"Less than seasoned" snake owners

Am I the only one that gets completely frustrated when people tell me the way I'm raising my 1.0 ball (he is my first ball), is the wrong way? He gets regular vet visits, where I am told he is always in excellent heath (minus when I very first got him, he had a few health issues from a previous owner) I feed him when he needs to be fed, I handle him when he needs to be handled, I make sure his temperatures and humidity are correct (and even keep a daily log) it really doesn't take a rocket scientist to keep a snake.

To all you new snake owners out there, there is a difference between people giving you a helpful critique to get you on the right track, and people just being plain rude because they have a herp collection and they've been collecting for X amount of years, and they know EVERYTHING there is to know about every snake ever.

It doesn't take rocket science to keep a snake, it does take some careful measuring of temperature to make sure your snake stays healthy, but its not a very hard thing to do if you have half a brain and the internet.

I hear ya. I run into this a lot of my reef forums. Some people just like to make things more complicated than it needs to be.

I've only been keeping snakes for 2 years and only been a reef kepper for 4 years. I will always be a n00b in some people's eyes because I don't have 20 years in either hobby. I just know what works for me. My animals are happy and healthy and that's all that matters.

I completely understand your frustration. It can actually be applied to many different parts of life - not just snake keeping.

The one thing to keep in mind, though, is that you don't know what you don't know until someone says something. I think what you're getting at is that there's a big difference between experience and knowledge. Especially on an internet message board, the difference between the two can be difficult to discern. And, even when the difference is clear, a person still has to be willing to listen otherwise it doesn't matter what is said.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric Alan

I completely understand your frustration. It can actually be applied to many different parts of life - not just snake keeping.

The one thing to keep in mind, though, is that you don't know what you don't know until someone says something. I think what you're getting at is that there's a big difference between experience and knowledge. Especially on an internet message board, the difference between the two can be difficult to discern. And, even when the difference is clear, a person still has to be willing to listen otherwise it doesn't matter what is said.

---

There is also a difference between critique and knowing everything (or thinking you do) I don't know everything about keeping snakes, never claimed to, but I know that the way I keep my ball seems to work fine.

Quote:

---

It doesn't take rocket science to keep a snake, it does take some careful measuring of temperature to make sure your snake stays healthy, but its not a very hard thing to do if you have half a brain and the internet.

---

Obviously if it was that easy for everybody you wouldn't see the same questions years after years :rolleyes:

Help my snake doesn't eat
Help my snake does not poop
Help my snake strikes at me
Help my snake has a burn
Help my snake has scale rot
Help my snake has a RI

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MontyAndMelissa

There is also a difference between critique and knowing everything (or thinking you do) I don't know everything about keeping snakes, never claimed to, but I know that the way I keep my ball seems to work fine.

---

Again, I agree with your premise. I really do. A phrase that honestly makes me nauseous, though, is anyone saying "we've always done it this way and it works for us". To me it says they're either too ignorant to think of ways to improve, or too lazy to try. "We've always done it this way" is never EVER a good reason to keep doing something. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Again, I agree with your premise. I really do. A phrase that honestly makes me nauseous, though, is anyone saying "we've always done it this way and it works for us". To me it says they're either too ignorant to think of ways to improve, or too lazy to try. "We've always done it this way" is never EVER a good reason to keep doing something. :)

---

I'm always open to critique, if it will actually help the situation. I will not, however, change the way my snakes tank looks because its "more aesthetically pleasing" or "the $50 substrate works better than the $20", when in reality its exactly the same thing. My point is that just because a person has owned snakes longer, or more of them, is no reason to ve rude. I used to have a red tail boa we got when she was a hatchling, and she grew to be 7 ft, perfectly healthy her whole life. They didn't have forums back then, though. Lol.

New snake owners are already nervous that they're doing it wrong, any pet owner is that way, so when giving advice, give it in a friendly manner. I just read a post asking if snakes are ticklish, and instead of giving actual answers, people were just smartasses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MontyAndMelissa

New snake owners are already nervous that they're doing it wrong, any pet owner is that way, so when giving advice, give it in a friendly manner. I just read a post asking if snakes are ticklish, and instead of giving actual answers, people were just smartasses.

---

I think where the conflict is coming here is not clashes in husbandry methods, but new snakes owners, who've never owned a reptile before, reacting to things their snakes do as if it were a mammal, with the same kind of emotional response as higher brained animals. They are not mammals though, and I think the more seasoned keepers are just generally, gently amused by newbies' rampant propensity toward anthropomorphizing. Snakes do not have the emotion processing centers in their brains that most mammals and even some other reptiles do. That isn't to say that the animals don't express themselves at all, whether they are comfortable and relatively stress free in their environment, but learning those cues when you're used to how, say, a dog or cat would deliver them, can be an on going process. For an example: something like, "Oh, he's so curious, he loves to explore!" could actually mean for a snake that likes to stay still and hidden, like a BP, that there is something in its environment that is causing it discomfort, and it's looking for a means to get away from what ever that is.

Doing a little research and learning about the animals behavior in the wild can go a long way to deciphering what its captive behavior is actually trying to tell you, but it's still a trial and error process. New owners just need time and patience. In the mean time, reading things like "he loves me, so he gives me kisses!" is still going to be funny.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lizardlicks

I think where the conflict is coming here is not clashes in husbandry methods, but new snakes owners, who've never owned a reptile before, reacting to things their snakes do as if it were a mammal, with the same kind of emotional response as higher brained animals. They are not mammals though, and I think the more seasoned keepers are just generally, gently amused by newbies' rampant propensity toward anthropomorphizing. Snakes do not have the emotion processing centers in their brains that most mammals and even some other reptiles do. That isn't to say that the animals don't express themselves at all, whether they are comfortable and relatively stress free in their environment, but learning those cues when you're used to how, say, a dog or cat would deliver them, can be an on going process. For an example: something like, "Oh, he's so curious, he loves to explore!" could actually mean for a snake that likes to stay still and hidden, like a BP, that there is something in its environment that is causing it discomfort, and it's looking for a means to get away from what ever that is.

Doing a little research and learning about the animals behavior in the wild can go a long way to deciphering what its captive behavior is actually trying to tell you, but it's still a trial and error process. New owners just need time and patience. In the mean time, reading things like "he loves me, so he gives me kisses!" is still going to be funny.

---

Most snakes (that I've seen at least) won't venture near their owners face, unless they are slithering behind their neck for warmth. I know that when Monty is stressed out, he won't come near me, he will intentionally avoid me, even while I'm holding him. He will try to get away. If he is relaxed, he will slither behind my neck, and push his face against mine. (Cheek to cheek) and I know he is stress free. Monty is also usually face shy, but I know he's comfortable with me because I am the only one who can safely remove him from his tank and touch his head. Some things can be explained scientifically. But I also get the feeling that many of the "seasoned" snake owners here have done hours of research, own a few snakes, and think they know everything. What did people do when they owned snakes BEFORE there was the internet, or even books about snakes? They winged it. Just because you can type "ball python" into the google search engine, and click on a few links, doesn't mean you know everything about snakes. I went to school for 3 years for veterinary with an emphasis on herpetology, and an additional 2 for an emphasis on equine health. I don't know everything there is to know about animals, but when people ask for advice, I give them my personal opinion. Not a smart ass answer that just makes them feel stupid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MontyAndMelissa

I don't know everything there is to know about animals, but when people ask for advice, I give them my personal opinion. Not a smart ass answer that just makes them feel stupid.

---

I'm sorry, but if you can't distinguish the difference between a serious husbandry question where relevant responses are appropriate and a question that is "less than critical" that generates a bit of good-natured humor (like the tickling post you referred to), then that's a you problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric Alan

I'm sorry, but if you can't distinguish the difference between a serious husbandry question where relevant responses are appropriate and a question that is "less than critical" that generates a bit of good-natured humor (like the tickling post you referred to), then that's a you problem.

---

I can tell the difference, but there are some posts in which its not appropriate, ones where the owner is legitimately having a panic attack.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MontyAndMelissa

What did people do when they owned snakes BEFORE there was the internet, or even books about snakes? They winged it.

---

It's not like everyone was stranded on their own deserted island before the internet - people had other ways to communicate with each other about best practices. I, for one, am glad that we've come a long way since that time. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MontyAndMelissa

Most snakes (that I've seen at least) won't venture near their owners face, unless they are slithering behind their neck for warmth. I know that when Monty is stressed out, he won't come near me, he will intentionally avoid me, even while I'm holding him. He will try to get away. If he is relaxed, he will slither behind my neck, and push his face against mine. (Cheek to cheek) and I know he is stress free. Monty is also usually face shy, but I know he's comfortable with me because I am the only one who can safely remove him from his tank and touch his head. Some things can be explained scientifically. But I also get the feeling that many of the "seasoned" snake owners here have done hours of research, own a few snakes, and think they know everything. What did people do when they owned snakes BEFORE there was the internet, or even books about snakes? They winged it. Just because you can type "ball python" into the google search engine, and click on a few links, doesn't mean you know everything about snakes. I went to school for 3 years for veterinary with an emphasis on herpetology, and an additional 2 for an emphasis on equine health. I don't know everything there is to know about animals, but when people ask for advice, I give them my personal opinion. Not a smart ass answer that just makes them feel stupid.

---

Yeah, we probably could tone down the smart ass stuff a bit, sometimes it's really hard not to go with the first "lol wut" knee jerk response to something that sounds totally off the wall.

That said, the things people did before there was google, forums, or... okay no, books have been around since forever, even if modern print hasn't, and people like to write down their experiences, so let's go with easily acquired print-- anyway, the things they did before that was, err, inadvertently shortened the lifespan of, or out right kill their snakes through inexperience and misinformation. Early herpetologists learned through trial and error and observation of wild populations. They wrote down what worked, and what didn't and in this day, we benefit not off of one person's opinion on what works for their personal collection, but the total, accumulated knowledge of decades of keepers, in the scientific sphere, the commercial breeding one and even the experienced home keeper. Heck, the amount of stuff that's changed in just the last decade alone is phenomenal! And now with the internet that knowledge is literally seconds away from your fingertips, if your google-fu is awesome enough.

We all do still have to start some where though, and no one is born being a perfect pet owner!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric Alan

It's not like everyone was stranded on their own deserted island before the internet - people had other ways to communicate with each other about best practices. I, for one, am glad that we've come a long way since that time. :)

---

You can't send sarcasm through a smoke signal. [emoji14]

Another fun fact is that the internet (as we know it today) and this hobby are approximately the same age. Both got their beginnings (the WWW and Bob Clark's albino) in the early 90s and have obviously come a long ways since then. There hasn't really been a time before the internet when it comes to ball python morphs. Ball pythons, sure, but no one really cared much about them before the morphs came along.

Even if things sometimes get snippy on forums, I don't really come to them for knowledge-- I could get that from Google or the university library-- but the experience. If someone who's successfully owned and raised dozens and dozens of BPs tells me I should change something I usually at least give it a shot even if my methods have been working fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Another fun fact is that the internet (as we know it today) and this hobby are approximately the same age. Both got their beginnings (the WWW and Bob Clark's albino) in the early 90s and have obviously come a long ways since then. There hasn't really been a time before the internet when it comes to ball python morphs. Ball pythons, sure, but no one really cared much about them before the morphs came along.

---

I confess though, I've loved the normal beeps since I was a wee sprog before the internet, after I looked at all the pretty scaly babies in a reptile store in California. I didn't even know they came in so many colors until recently. I just couldn't get over their sweet puppy faces! ... Of course I kind of love EVERY sort of reptile, so take the as you will lol.

How frustrating do you think it is to see a new owner join the forum and then start giving half arse information about techniques they don't even use or have ever used? Or when they suggest a uth with a temp dial and don't even know what they are recommending or what a thermostat is?

Im not trying to be mean but want you to see that most times there is a reason people get snappy at certain things said here. It can be very frustrating for older users or more experienced owners to see a noob discount or discredit their advice or give bad information from their short time as a owner.

Every snake is different and so is every owner. We all have our own way of doing things but there are certain fundamentals that need to be kept and certain common practices help to do that., such as thermostats.

BTW, Most all of my snakes have ventured to my face and are not afraid of me. My GTP will climb all over my head and my bloods are drawn to my nose(their tongue's really tickle), and my BRB is the most curious snake I have and is always willing to check everything out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KMG

How frustrating do you think it is to see a new owner join the forum and then start giving half arse information about techniques they don't even use or have ever used? Or when they suggest a uth with a temp dial and don't even know what they are recommending or what a thermostat is?

Im not trying to be mean but want you to see that most times there is a reason people get snappy at certain things said here. It can be very frustrating for older users or more experienced owners to see a noob discount or discredit their advice or give bad information from their short time as a owner.

Every snake is different and so is every owner. We all have our own way of doing things but there are certain fundamentals that need to be kept and certain common practices help to do that., such as thermostats.

BTW, Most all of my snakes have ventured to my face and are not afraid of me. My GTP will climb all over my head and my bloods are drawn to my nose(their tongue's really tickle), and my BRB is the most curious snake I have and is always willing to check everything out.

---

I don't remember ever saying that I've never used the techniques you're talking about, in 2004 we owned a RTB, and we used all kinds of techniques with her. She grew to be 7 feet and was the only snake I'd ever known that liked children. That's where my fascination started. I live in an area where certain things, that people suggest, aren't available, so i suggest options that I know are available to me, and I'm told they're moronic ideas (not from you, but from others as well). The only exotic animal vet near me is almost 80 miles away, and the nearest reptile pet store is 4 miles from the vet, so I try to come up with options that may be a little unorthodox, but work. The "pet store" near me (about 2 miles) sells small animals and normal pet supplies but nothing for reptiles, and in an emergency, sometimes ordering online isn't an option.

My big Blood, BP, and BRB are all trustworthy with kids.

Well being that you didn't know what you were recommending last night with the uth with temp dial and didn't know what a tstat was it appears as though you have not used a uth correctly. So you were recommending something with little knowledge of it to another new owner which could cause them to waste time, money, and effort in following advice with no validity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MontyAndMelissa

I don't remember ever saying that I've never used the techniques you're talking about, in 2004 we owned a RTB, and we used all kinds of techniques with her. She grew to be 7 feet and was the only snake I'd ever known that liked children. That's where my fascination started. I live in an area where certain things, that people suggest, aren't available, so i suggest options that I know are available to me, and I'm told they're moronic ideas (not from you, but from others as well). The only exotic animal vet near me is almost 80 miles away, and the nearest reptile pet store is 4 miles from the vet, so I try to come up with options that may be a little unorthodox, but work. The "pet store" near me (about 2 miles) sells small animals and normal pet supplies but nothing for reptiles, and in an emergency, sometimes ordering online isn't an option.

---

Here are some general rules to abide by when answering questions:

If you've read about something that works - resist the urge to post.

If you've been practicing something for a short period of time and are ASSuming it works - resist the urge to post.

If you've been practicing something for a long period of time, have had long term success with it - share it with the group.

If you practiced something for a long period of time and it worked, but no longer practice it - discuss it as a viable option.

Refrain from discussing anything you aren't 100% familiar or experienced with.

Then a lot of bad information and confusion will cease to exist.

People who never have done something, people who parrot bad advice and people who seek to convert people to only one way of doing things just need to shut up.

In most cases, there are many effective ways to meet the husbandry requirements of most captive reptiles. If you are intent in making sure everyone does things your way and your way only...then you better make sure you've got thick skin.

Remember - many of the things people advise against doing can be done...they just may take more skill and experience. That does not mean you can't do it.

When you aren't talking to someone face to face, it's very hard to determine tone, humor, etc. This makes forums prime breeding ground for a lot of bruised egos and hurt feelings. Any emotional or interpersonal baggage tends to come out fairly quickly.

People often perceive insult where there is none, mainly because of insecurity.

Likewise people often get deeply hurt because they bring their low self esteem to the forum.

The best advice I can give you is to refrain from talking when you don't have something to say.

Refrain from talking unless you are sure about what you're talking about...and leave your emotional baggage at home.

..and refrain from ASSuming your snake likes anything other than being properly kept and cared for.

For many years our species assumed that all other animals acted mechanically and had no feelings. Now popular opinion holds that there are many creatures that feel and form emotional bonds. While I like many will cringe at a lot of the anthropomorphism going on about peoples pets I also think it would be arrogant of us to assume that nothing is going on in a snakes brain. Birds have tiny brains with a structure very different from our own and yet we’ve been astounded at their capability to build a tools and solve problems.

While I think that snakes are simple creatures I postulate that the ability to feel enjoyment in something is a very basic and primitive system, but until we find a way to listen to an other creatures brain we can't say for sure what if anything is going on up there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by salt

For many years our species assumed that all other animals acted mechanically and had no feelings. Now popular opinion holds that there are many creatures that feel and form emotional bonds. While I like many will cringe at a lot of the anthropomorphism going on about peoples pets I also think it would be arrogant of us to assume that nothing is going on in a snakes brain. Birds have tiny brains with a structure very different from our own and yet we’ve been astounded at their capability to build a tools and solve problems.

While I think that snakes are simple creatures I postulate that the ability to feel enjoyment in something is a very basic and primitive system, but until we find a way to listen to an other creatures brain we can't say for sure what if anything is going on up there.

---

... We aren't making assumptions though. We're basing this information off of scientific studies on snakes' brains. They are literally lacking those areas in the brain that produce and process higher, more complex emotions like anger, jealousy, affection etc. They do however experience more "primitive" emotions such as fear or pleasure, and can certainly come to associate this pleasure with specific people (say, the handler that feeds them all the time)!

I tend to think people short-change snakes' intelligence as well. Not talking about anthropomorphizing them, but assuming that everything in their brains must be analogous to ours. For example, in that article you linked to, lizards are talked about as only slightly more intelligent than snakes when they've shown complex learning behavior that has only before been seen in primates. I'd link to the study but I'm not sure it'd be available for everyone (university library thing) so here's an article talking about the study.
http://www.livescience.com/48165-bea...imitation.html

My point is, it's probably a bit narrow to assume that just because a reptile is missing X part of the brain, that those functions are absent. If a human is missing a part of the brain, it can go a ridiculously long time without being treated because other regions (once thought to be specific to their functions) can take on the function of the missing piece. Last conference I was at, I talked to a group of herpetologists who were studying social relationships between litter-mates in the Agkistrodon genus and finding that there was recognition and interaction there that no one has ever actually analyzed before.
I don't expect a valentine's card from any of my reptiles, but I don't think we really know very much about exactly what different bits of the reptile brain might do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DVirginiana

I tend to think people short-change snakes' intelligence as well. Not talking about anthropomorphizing them, but assuming that everything in their brains must be analogous to ours. For example, in that article you linked to, lizards are talked about as only slightly more intelligent than snakes when they've shown complex learning behavior that has only before been seen in primates. I'd link to the study but I'm not sure it'd be available for everyone (university library thing) so here's an article talking about the study.
http://www.livescience.com/48165-bea...imitation.html

My point is, it's probably a bit narrow to assume that just because a reptile is missing X part of the brain, that those functions are absent. If a human is missing a part of the brain, it can go a ridiculously long time without being treated because other regions (once thought to be specific to their functions) can take on the function of the missing piece. Last conference I was at, I talked to a group of herpetologists who were studying social relationships between litter-mates in the Agkistrodon genus and finding that there was recognition and interaction there that no one has ever actually analyzed before.
I don't expect a valentine's card from any of my reptiles, but I don't think we really know very much about exactly what different bits of the reptile brain might do.

---

Yeah, they kind of lumped snakes and lizards all together which is roughly as silly as lumping in a sparrow with an african grey when talking about bird cognizant processing and emotional intelligence. Different species with in the same FAMILY can have wildly variant levels of intelligence and social behavior, much less with in the same CLASS. It's was a very reduced/streamlined article for casual browsers though, not an actually published study (which I seem to be having difficulty finding. My google-fu is not strong enough it would seem). I will pester biologist friend and see if they can steer me at something more in depth.

Going back to the first page for a minute here. I have occasionally come across the long time snake keeper that has the attitude of being better than everyone else. But that is extremely rare. Most of these long time keepers on sites like this are very experienced and know what they are talking about. More often I come across new keepers who've barely kept one snake for a couple of months thinking that they are qualified to give advice to anyone else. Or that they know their animal better, so therefore these experts can't really know what they are talking about. And this does far more harm. They aren't experienced enough to be advising others, and this can actually have a negative outcome. Ive seen a ton of "advice" given that could potentially harm an animal. I've kept reptiles for almost twenty years now, but I still won't hand out advice on species I haven't had experience with.

The other side to this is that keepers who have been keeping for a long time need to understand that they can always still learn. No one is perfect and they should always be open to new ideas. That's why I don't keep ferrets the same way I did twenty years ago.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lizardlicks

Yeah, they kind of lumped snakes and lizards all together which is roughly as silly as lumping in a sparrow with an african grey when talking about bird cognizant processing and emotional intelligence. Different species with in the same FAMILY can have wildly variant levels of intelligence and social behavior, much less with in the same CLASS. It's was a very reduced/streamlined article for casual browsers though, not an actually published study (which I seem to be having difficulty finding. My google-fu is not strong enough it would seem). I will pester biologist friend and see if they can steer me at something more in depth.

---

Ugh, Google is the worst for trying to find a specific study. Even Google scholar is kind of unreliable unless you know exact titles half the time.
But agreed, even among snakes there seems to be a big difference in intelligence. At the repticon I went to a couple weeks ago, someone had a cobra, and I swear it was systematically looking for weak spots in the caging; it was following a grid and only returning to the same spots after it had gone around the whole enclosure. I've never seen a snake do anything like that before. It's usually just kind of blind nosing along the edges, but that cobra seemed to actually have a system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DVirginiana

Ugh, Google is the worst for trying to find a specific study. Even Google scholar is kind of unreliable unless you know exact titles half the time.
But agreed, even among snakes there seems to be a big difference in intelligence. At the repticon I went to a couple weeks ago, someone had a cobra, and I swear it was systematically looking for weak spots in the caging; it was following a grid and only returning to the same spots after it had gone around the whole enclosure. I've never seen a snake do anything like that before. It's usually just kind of blind nosing along the edges, but that cobra seemed to actually have a system.

---

I keep varanids and heloderma...as well as tetsudo.

They are consider "intelligent" as far as reptiles go.

I have kept many species of snake.

Some appear to be more intelligent than others. Some people have credited some species of snake as more interactive and therefore assume a higher degree of intelligence.

A ball python that is fairly uninterested in it's surroundings is assumed to be less intelligent than the boomslang or cribo that is constantly moving about and checking things out.

But does this behavior indicate intelligence? Or is that our interpretation of more active behavior?

Cribos and boomslangs arte active hunters and roamers. Ball pythons are not. Behavior that is necessitated and dictated by a biological imperative does not equal intelligence. In that sense, a cobra, drymarchon, dispholidus, or hydrodynastes that (through exploration) has a greater level of recognition and eventual acceptance of it's keeper does not equal intelligence. I could make a better argument that it's an adaptive by-product of their instinctual behavior rather than true intelligence.

Having worked with varanids and heloderms has muted any expectations I have towards intelligence in snakes. By and large, snakes are pretty dumb. For example, given two water bowls, a heloderm will often bathe in one and not the other. It will defecate in the one it bathes in and not the second - which is why I offer all my beadeds two water bowls.

Many heloderms will also avoid fouling their den, and there is a fairly predictive propensity for them to poop in the same place every time.

I feed my varanids dubia roaches. They recognize what the feeding bowl means and have shown that they can differentiate between one bowl and the other.

With both groups there is a definite and acknowledged recognition of the keeper, an ability to grasp simple routine husbandry patterns and in general, behaviors that are easier to recognize (fear, begging, annoyance, comfort, etc.)

I have had snakes that I have bonded with due to need (namely older ones that need extensive specialized care). While they show an eventual acceptance of more intensive handling and care, it takes much longer than it would in a more intelligent and interactive animal. I become more a tool for achieving comfort and alignment with their husbandry needs than something they look forward to seeing or interacting with.

Conversely, my oldest exasperatum will scratch at the door of her enclosure whenever I walk into the snake house - regardless of whether it's feeding time or not. I have come to symbolize head scratchings, water sprayings, and jaunts into the yard. If I wander off from her while in the garden she will waddle over to get closer to me.

Same with our tortoises...they will actively greet me and my kids when we get near their enclosure.

With both species, there is a recognition that we are indeed other creatures that meet several needs - some vital, some pleasurable. Never had the same degree of experience with a snake...of any species.

I have a question for the persons talking about snake intelligence levels. Out of curiosity, how long do you think a snake can remember things? Such as a rescue -how long can it remember abuse and associate people in general with said abuse? Or being attacked by a rat? How long do you think they remember that rats bite? (That might be more of an instinct thing, but you catch my drift). I know humans have short- and long-term memory banks in their brains. Do snakes have these areas as well? Do they have the ability to learn things, such as door a has a hide behind it that will provide safety and door b does not? Just a sudden spark of curiosity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skiploder

I keep varanids and heloderma...as well as tetsudo.

They are consider "intelligent" as far as reptiles go.

I have kept many species of snake.

Some appear to be more intelligent than others. Some people have credited some species of snake as more interactive and therefore assume a higher degree of intelligence.

A ball python that is fairly uninterested in it's surroundings is assumed to be less intelligent than the boomslang or cribo that is constantly moving about and checking things out.

But does this behavior indicate intelligence? Or is that our interpretation of more active behavior?

Cribos and boomslangs arte active hunters and roamers. Ball pythons are not. Behavior that is necessitated and dictated by a biological imperative does not equal intelligence. In that sense, a cobra, drymarchon, dispholidus, or hydrodynastes that (through exploration) has a greater level of recognition and eventual acceptance of it's keeper does not equal intelligence. I could make a better argument that it's an adaptive by-product of their instinctual behavior rather than true intelligence.

Having worked with varanids and heloderms has muted any expectations I have towards intelligence in snakes. By and large, snakes are pretty dumb. For example, given two water bowls, a heloderm will often bathe in one and not the other. It will defecate in the one it bathes in and not the second - which is why I offer all my beadeds two water bowls.

Many heloderms will also avoid fouling their den, and there is a fairly predictive propensity for them to poop in the same place every time.

I feed my varanids dubia roaches. They recognize what the feeding bowl means and have shown that they can differentiate between one bowl and the other.

With both groups there is a definite and acknowledged recognition of the keeper, an ability to grasp simple routine husbandry patterns and in general, behaviors that are easier to recognize (fear, begging, annoyance, comfort, etc.)

I have had snakes that I have bonded with due to need (namely older ones that need extensive specialized care). While they show an eventual acceptance of more intensive handling and care, it takes much longer than it would in a more intelligent and interactive animal. I become more a tool for achieving comfort and alignment with their husbandry needs than something they look forward to seeing or interacting with.

Conversely, my oldest exasperatum will scratch at the door of her enclosure whenever I walk into the snake house - regardless of whether it's feeding time or not. I have come to symbolize head scratchings, water sprayings, and jaunts into the yard. If I wander off from her while in the garden she will waddle over to get closer to me.

Same with our tortoises...they will actively greet me and my kids when we get near their enclosure.

With both species, there is a recognition that we are indeed other creatures that meet several needs - some vital, some pleasurable. Never had the same degree of experience with a snake...of any species.

---

Sobe, my green iguana, was quite a brilliant lizard. I don't think she cared for human interaction all that much, but she knew dang well that's where the food came from, and even learned to do a couple minor tricks for a food reward (such as tongue flicking my nose when I asked for kisses, or coming to her name like a dog). If you didn't have something she wanted though, you were a tolerable nuisance at best.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skiploder

I have had snakes that I have bonded with due to need (namely older ones that need extensive specialized care). While they show an eventual acceptance of more intensive handling and care, it takes much longer than it would in a more intelligent and interactive animal. I become more a tool for achieving comfort and alignment with their husbandry needs than something they look forward to seeing or interacting with.

---

I have an old blind Thamnophis that is like that. I'm the only one he'll let handle him normally. When he was going blind I had to work with him for months to teach him a new way of eating (simple association of a touch on the neck with food).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MontyAndMelissa

I have a question for the persons talking about snake intelligence levels. Out of curiosity, how long do you think a snake can remember things? Such as a rescue -how long can it remember abuse and associate people in general with said abuse? Or being attacked by a rat? How long do you think they remember that rats bite? (That might be more of an instinct thing, but you catch my drift). I know humans have short- and long-term memory banks in their brains. Do snakes have these areas as well? Do they have the ability to learn things, such as door a has a hide behind it that will provide safety and door b does not? Just a sudden spark of curiosity.

---

There's what people would call memory ie; something happens and you can recall it at will, then there's basic Hebbian principle. That's the more simple kind of 'memory' that is the association between two things that aren't naturally associated ie; you touch a flatworm then give it an electric shock it will eventually begin to run the second you touch it with or without a shock. There were a lot of studies done on a man whose hippocampus was completely ablated called Patient H.M. Really interesting case study if you're interested in memory/intelligence.
I feel like many snakes rely more on the second type of memory... The way mine will act if something goes out of their field of vision, I'm pretty sure they have no object permanence. I think my box turtle is much smarter. She actually will seem to look for certain people if they don't show up, so I think she can actually recall things like who her favorite people are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DVirginiana

The way mine will act if something goes out of their field of vision, I'm pretty sure they have no object permanence. I think my box turtle is much smarter. She actually will seem to look for certain people if they don't show up, so I think she can actually recall things like who her favorite people are.

---

Amusingly, I recently read that cats, whom we tend to view as more intelligent creatures, also have a pretty crap sense of object permanence. That's why they bat under the bathroom door when you go in there without them! :rolleyes:

Haha, my dog does that. He really freaks out if you go into the bathroom. Of course, I've never claimed he was particularly smart.