Pastel vs Fire

Apparently I still have trouble telling them apart. For really obvious examples of the morphs it's easy, but not every snake is a good example of its morph! A snake I think looks like a pastel is just a really blushed out fire? That one looks like a fire to me, but turns out it's a browned out pastel with a lot of flames??? Is there some really obvious way to tell them apart that I'm missing, or is this something that comes down to experience?

pastels always have "brown out" lines, even really nice examples have darker yellows and lighter yellows in the alien heads. the fires and vanillas are just a lighter brown instead of the pastel "yellow"

Yup, what he said. I would take fire over pastel every time, but I prefer both :)

Pictures for identifying practice:

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...stelclutch.jpg

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...psa2413281.jpg

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...telsnormal.jpg

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...s/DSC03871.jpg

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...psb8605a76.jpg

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...psd90600ba.jpg

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/z...ps97fbf008.jpg

Thank you for the pics! So basically that "line" is what to look for?

Any chance of some labels as I'm non the wiser tbh ... Thanks

yes, label of pics would help.

The "line" is not what to look for. That is not even an identifying trait of what a Pastel is. A pastel is yellow/orange in color. Even a low quality baby can't be mistaken as anything other than a low quality pastel. Fire's are a bit tricky because a low quality one can look like a normal to the untrained eye. But distinguishing a Pastel from a Fire is very easy. Continue to look up pictures and you'll learn the difference.

PASTEL:
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/pastel/

FIRE:
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/fire/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheSnakeEye

The "line" is not what to look for. That is not even an identifying trait of what a Pastel is. A pastel is yellow/orange in color. Even a low quality baby can't be mistaken as anything other than a low quality pastel. Fire's are a bit tricky because a low quality one can look like a normal to the untrained eye. But distinguishing a Pastel from a Fire is very easy. Continue to look up pictures and you'll learn the difference.

PASTEL:
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/pastel/

FIRE:
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/fire/

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I was looking at WoBP initially, but still having trouble seeing the difference when I saw more yellowy fires with blushing, or browned out pastels.

Just look up more pictures and read up. You'll soon learn like we all did.

My initial " thoughts " were top one - Pastels ..... bottom one Fires ...... The rest look all manner of morphs and some of them in shed mode ...:)

Got any good links with reading information, preferable with example pictures? Seriously, I am a research fiend and I've been googling my butt off but I can't find anything with specific comparisons. Like I said, It's not when the snake is a good representative of its respective morph that I have trouble, that part is easy.

I think part of my trouble has come from looking at posts where people ask if they got a pastel from the pet store (which is what it was sold to them as) and three or four chime and go, "Oh, that's a fire!" I'm not seeing it when that happens and that's made me question everything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheSnakeEye

The "line" is not what to look for. That is not even an identifying trait of what a Pastel is. A pastel is yellow/orange in color. Even a low quality baby can't be mistaken as anything other than a low quality pastel. Fire's are a bit tricky because a low quality one can look like a normal to the untrained eye. But distinguishing a Pastel from a Fire is very easy. Continue to look up pictures and you'll learn the difference.

PASTEL:
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/pastel/

FIRE:
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/fire/

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That's kinda odd as the 'default' pics on both links weren't as I expected .

Meaning ... The first didn't look like any Pastel I've come across and the second link didn't look like a Fire . Just referring to the default pix on each link not the ones you can move onto.

There lies the problem with our beloved Royals which is there are sooooo many flamin' morphs and many appear to overlap .
There is a thread on a different forum talking about a Royal morph photo and no two people can even agree on what the hell it is :)

Incidentally , I'm not slagging Royals off as I love the little beauties .

( I've got a matching non-related pair of HC Albinos and a stunningly bright looking female Pastel )

I mean I guess the sure fire (lol fire) way is to put two snake together and see if they come out super pastels, fireflies, or BELs haha.

This thread surprises me a bit as these morphs look very different to me, but I've been doing this a long time. I would suggest you continue to look at photos and pay attention to their color and the markings/color on top of their heads first. I think if you look at blushing and flames first it may throw you off on some.

Dave has it right. Pay attention to overall body color and head coloring, not the blushing and flames. Pastels are always more "yellow" and fires are more "cream". Even as babies, when fires can be neon yellow, if you put them side by side you have no trouble telling them apart -once- you know what to look for. And therin lies the problem. Lots of people with less experience identify a photo as fire or vanilla or pastel, when that isn't what the snake pictured is. My advise to you is the same I gave myself. Look at every photo you can find from established breeders that have their snakes properly labeled. Frequent every reptile show you can and see them in person, because even the best picture is not the same as seeing in person. Keep studying the similarities and differences between the morphs, quiz yourself when on a breeder's site. Can you identify the morph correctly without the breeder's notes? It does take time. This is not something you learn in a day or week or even a month. Even though I breed fires, vanillas and pastels, I still see pictures now and then that I really have to stop and study carefully to decide which morph it is. And yes even in person one will make me scratch my head from time to time.

One bonus of all the hard work is, it's a lot harder for someone to "put one over on you" and sell you a snake they claim is one thing when you can clearly tell it isn't.

Just keep at it, eventually you will acquire the "eye" for morphs all the experienced people seem to have been born with.

Gale

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

That's kinda odd as the 'default' pics on both links weren't as I expected .

Meaning ... The first didn't look like any Pastel I've come across and the second link didn't look like a Fire . Just referring to the default pix on each link not the ones you can move onto.

There lies the problem with our beloved Royals which is there are sooooo many flamin' morphs and many appear to overlap .
There is a thread on a different forum talking about a Royal morph photo and no two people can even agree on what the hell it is :)

Incidentally , I'm not slagging Royals off as I love the little beauties .

( I've got a matching non-related pair of HC Albinos and a stunningly bright looking female Pastel )

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The photos in the links I posted are perfect examples of each morph, even the first pictures. I am no master ball python breeder but I am knowledgable enough to know A from B. When it comes to ball pythons, identifying morphs up to 2-3 gene combos are easy once you learn the morphs. It gets tricky when you start producing 4-5 gene animals. Keep researching and you'll soon learn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lizardlicks

I mean I guess the sure fire (lol fire) way is to put two snake together and see if they come out super pastels, fireflies, or BELs haha.

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That is a sure fire way considering you produce the combos. But before breeding, you should learn to be able to differentiate. I promise it's not hard to tell a Fire from a Pastel. They are completely different morphs. If you can't distinguish the single genes, it may be just as hard to distinguish the combos.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dave Green

This thread surprises me a bit as these morphs look very different to me, but I've been doing this a long time. I would suggest you continue to look at photos and pay attention to their color and the markings/color on top of their heads first. I think if you look at blushing and flames first it may throw you off on some.

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Dave nailed it perfectly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheSnakeEye

The photos in the links I posted are perfect examples of each morph, even the first pictures..





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I wasn't doubting all the photos in the link ... I referred to the 'default' pix in each link .... ie the first picture that pops up on each link ... Maybe the default photo changes each day ??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zincubus

I wasn't doubting all the photos in the link ... I referred to the 'default' pix in each link .... ie the first picture that pops up on each link ... Maybe the default photo changes each day ??

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I understand you. I'm just saying that the pics posted are fine examples. So if they look odd to you, perhaps you've been seeing bad pictures elsewhere.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheSnakeEye

I understand you. I'm just saying that the pics posted are fine examples. So if they look odd to you, perhaps you've been seeing bad pictures elsewhere.

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Yeah that's what I suspect is adding to the confusion. It's why I was looking for some sort of "look for these characteristics" guideline so I could hone my observation skills. Just saying "oh, look until you figure it out!" doesn't help me if I don't know what I'm looking for in the first place.

Pastels in color ranger anywhere from Orange to Yellow, with black instead of the usual brown.

Fires look like very bright and clean normals. But even with those descriptions your best bet is to analyze them in person and pictures.

Didn't see anyone say this yet, so perhaps it is not true.
I was told that pastels will always have green/ish eye color? Whereas fires not.
Also fires will always have a blushed head stamp with a dot in it.
Vanillas are what confuses me. Some look way too much like fires.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deltaball

Didn't see anyone say this yet, so perhaps it is not true.
I was told that pastels will always have green/ish eye color? Whereas fires not.
Also fires will always have a blushed head stamp with a dot in it.
Vanillas are what confuses me. Some look way too much like fires.

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That is true about the green eyes! How could I have forgot.

Yes, but pastels are not the only ones with green eyes. Some normals have green eyes as well. Doesn't that just make it even more fun!

And that is also why I spent so much time looking at snakes sold by reputable breeders so I knew what I was looking at, and not just random "Is this a ______ ?" pictures. While you can look for certain things to distinguish some morphs, like head stamps and fading and so on, if you really can't tell a true head stamp from just a faded head, it isn't going to help you much.
Take vanillas and fires as a great example. No one can seem to tell them apart. I mean, no one. Half say fire, half say vanilla, and a few claim it's just a normal. However, I breed both and I can promise you, seen side by side there is no mistaking one for the other. Not with good examples of the morph. Can I describe to you exactly what to look for to tell them apart? Nope. I could describe them for you until I was blue in the face, and 8 out of 10 times, you still won't be able to tell by looking at a picture.

BUT, if I brought you to my house and showed you my fires babies and my vanilla babies, you'd have no trouble telling them apart. The difference is plain as day. The guy down the street though? You probably couldn't tell which was which, or even if he had what he claimed he did. It takes time, plain and simple. Time spent looking at KNOWN examples of each of the morphs, not guess this morph. Over time, you would begin to see the differences between them, even without someone to tell you which was which. I've been to a reptile show, and seen 6 fires each from a different breeder, each one looked totally different from the others, but I could still tell they were all fires. And I can do that because I have spent literally years looking at fires from every reputable breeder on the internet. I have learned what " the look" for a fire is. But I even if I tried to tell you what it was I could see that told me it was fire, that doesn't mean someone who was not familiar with fires could tell what I was talking about.

Fires always have a head stamp. Usually they have a faded head. The best of them have lots of belly flames and lots of back blushing. As babies, they should be a clear bright yellow, like a dandelion. But guess what? Pastels can have faded heads. They can have lots of blushing and flames. And the best pastel babies are dandelion yellow. So, how does that help you? it doesn't. You still can't tell one from the other. So, how do I do it? Practice, practice, practice. That and patience.

Gale