albino/pied project

i was wonderin if i breed a 50% male and 66%female together would i get an albino/pied?

You'd have to be super lucky. If you hit, both snakes would then turn out to be 100% for that trait (albino or pied, depending on which one you were trying). If you didn't hit, the snakes could still be 100% het for that trait, but you still might not hit albino or pied on the first clutch. Also, if you didn't hit, it could turn out that one or both of the snakes were just normals, and not acutally het's at all.

http://www.newenglandreptile.com/gen...recessive.html

That should help. Also, do a search for "genetics" in this forum and you should come up with a lot of results, and even perhaps the answer to your question.

Jennifer

thanx! i was lookin at the classifieds for kingsnake and ball boutique was selling 50% het albino male for $30 and i was thinkin thats cheaper than some plain out normals!

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Originally Posted by sk8er4life

...was selling 50% het albino male for $30 and i was thinkin thats cheaper than some plain out normals!

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That's because a 50% POSSIBLE het for albino ball python literally means you have a 50% chance that the snake in question is in fact a 100% HET albino. It's kind of hard to grasp, but hopefully that makes sense. In other words, there is no such thing as a 50% het albino. The snake either carries the gene for albino (and is 100% het) or it does not (0%). The 50% and 66% het comes in when you breed a 100% het animal to a normal het for nothing animal. The results will include NO visual albinos. All of the offspring will appear normal, but statistically 50% or 66% (depending on the breeding) of the offspring WILL BE 100% het. Since heterozygous animals and normal animals look the same, they are marked either 50% or 66% possible het. You will not know exactly which of the animals are hets until you breed them and prove them out by producing the morph. This also means that there is a 50% chance that the animal is completely normal, and will never carry the gene to produce the trait (whether it be albino, pied, etc). I could go on and on, but hopefully that helps.

Jennifer

With all that said, It's much easier buying the DEFINATE 100% het animals. Proving out 50% or 66% possible hets takes years (5+) of dedicated work, and by then you could prove that the two animals you bought for the project in the beginning were normals. Unless you just want to fool around with it; but if that is the case, I wouldn't expect anything more than normal offspring (and if you do prove them out to be hets, that's just a PLUS!!). That's just me, I don't like to raise my hopes too high. :)

Jennifer

what about a 100% and a 66% het together(im on a low budget!lol)

If you're going to buy a 100% & a 66% het...just make sure they're for the same mutation. IOW...it would make more sense to get a 100% het albino & a 66% het albino than two different hets for two different mutations. Poss. hets can take a looooong time to prove out.

K

yea, so there is a possibility of getting a morph out of that?

and what about 66% and 66% hets together

Lets see if I can explain this for you. I'm not sure if this is all correct, but this is how I understand things.

100% het X Normal = 50% chance het, 50% chance normal

Morph X Normal = 100% hets

100% het X 100% het = 25% chance morph, 50% chance het, 25% chance normal

Morph X 100% het = 50% chance morph, 50% chance het

Morph X Morph = 100% morph

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Originally Posted by Cody

Lets see if I can explain this for you. I'm not sure if this is all correct, but this is how I understand things.

100% het X Normal = 50% chance het, 50% chance normal

Morph X Normal = 100% hets

100% het X 100% het = 25% chance morph, 50% chance het, 25% chance normal

Morph X 100% het = 50% chance morph, 50% chance het

Morph X Morph = 100% morph

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AND STARTS THE CODY FAN CLUB!!!

you're so smart. :heart::heart::heart:

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Originally Posted by Super_Smash

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Originally Posted by Cody

Lets see if I can explain this for you. I'm not sure if this is all correct, but this is how I understand things.

100% het X Normal = 50% chance het, 50% chance normal

Morph X Normal = 100% hets

100% het X 100% het = 25% chance morph, 50% chance het, 25% chance normal

Morph X 100% het = 50% chance morph, 50% chance het

Morph X Morph = 100% morph

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AND STARTS THE CODY FAN CLUB!!!

you're so smart. :heart::heart::heart:

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*Joins the club :roll: *

Cody got it right for simple recessive traits. It gets more or less complicated for other morphs, depending on how they're passed down.

If I were to personally pursue an albino project with hets, I would buy a 1.2 trio of 100% hets from a reliable source, or possibly more females. However, if you really are on a budget, I would buy a male 100% het albino male and 2 or more 66% het albino females. Since the male can be bred to multiple females, it would be the best value to buy the male at 100%. I also believe males would be cheaper.

With 2 66% het albino females, your odds of at least 1 female proving out are:
2/3 * 1/3 + 1/3 * 2/3 + 2/3 * 2/3 =
2/9 + 2/9 + 4/9 = 8/9
That's almost 90%, and pretty darn good odds.

With 3 66% het albino females:
3 * 2/27 + 3 * 4/27 + 8/27 = 25/27
Only a 1/27 improvement, so not really worth it in my opinion (from a genetic viewpoint anyway).

However, this is only the odds of the females carrying the albino gene, not the odds of you actually producing allbinos. Ball pythons aren't corn snakes, and not everyone has success with them. Always keep in mind through with hets: BUY FROM A RELIABLE SOURCE. Avoid places like reptibid like the plague. Only deal with people who are very well known and with good reputations, as your hets will only be worth as much as the paper they come with if you ever try to sell them. The breeder should also be able to provide pictures of eggs, and the babies hatching. Also do a thorough background check on the breeder through faunaclassifieds.

if you are trying to get an albino/pied cross, that is two different traits. both are recessive. that means that both need to have the albino and pieds genes. a 100% albino bred to a 100% pied (hets) won't give you an albino pied!


vaughn

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If I were to personally pursue an albino project with hets, I would buy a 1.2 trio of 100% hets from a reliable source, or possibly more females. However, if you really are on a budget, I would buy a male 100% het albino male and 2 or more 66% het albino females. Since the male can be bred to multiple females, it would be the best value to buy the male at 100%. I also believe males would be cheaper.

With 2 66% het albino females, your odds of at least 1 female proving out are:
2/3 * 1/3 + 1/3 * 2/3 + 2/3 * 2/3 =
2/9 + 2/9 + 4/9 = 8/9
That's almost 90%, and pretty darn good odds.

With 3 66% het albino females:
3 * 2/27 + 3 * 4/27 + 8/27 = 25/27
Only a 1/27 improvement, so not really worth it in my opinion (from a genetic viewpoint anyway).

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i dont really follow???

oh no i wasnt plannin on making an albino x pied thats to advanced for my level!

ok got it, if you just want an albino or just a pied a het x het breeding probably would be the best route. i would invest in at least a 100% het male and several poss het females. really do your homework on the breeder when purchasing hets. the more females you breed the better your odds on producing the morph!

vaughn

Thanx!

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Originally Posted by sk8er4life

i dont really follow???

oh no i wasnt plannin on making an albino x pied thats to advanced for my level!

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I was just explaining how you'd work out the odds that at least one of the females you bought would actuallly be het. As someone explained before, a ball python is either heterozygous for a certain gene or not. When a ball python is 66% het, it does not possess 66% of the gene; the 66% is to show the probability of the snake being a het.

Therefore, if you are to buy a single 66% het, there is a 66% chance of that snake being het (which is pretty straightforward).

If you are to buy 2 66% hets though, you do not have a 66% chance that both are hets. Let's just label the two snakes as snake A and snake B, and list all the different scenarios and their weighted probabilities.

1) both A and B are not het
1/3 * /13 = 1/9

2) both A and B are het
2/3 * 2/3 = 4/9

3) A is het but B is not het
2/3 * 1/3 = 2/9

4) A is not het but B is het
1/3 * 2/3 = 2/9

What I calculated for you before was the odds that at least one of them is het, which is simply the sum of 2), 3), and 4)
4/9 + 2/9 + 2/9 = 8/9

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What I calculated for you before was the odds that at least one of them is het, which is simply the sum of 2), 3), and 4)
4/9 + 2/9 + 2/9 = 8/9

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Great explanation! Very clearly written.

I swear I posted to this thread already. Maybe it was too long and errored out.

Anyway, my points are:

A quicker way than adding up all the possibilities of varying degrees of success is to calculate the odds of failure and subtract it from one (you either succeed or fail so together they make a 100% chance).

Each 66% possible het has a 33% chance of not being a het (it either is or isn't so 1 - 2/3 = 1/3 or 33%). The chance of both members of a pair of 66% chance hets NOT being hets is 1/3 X 1/3 = 1/9 so the chance of success is 1 - 1/9 = 8/9 if all you are going for is not having a pair of normals. As you start working with bigger groups than pairs (i.e. are any of a clutch of six 50% chance hets actual hets) it gets very complicated to keep track of all the possible combinations of one or more hets so it's easier to figure the odds of no hets and subtract it from 1.

Perhaps the more interesting possibility is the chance that both possible hets in a pair are hets since you need that to even have a shot at producing a homozygous.

In 2003 I bred a 66% chance het to a 50% chance het albino and only got two good eggs. The chance of them both being hets was 2/3 X 1/2 = 1/3.

Even if they where hets I had to hit the chance of getting at least one albino out of two eggs from het X het. Each egg has a 3/4 chance of NOT being homozygous albino so the chance of neither being homozygous was 3/4 X 3/4 = 9/16. The chance of at least one being a het was 1 - 9/16 = 7/16.

The combined chance of both parents being het and at least one of the babies from only two eggs being het was 1/3 X 7/16 = 7/48 or about 14.6%. So, not astronomically (i.e. lotto odds) difficult but a long shot. It turned out that both eggs where albinos but both where horribly kinked and didn't live (guess my luck ran out).

So, anyway, long answer to the original question, yes, you can produce an albino from a 66% chance het to a 50% chance het. I did it in 3 years from when I produced the possible hets and sold thier 100% chance het father to fund the 66% chance replacement because he is also 50% chance het Jolliff axanthic. Now I've got to decide if I want to use that proven het albino male possible het Jolliff on one of the sister's yet to be proven or give them both to a 66% chance het albino + 66% chance het VPI axanthic 01/04 male.

maybe i missed something. if both traits are resesive (sp) then why try to breed them?

but...what if i have a visual morph of each and both are het for the other, meaning the male is peid het albino and the femail is albino het for peid, both 100%, which would have meant that i'd started this project a decade ago, what would the out come really look like? would it be like a red eyed luesistic(sp) with yellow bloches or an albino with patches of normal color pattern?

I imagine it would be an albino with patches of pure white (without the yellow), but you never know for sure until somebody produces one. Doesn't sound like a particularly interesting project to me, but to each his own.

By the way, you have a 25% chance of making an albino x pied with the animals described. I don't know of any like that persay, but I do know Ralph Davis has some double hets.... the odds are even slimmer with those, only 1/16.

It takes a LOOONG time to make a double homozygous of any two genes, let alone two recessive genes... you'd need a lot of guesswork and a lot of luck. However, it is possible, as that's exactly what snow ball pythons are.

This thread makes my brain hurt......

I'm confused with the 66%, how the heck can you get a 66%? I understand about the 50, 25, and 100, but 66?

When you breed a het to a het of a recessive gene, you get:
25% homozygous normal, normal appearance
50% heterozygous, normal appearance
25% homozygous morph, morph appearance

However, with a recessive gene, the 25% of the clutch that's homozygous normal will look idential to the 50% of the clutch that's heterozygous. In total 75% (25% + 50%) will be normal looking. Therefore, the odds of one of the normal looking ones being hets are simply 50%/75% = 66%. It's actually 66.666666... % (2/3), so technically, it should be 67% instead of 66%. Hope that makes sense...

Thanks....

double hets of each, 1.1 would have to breed, right?
then a certian percentage of those produce offspring would be visible for both if the mixed morphs worked with each other right?

it hasn't been yet to anyones knowledge yet right?

1/16 shot with double recessive hets ... yes it's been done. caramel-hypo (caramel glow), albino-clown, albino-hypo, albino-axanthic. (probably missing something?) ... This year there should be a bunch more.

-adam

and all of those morphs are from a pied|albino mix? i'd like to see what the pied to albino morph looks like.

no, those are all double homo morphs from breeding double hets together. albino pieds should be this year, or next year at the latest.

-adam

yeah! now i'm really going to get a paper route!