live there, and do not live in such a climate, have to be punished because of such an ecological problem? So long as the animals are kept responsibly contained and cared for, they are not a problem, and that's the only place they could survive anyway. How Floridians choose to handle their problem is their business. If they choose to regulate the snakes or outright ban them, good for them.

And just to clarify real quick, the origin of the snakes was from a wholesale facility, specifically a structure made up of tents, that was literally blown away in the wake of Hurricane Andrew. It is unclear whether the snakes were captive bred or imported, but genetic studies have shown they are all closely related, and of a Vietnam locality. In combination to the fact they do not exhibit mutations, I am of the opinion they are imported individuals that are either farm bred or wild caught. Regardless, they were not pets at the time of release. They were originally destined to be pets, but things ultimately didn't turn out that way. But it should be known that it was a mere accident or freakish turn of events that lead to the population becoming established, not the intentional release by irresponsible pet keepers.

I have no long term management ideas in mind, unfortunately. However, I do dream of the day I can vacation to South Florida and, among enjoying other recreational activities, end my trip by legally capturing a Floridian python or two myself and legally be allowed to take them home, all without the prospect of becoming a felon, and I'm sure many other herpers here share the same opinion in what would be an ideal vacation. That's one less nonnative organism in the environment, which should make logical environmentalists happy, and one more beautiful snake in my collection, which makes me happy.

The problem of invasive species in Florida is not limited to burmese pythons.

Here's a partial list of invasive reptile species in Florida:

Red-eared Slider
Spectacled Caiman
African Redhead Agama
Giant Ameiva
Brown Anole
Hispaniolan Green Anole
Puerto Rican Crested Anole
Largehead Anole
Bark Anole
Knight Anole
Barbados Anole
Marie Gallant Sail-tailed Anole
Cuban Green Anole
Jamaican Giant Anole
Brown Basilisk
Green Basilisk
Indochinese Tree Agama
Oriental Garden Lizard
Veiled Chameleon
Rainbow Lizard
Giant Whiptail
Asian Flattail House Gecko
Mexican Spinytail Iguana
Black Spinytail Iguana
Tokay Gecko
Yellowhead Gecko
Tropical House Gecko
Common House Gecko
Mediterranean Gecko
Indo-Pacific Gecko
Green Iguana
Northern Curleytail Lizard
Green-legged Curlytail Lizard
Red-sided Curlytail Lizard
Butterfly Lizard
Many-lined Grass Skink
Bibrons Gecko
Giant Day Gecko
Texas Horned Lizard
Ocellated Gecko
Ashy Gecko
White-spotted Wall Gecko
Moorish Wall Gecko
Nile Monitor
Javan Fliesnake
Common Boa
Burmese Python
Brahminy Blind Snake
Northern African Python

Now, I'm pretty sure not all of these found freedom during the hurricane...and while not all reptile owners are irresponsible, this hobby lends itself to stupid irreversible actions. Take a good long hard look at that list and then try to explain how - by in large - it doesn't reflect badly on us.

Boomerang, I don't think you're a troll. Unfortunately both side of the argument have focused so hard on the burmese python issue that it has become a hinge point for a lot of emotion. The bottom line is that Florida has a wide and varied array of invasive species and that many of them can be traced back to the exotic pet trade.

We do not do ourselves justice by blindly defending what has occurred and what is occurring. A by product of our freedom to keep what we want without restriction is that some may abuse this freedom. Instead of downplaying the problem or acting like it can be self managed, we should deal with the abuse on our end. I've seen very little of that.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

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I'm not against hunting the snakes in the everglades, but I am against the big hunts that involve a lot of citizens. I could see a bunch of drunk people digging through the swamp to find snakes doing way more damage than the actual snakes.

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This is what I was talking about. I'm not sure hat people are like in other states, but most floridians who would take part in the hunt are like this. Maybe 2 out if 10 would actually care about Florida and the other 8 just want an excuse to hunt. For whatever reason, fake country people and fake rednecks has become the new thing here. Florida isn't a country state, it's a diversity state! I welcome the invasive species because Florida will never stop having them. Whether it's through imports or introduced by man. Just look at the carps that were brought here to reduce the invasive aquatic plants. There are still invasive aquatic plants and now the carps are eating the native ones.


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Originally Posted by Skiploder

We do not do ourselves justice by blindly defending what has occurred and what is occurring. A by product of our freedom to keep what we want without restriction is that some may abuse this freedom. Instead of downplaying the problem or acting like it can be self managed, we should deal with the abuse on our end. I've seen very little of that.

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How though, as private owners and keepers, can we deal with these abuses on our end? Other than advocating responsible keeping, which we do, and trying to educate the public, which many of us do, there isn't much else that we're able to accomplish. Once that lizard or snake leaves the petshop, there's not much control anyone has over the matter. I do agree with what Florida has done to manage invasive burms, with the strict permit and tracking system, and if THAT were the solution proposed for federal regulation, I wouldn't see any problem. It targets people at the point of purchase and weeds out potential impulse buys.

Another thing that I think should be better managed is imports. I got this idea back when I was keeping green igs, and most of them were either wild caught or captive hatched on farms then shipped to the US, so maybe I'm a little off with current import practices, but limiting import purchases in both number of importers and number of animals imported could be another avenue. It would also drive up the demand for captive bred animals, which would be a boon to private breeders, as well as drive up the average retail price which, again, would help weed out impulse buys. $20 iguana hatchlings are a lot more appealing to someone budget shopping for a pet for little Timmy's birthday than an $80 - $120 dollar one.

However, there is no dispute that the Lacey act mostly punishes already responsible owners. Live in a border city and your vet is in the next state? Too bad, hope your animal doesn't get sick. Serve as one of the brave people in the armed forces and get moved around a lot? Hey, thanks for all your sacrifice to protect our rights and freedoms, but now the government is going to take yours away, and the next time you change bases that snake you've kept with you through everything for the last 15 year will have to find a new home or be euthanized. And how does this stop bad owners from dumping their pet by the side of the road? It doesn't. Point in fact, I would say it would more likely encourage it for a person that hasn't been able to rehome, but feels too bad about it to euthanize the animal. I've seen it with rabbit owners all the time. Tired of their pet, but no one wants to buy it (and the animal shelters around here won't take them), well, it's a bunny right? It can live in the woods and eat leaves there, right? So they take it out to a patch of "woods" (a lot of time just an empty, heavily treed lot) and let their precious pet go to live out the rest of its days carefree in the wild. Guess who usually ends up road kill, or dog chew toy in a week. Poor, poor Fluffy.

Anyway, my point is, I don't think for the most part anyone is mass defending the reptile hobby as a flawless paragon of responsible pet keeping. I'm all for tighter restrictions when they're proven to have a net benefit effect for owners, the captive animals, and the environment. What we ARE protesting, however, is wide reaching, clumsy legislation that caters mostly to the HSUS and PETA, and the divisive attitude of, "well some people couldn't handle the responsibility, so that means ALL of you are suspect," that even other reptile owners are throwing at the giant keepers (as if they're the only people we have to worry about). And let's not pretend that pet abandonment and invasive ferals are just a reptile owner problem. Look at how many feral cat and dog colonies this country boasts. It's almost Easter, and I'll bet you dollars to donuts you can not go on any social media site and not find some warning with adorable pics telling off people for buying bunnies, chicks, and ducklings for the season, just to get rid of them when they stop being small and cute.

The reptile nation is under fire, not because it's particularly bad compared to the rest of the pet industry, but because it's an easy target. Unless you agree with the extremist animal rights groups, and think no one should own pets ever, we need to stand together and fight against this, rather than point fingers.

you're fine, the community tends to be a forgivng one that likes to help with problems, and more people will post more information to help you understand more of it:)

sidenote, i hope noone gets injured or killed by a burm in south florida by some freak occurence, one death and the whole united states is ganna freak out. The thought of that scares me.

I won't lie, monstrously sized snakes scare me a lot. People who care for them intrigue me. respect.