First Time Eaters Hatchling Help

We attempted the first feeding for our hatchlings last night. It's been almost a week since they've been in their tubs/shed. We used F/T mouse hoppers around 10g. All of the hatchlings were out cruising their tub. We tried offering it to them and ended up just dropping it in each of their tubs after none of them showed interest. They have a hid box and a big water bowl to fill the space of their tub, but I know that they dont like the hide because it's too big, and they ususally wedge themself between the wall of the tub and the hide box instead. This morning we checked and only 1/6 ate. Is this typical? Any tips? We were thinking of trying rat pinks next, maybe changing their hide?

Either give them smaller hides that they just barely fit into, or give them aspen substrate that is deep enough so that they can bury themselves. They need to feel secure before they will eat.

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

We attempted the first feeding for our hatchlings last night. It's been almost a week since they've been in their tubs/shed. We used F/T mouse hoppers around 10g. All of the hatchlings were out cruising their tub. We tried offering it to them and ended up just dropping it in each of their tubs after none of them showed interest. They have a hid box and a big water bowl to fill the space of their tub, but I know that they dont like the hide because it's too big, and they ususally wedge themself between the wall of the tub and the hide box instead. This morning we checked and only 1/6 ate. Is this typical? Any tips? We were thinking of trying rat pinks next, maybe changing their hide?

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I would try separating all of them to their own tub and their own hide. Invariably, most hatchlings have a appetite for live over f/t. Go with the live for the first couple of feedings. Some will switch over to f/t eventually but there will be some stubborn ones who only want live. Its just a process. Stay in peace and not pieces. A.C. :taz: :taz:

I second getting smaller hides. That can make a WORLD of difference. Also, what temperature are they at? By tubs, you mean 6 qt, shoe box tubs, right?

As someone who has pretty good luck starting babies on f/t, here's what I do (please note that this refers only to healthy babies, not preemies or hatchlings that had problems):

Every baby has its own shoe box and baby hide. I use RB Small Hide for hatchies. Each tub starts with paper towel, because it's quicker maintenance for me. Quicker maintenance for me = less stress for them. My hatchling rack runs at 87 degrees. Some people run warmer, but I've had more success about there.

After the shed, I wait a whole seven days before offering a f/t (and warmed) mouse hopper. I warm under an incandescent bulb. Babies who are secure in their hides act just like adults, sitting in the hide with their heads or noses poking out. I quietly lay the hopper in each tub after dark, no zombie dancing for babies, and walk away until the following morning. I wait an entire week again and repeat, without changing prey. If a baby doesn't eat within three offerings, I switch the substrate to aspen and repeat. If after a couple more weeks the baby does not eat, I use a live crawler mouse, between fuzzy and hopper size, as I've found that the babies who don't eat for me under this system tend to be my shyest babies -- actually too nervous for hopper mice.

So, I'd really suggest fixing the hides before trying a new species of prey.

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Originally Posted by Alicia

I second getting smaller hides. That can make a WORLD of difference. Also, what temperature are they at? By tubs, you mean 6 qt, shoe box tubs, right?

As someone who has pretty good luck starting babies on f/t, here's what I do (please note that this refers only to healthy babies, not preemies or hatchlings that had problems):

Every baby has its own shoe box and baby hide. I use RB Small Hide for hatchies. Each tub starts with paper towel, because it's quicker maintenance for me. Quicker maintenance for me = less stress for them. My hatchling rack runs at 87 degrees. Some people run warmer, but I've had more success about there.

After the shed, I wait a whole seven days before offering a f/t (and warmed) mouse hopper. I warm under an incandescent bulb. Babies who are secure in their hides act just like adults, sitting in the hide with their heads or noses poking out. I quietly lay the hopper in each tub after dark, no zombie dancing for babies, and walk away until the following morning. I wait an entire week again and repeat, without changing prey. If a baby doesn't eat within three offerings, I switch the substrate to aspen and repeat. If after a couple more weeks the baby does not eat, I use a live crawler mouse, between fuzzy and hopper size, as I've found that the babies who don't eat for me under this system tend to be my shyest babies -- actually too nervous for hopper mice.

So, I'd really suggest fixing the hides before trying a new species of prey.

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Thanks everyone! I'll try smaller hides. We have their hot spot at 91 degrees, and yes, they are in their own 6qt tubs.

I notice much stronger feeding response when I heat the rats/mice up to around 90-95 degrees with a blowdryer. careful though with small feeders cause they heat up fast.

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

Thanks everyone! I'll try smaller hides. We have their hot spot at 91 degrees, and yes, they are in their own 6qt tubs.

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Hopefully that does the trick! Be patient, but don't balk at trying live if you can't get them to start voluntarily on f/t.

Also, I'd say go ahead and knock their temp down two degrees to 89. It may make them more inclined to sit in their hides, and lower temps may allow warmed f/t to show up better for them.

I've had one recently, a 55 gram female, that would only eat mice crawlers for the first month or so. Once I had her comfortable with the crawlers I bumped her up to very small fuzzies then after a week on those offered a f/t hopper and she made the switch. Sometimes with hatchlings you just have to get them started on live then make the switch.

Live hopper mice will do it every time.
Keep an eye on their weight if you want to continue trying f/t.

Is it safe to leave them through the night with a live Mouse Hopper?

No, a hopper is old enough to start chewing on your snake and cause damage.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

No, a hopper is old enough to start chewing on your snake and cause damage.

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That's what I thought. A mouse fuzzy should be fine though, yeah?

So it's the third week now that we've been trying to feed them live rat pinkies and still none have eaten. The only pet shop we can find within an hour around here only has rats rights now so we've been unable to try any live mice. We've given all the hatchlings around two inches of aspen. Temperatures are 92 on warm side and 80 on cold side. They seemed interested and were flicking their tongues a lot when we put it in, so we thought they would take them. We left them alone overnight, and not one ate again. Is this unusual? One has lost 5grams since and is sitting at 46g. When do we assist feed?


http://i.imgur.com/c3Rsm30.jpg

If this guy is representative of what they look like, I wouldn't assist feed yet, although other folks' mileage may vary.

Showing interest is a good sign, that they're not taking means something isn't quite click. It's not unusual for baby BPs to not take rat pinks. Some people think it's movement, some people think it's the lack of fur, some think it's lack of smell. You can try leaving the pinks in with some dirty mouse bedding to help them pick up scent.

I still suggest lowering the temperature. By several degrees. Take the hotspot down to 88-89. Do they babies use the hides an overwhelming majority of the time, or are they frequently out, like the little guy in the picture?

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

Is it safe to leave them through the night with a live Mouse Hopper?

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Yes, but imo the hopper wont be in there for long. Especially when it gets really dark in the room or enclosure. It has a lot to do with the heat signature coupled with the natural movement of the live hopper. Not to mention the almost total darkness! Good luck. Peace. Don't forget to support USARK and donate to the lawsuit against USFWS and the overturning of "the lacey act". :gj:

So on top of the aspen on their hot spot reads at around 85 degrees usually. We have the heat set to 90. It only reaches 85 on the top of the aspen, and can get up to 95 way down underneath the aspen! The probe is in a cage with aspen, just like the hatchlings. Isn't this an issue? What would you recommend to do? Obviously I want the top to be a good 89 degrees, but if they burrow I'm concerned.

I would like to say most of the time they're wedged BEHIND their hides and not actually in them. They push the aspen around which makes the door to the hides obstructed and will make the hides sit at awkward angles where it looks like they can't get in unless they burrow from under and up into it.. Unless I fix the hides multiple times a day then I usually just see them behind the hides. I just looked now and half are in their hides (An hour ago I just adjusted their cages so that aspen wasn't obstructing).

We also rubbed the pinkies on a warmed F/T adult mouse that we had in hopes of the smell helping.

I agree with Alicia. Consider mixing a little cypress mulch in with the aspen. Maybe a 40% mix of the 100% cypress mulch. Either the Zoo MED brand or the "all living things" brand. Let them kind of acclimate to the substrate change, maybe skip the next scheduled feeding then pick it up after that. Don't get any cypress mulch from home depot. You can get the right one from petco, petsmart right away. Good luck. :gj:

http://i.imgur.com/PGfWQxW.jpg



They always somehow dig out the aspen in the way back causing the hide to fall back into a ravine, tipping up like this. After this happens they usually abandon the hide and wedge themselves between the back of the hide and the tub.

Also, I would tease feed before I assist feed any way. Keep trying, its a process. Let us know about the progress. Good luck again!:gj:

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

Is it safe to leave them through the night with a live Mouse Hopper?

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I have the best luck offering live pinky rats as a first meal. Immediately upon hatching, I give each baby their own shoebox with a hide and water dish. A few days after shedding, I place a live pinky rat in each cage and usually within 15 minutes every baby is constricting. The benefit is that if you have to leave the prey in longer, a pinky can't do anything to hurt the snake. I wouldn't leave a hopper mouse in overnight.

After an initial live meal, the next week I offer f/t rat pinkies and they eat like pigs.

You only assist when ALL options have been used up.

Work on finding some hopper mice, post on your local Craigslist if you have to.
I hate breeding mice but I breed my snakes so its kind of a must plus I have a couple that will only go mouse.

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Originally Posted by Galaxygirl

So on top of the aspen on their hot spot reads at around 85 degrees usually. We have the heat set to 90. It only reaches 85 on the top of the aspen, and can get up to 95 way down underneath the aspen! The probe is in a cage with aspen, just like the hatchlings. Isn't this an issue? What would you recommend to do? Obviously I want the top to be a good 89 degrees, but if they burrow I'm concerned.

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The thermostat probe is in a tub, not on the heat tape? As long as it's a vacant tub, sometimes that can fly, sometimes it can't. My first thought is to move the probe onto the heat tape and adjust from there -- give the set up at least an hour or so before checking and making any necessary changes. *But* that really depends on your setup. Either way, you want to regulate the highest temperature your babies can reach.

Something that can help with hides falling is to scoop out is to add some aspen, maybe a quarter inch, to an empty tub. Add the hide. Add the rest of the bedding. I like to pack aspen around and behind hides, as the feeling still provides security, but makes it a lot harder for babies to move the hides too much. I second the suggestion to add cypress to the mix, the different texture might help and more humidity almost certainly will. If it seems like two inches is too much, and it may be, pull back to ~1 inch.

Try not to give in to the temptation of offering food immediately after making changes -- give them a few days, even a week. Posting on Craigslist for mice is a fantastic idea.

The probe for the thermostat is taped to the bottom of an empty tub underneath some aspen. Thank you everyone for the advice. I packed the hides in so hopefully they wont be moved around. I'll monitor the temps until they're perfect and post some craigslist ads for mice.

Well, it was live mouse hoppers that did it. Everyone gobbled them up.

Yay!! Awesome, congrats!

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Originally Posted by Alicia

Yay!! Awesome, congrats!

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Thanks for all the advice! What a relief. (: I fix their hides maybe once every three days. I pack in the aspen around the hide to try to support it better like you suggested. It works for a while. We set up an exact replica of their tubs with the thermostat in it to try to get it as close as possible to the temperature in their tubs. I think they just really didn't want rat pinks? Hard to say I guess. They all have fat bellies and we are happy.