Rejoining

I have decided to rejoin the forum. Not because my snake is burnt, but because there is still so many questions I have that have not been answered about bp's. Just to update you, Marshall is doing great. Super friendly, and very relaxed. http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14...40569852ed.jpg
Not camera shy either!


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Originally Posted by gameonpython

I have decided to rejoin the forum. Not because my snake is burnt yet, but because there is still so many questions I have that have not been answered about bp's. Just to update you, Marshall is doing great. Super friendly, and very relaxed.
Not camera shy either!

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That's nice. Hopefully one of your questions is "Where can I get a decent thermostat?".

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Originally Posted by bcr229

That's nice. Hopefully one of your questions is "Where can I get a decent thermostat?".

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So far, not having a thermostat is proving to be just fine.


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Originally Posted by gameonpython

So far, not having a thermostat is proving to be just fine.

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You still haven't listened to the first piece of advice you were given, What makes you think people would give you more knowing you haven't tried to improve your husbandry already?

Welcome back. Good that Marshall is doing well. I'll have you know that Richard "Crunchy" Edward (my blue tongue) is also doing fine under his nice thermostatted care. Hmmph.
Commence the bickering!
:sabduel:

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

You still haven't listened to the first piece of advice you were given, What makes you think people would give you more knowing you haven't tried to improve your husbandry already?

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I did not come back to start drama or get put down for my decisions. Who says I have to listen to everything this forum says? I have not disrespected anyone, despite what you may think.

Also, I have tried to improve my husbandry. I got a digital thermometer as you guys suggested, but it ended up not working. Obviously what I am doing is working perfectly fine, as nothing is abnormal about his behavior.


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Originally Posted by gameonpython

I did not come back to start drama or get put down for my decisions. Who says I have to listen to everything this forum says?

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You haven't listened to anything we've said, not counting a digital thermometer.

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Originally Posted by Sir Hognose

You haven't listened to anything we've said, not counting a digital thermometer.

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I've only been told from this forum that I need a thermostat and a digital thermometer.


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And better substrate, hides, QT...

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Originally Posted by Sir Hognose

And better substrate, hides, QT...

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All of which I already knew.


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Just because nothing happened yet doesn't mean it can't. Before I knew much about proper exotics husbandry and equipment (this was over six years ago) I had a burrowing frog in a tank with a heat pad and no thermostat. She lived in it for almost a year before it went haywire one day and ran over 100 degrees. She's fine now but had various health problems for over a year after that. I wish that one of the sources I had looked to had told me I needed a thermostat.
Just last week my parents, who had much the same view on thermostats as you, called asking why one of their snakes was coiled in the water bowl for two days. I told them it was probably the heat pad, and when they checked they told me a section of the heat pad was reading about 120. Luckily this snake was smart enough to get in its water dish so there were no burns.

I'm a member on about five forums for completely different species and the one piece of advice you'll get on every one of them is that you shouldn't use a heat pad w/o a thermostat.

I hate to beat this dead horse but I just cannot see how that heat mat is staying 90f....measured on glass underneath substrate. That's impossible unless you aren't using the heat mat. I got out my small zoomed and put it unregulated under my spare 10 gallon tank we use for live feeders sometimes. Measured on the glass under the substrate (where you are supposed to measure it) it was 106 after 10 min and 109 after 20. It is a new mat that I just never used cuz I changed to Flexwatt. On top of 2" of substrate it was 98...after 10 minutes and 101 after 20 min. I guess if I piled 4 inches of substrate over it and prayed my baby never decided to burrow it would measure lower. SMH


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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

Just because nothing happened yet doesn't mean it can't. Before I knew much about proper exotics husbandry and equipment (this was over six years ago) I had a burrowing frog in a tank with a heat pad and no thermostat. She lived in it for almost a year before it went haywire one day and ran over 100 degrees. She's fine now but had various health problems for over a year after that. I wish that one of the sources I had looked to had told me I needed a thermostat.
Just last week my parents, who had much the same view on thermostats as you, called asking why one of their snakes was coiled in the water bowl for two days. I told them it was probably the heat pad, and when they checked they told me a section of the heat pad was reading about 120. Luckily this snake was smart enough to get in its water dish so there were no burns.

I'm a member on about five forums for completely different species and the one piece of advice you'll get on every one of them is that you shouldn't use a heat pad w/o a thermostat.

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It's just so confusing, this forum says thermostats are a must and tell me stories like yours. But others I know and have talked to who own animals who need heat pads do not use thermostats and have no problems. Do understand why I might be a little confused?


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Originally Posted by calmolly1

I hate to beat this dead horse but I just cannot see how that heat mat is staying 90f....measured on glass underneath substrate. That's impossible unless you aren't using the heat mat. I got out my small zoomed and put it unregulated under my spare 10 gallon tank we use for live feeders sometimes. Measured on the glass under the substrate (where you are supposed to measure it) it was 106 after 10 min and 109 after 20. It is a new mat that I just never used cuz I changed to Flexwatt. On top of 2" of substrate it was 98...after 10 minutes and 101 after 20 min. I guess if I piled 4 inches of substrate over it and prayed my baby never decided to burrow it would measure lower. SMH


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Yes underneath it is about 120f. But on top with a few layers of paper towel it stays at 90-92f. The paper towel stays down and Marshall does not burrow because the hide I have is heavy.


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Originally Posted by gameonpython

It's just so confusing, this forum says thermostats are a must and tell me stories like yours. But others I know and have talked to who own animals who need heat pads do not use thermostats and have no problems. Do understand why I might be a little confused?


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I understand why you're confused. Sometimes a heatpad can go years without malfunctioning (if ever) like mine did, and sometimes it'll malfunction right off the bat like my parents' did. Sometimes the temps may not be hot enough to burn, but might still be hot enough to throw off an animal's internal chemistry (I know it can wreck a frog's kidneys long before a burn happens). Someone who's never had a malfunction is a lot more likely to say you don't need one, but if you keep reptiles long enough you'll see it happen. Your BP could live up to 40 years, so the odds of it happening at least once during that time are quite high.

Edit: It doesn't always have to be a malfunction. Even just running normally can get too hot.

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Originally Posted by Sir Hognose

Welcome back. Good that Marshall is doing well. I'll have you know that Richard "Crunchy" Edward (my blue tongue) is also doing fine under his nice thermostatted care. Hmmph.
Commence the bickering!
:sabduel:

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Incredibly off topic but Sir Hognose, I didn't know we had that emoticon and it has made my day.

As I have said before, everyone on this thread will tell you to get a thermostat. But like Deborah said, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Obviously you are too stubborn to listen to any of us, so people are less likely to give advice and suggestions if you aren't going to listen to them.

On a side note, did you get your ambient temperatures figured out and has your snake eaten yet?

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Originally Posted by Reed12321

As I have said before, everyone on this thread will tell you to get a thermostat. But like Deborah said, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Obviously you are too stubborn to listen to any of us, so people are less likely to give advice and suggestions if you aren't going to listen to them.

On a side note, did you get your ambient temperatures figured out and has your snake eaten yet?

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His ambient temps are fine, and feeding is scheduled for Tuesday.


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Originally Posted by gameonpython

His ambient temps are fine, and feeding is scheduled for Tuesday.


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what are the ambient temps? How can you tell if your digital thermometer is broken?

What other kinds of animals are you getting advice for? The reason I ask is because all reptiles are not the same in their requirements or tolerance of heat. Many people unfamiliar with each specific species simply aren't educated to make informed recommendations (or, worse, they think they are and still make generic recommendations). Off the top of my head, bearded dragons can tolerate upwards of 110 F, uromastyx upwards of 120 F, and leopard geckos are closer to BPs at 90 F. A heat mat, for better or worse, is designed for all of these animals in mind. For this reason, thermostats are recommended for the lower temperature-tolerant species (such as ball pythons), whereas they're not as critical for others.

Take this information for what you will, but a heat mat doesn't care if you have a ball python or a uromastyx - it will still reach the same temperature for both if left to its own accord. It's up to us to fine tune it, through the use of a thermostat, for the pets we choose to keep.

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Originally Posted by gameonpython

Yes underneath it is about 120f. But on top with a few layers of paper towel it stays at 90-92f. The paper towel stays down and Marshall does not burrow because the hide I have is heavy.

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:) I know you're probably too young to get this reference, but here goes anyway:
http://www.quickmeme.com/img/42/4255...2c9d1cd1e8.jpg

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

:) I know you're probably too young to get this reference, but here goes anyway:
http://www.quickmeme.com/img/42/4255...2c9d1cd1e8.jpg

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I cackled. Thank you! And that goes double for me - those heat mats are designed for animals that can withstand up to 120F temps, wheras bp's start to have internal and BRAIN DAMAGE done at 95F. Do the smart and right thing and buy a thermostat.

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Originally Posted by gameonpython

Yes underneath it is about 120f. But on top with a few layers of paper towel it stays at 90-92f. The paper towel stays down and Marshall does not burrow because the hide I have is heavy.


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The temp drops by 30 degrees due to a few sheets of paper toweling? Those must be some amazing paper towels. :O

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Originally Posted by MarkS

The temp drops by 30 degrees due to a few sheets of paper toweling? Those must be some amazing paper towels. :O

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There's probably enough of an air gap between several sheets of paper towel that the temperature could drop on the top paper towel UNTIL something heavy - like your ball python - lies on them and they get compressed against the bottom of the glass.

Also, OP has said he's not using a digital thermometer or temp gun so he really doesn't know the surface temperature on that top paper towel.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

There's probably enough of an air gap between several sheets of paper towel that the temperature could drop on the top paper towel UNTIL something heavy - like your ball python - lies on them and they get compressed against the bottom of the glass.

Also, OP has said he's not using a digital thermometer or temp gun so he really doesn't know the surface temperature on that top paper towel.

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Very Good Point !!

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Originally Posted by Reed12321

what are the ambient temps? How can you tell if your digital thermometer is broken?

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The ambient temps stay around 70f. I can tell because when I put it by my house thermostat it reads differently and jumps around quite a bit.


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Originally Posted by MarkS

The temp drops by 30 degrees due to a few sheets of paper toweling? Those must be some amazing paper towels. :O

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Yes actually hey are amazing paper towels.


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Good luck with that.

http://mythicmeditations.com/wp-cont...ning-house.jpg

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Originally Posted by bcr229

There's probably enough of an air gap between several sheets of paper towel that the temperature could drop on the top paper towel UNTIL something heavy - like your ball python - lies on them and they get compressed against the bottom of the glass.

Also, OP has said he's not using a digital thermometer or temp gun so he really doesn't know the surface temperature on that top paper towel.

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If you read the entire post, I m using a digital thermometer but it doesn't work and I need to get a new one. It was fine for the first few days, but then started getting all jumpy and weird so I have to return it and get a different one.




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Quote:

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Originally Posted by gameonpython

The ambient temps stay around 70f. I can tell because when I put it by my house thermostat it reads differently and jumps around quite a bit.


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70 is too cold ...... you want your ambient temp to be around 80f

I have been told by people on the forum here that if you have a room ambient temperature of 85, or thereabouts that ball pythons will be fine without a hotspot. If this is true why would you need a hotspot closer to 90, when a hotspot of 85 would be fine. Just curious, with that being said I do have thermostats for mine, and keep my ambient around 80, with the hotspot about 88-90 :gj:

I have a question. So I keep getting told that just because my heat pad is okay now, it will malfunction and get too hot. So if I had a thermostat, what if the thermostat malfunctioned? Then you would have the same problem. So basically you just can't win either way.


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Okay, a few questions. Sorry if you've answered these before.

what kind of cage? (glass aquarium, critter keeper, plastic storage box, wooden cage, plastic cage, etc...)

How many different heating devices are in use?

What kind of heating device(s)? (heat pads, heat tape, heat cable, heat panels, heat lamps, ceramit heat emitters, etc...)

Where is the heating device placed in relation to everything else in the tank? (under the cage, inside the cage, on top of the cage, on the side of the cage etc...)

Is the heating device being regulated in any way? (rheostat, thermostat, different wattage devices, timer, etc...)

How are you measuring the temperatures? (analog thermometer, digital thermometer, temp gun, by hand, etc.... )

Where are you measuring the temperatures? (ie: on the surface of the substrate, on the surface of the cage, underneath the cage, on top of the cage, several inches above the cage floor, inside the hide box, on top of the hide box, outside the hidebox, etc...)

70 is WAY too cold. That's why your snake hides in his hot hide all the time. He goes into a place where the floor is WAY TOO HOT, and then comes outside into an arctic tundra. There's no middle ground. Your heat needs to be at least 10 degrees warmer.

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Originally Posted by gameonpython

I have a question. So I keep getting told that just because my heat pad is okay now, it will malfunction and get too hot. So if I had a thermostat, what if the thermostat malfunctioned? Then you would have the same problem. So basically you just can't win either way.


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It's kind of like how airbags in a car sometimes fail to deploy. That doesn't mean there aren't a hundred reasons that they're a good idea.

I've had thermostats for years now, and none of them have malfunctioned. They're pretty reliable pieces of equipment, especially compare to heat pads.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, they can get too hot even without a malfunction. It's working fine, but there's a good chance it's over 90 degrees, but you won't know until you can replace that thermometer. I personally wouldn't trust any readings from one that broke in a matter of days.

I personally use an infrared heat gun to spot check various areas in my enclosures.

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Originally Posted by gameonpython

I have a question. So I keep getting told that just because my heat pad is okay now, it will malfunction and get too hot. So if I had a thermostat, what if the thermostat malfunctioned? Then you would have the same problem. So basically you just can't win either way.

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Its NOT okay now. 120 degrees is too hot.
I sure wish your snake could talk, then again you think Im rude because of your ignorance and unwillingness to take preemptive measures.

Personally I think gameonpython is a troll, and just comes here to cause trouble. If we ignore it maybe it will go away ;)

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Originally Posted by gameonpython

I have a question. So I keep getting told that just because my heat pad is okay now, it will malfunction and get too hot. So if I had a thermostat, what if the thermostat malfunctioned? Then you would have the same problem. So basically you just can't win either way.


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Actually most good thermostats have built in shut off if its above a factory or user setting. All UTH will run full throttle unless regulated.

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h1...pszdz9tb8r.jpg

Small pad plugged in less than 10 minutes

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Originally Posted by gameonpython

I have a question.

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I have a question too. Why do you keep avoiding the questions that are most important to have answered in order to give you the kind of help and direction you seem to be looking for?

If you look at the instructions for ANY heat source designed for reptiles it says do not run without regulation by a thermostat. We are not telling you this for our health or to get you to waste money. This advise is being given to you for the Health of your animal and for that purpose only. If you look at the animals that most if not all of the people on the site raise they are all ball pythons as well as others. Amoung the BPs are some very expensive morphs. The people telling you this as well as myself use these devises to protect our animals. Not for any other reason. You can get a zoomed rheostate from most pet stores and that will be better than nothing at all.

One of the main reasons I'm not taking advice from this forum regarding heating, is because none of it makes logical sense. For example, I have two whites tree frogs, and am on frog forum. Well, they constantly tell me that my frogs need fecal tests and that my substrate is bad. I have had these frogs for a year now and they are happy and healthy, while another person on the forum did all the stuff I didn't, including fecal testing, and giving her frogs medications. One of her frogs has died, and the others are sick.

I shared that example because it proves that less is more. You do not need extra all the time. My snake will not die nor does he even care if I don't get a thermostat.

In the wild, ball pythons come across all sorts of different temperatures, including low and high. Having a constant ambient temp of 80 provides no way for Marshall to escape unwanted heat, hence the reason for a hot side and a cool side.

Yes the heat pad itself is about 120f. On the surface inside the cave where Marshall lays is 90-92f.

Please read this whole post if you want to comment, not just skim through it.


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With at least five or six people in this thread alone who have years of experience with multiple snakes of this exact species, as well as other herps that require heat, I wonder why you are so resistant to the idea of a thermostat. Is it because they're expensive? Because buddy, I gotta tell you, if you think a thermostat is too pricey, then wait until you get the vet bill for your sick snake.

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Originally Posted by gameonpython

In the wild, ball pythons come across all sorts of different temperatures, including low and high. Having a constant ambient temp of 80 provides no way for Marshall to escape unwanted heat, hence the reason for a hot side and a cool side.

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Not as much as you might think:

• Hottest temperature ever in Ghana: 102 F
• Average high temperatures: 80 F - 88 F
• Lowest temperature ever in Ghana: 64 F
• Average low temperatures: 74 F - 79 F
• Information source: http://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePag...hy/climate.php

There's a reason that we recommend the temperatures that we do. It's not because we made this stuff up ourselves.

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Originally Posted by gameonpython

One of the main reasons I'm not taking advice from this forum regarding heating, is because none of it makes logical sense. For example, I have two whites tree frogs, and am on frog forum. Well, they constantly tell me that my frogs need fecal tests and that my substrate is bad. I have had these frogs for a year now and they are happy and healthy, while another person on the forum did all the stuff I didn't, including fecal testing, and giving her frogs medications. One of her frogs has died, and the others are sick.

I shared that example because it proves that less is more. You do not need extra all the time. My snake will not die nor does he even care if I don't get a thermostat.

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I'm also a member on frog forum and own a WTF as well as a pacman. Fecals are recommended if the animal is acting sick, is going to live in a communal setup, or when the owner has a very large frog collection. The person you're talking about is probably dealing with something communicable and unrelated to basic care.

Your example does NOTHING to prove that 'less is more' as you put it. WTFs are tough to kill. Owning them for a year doesn't mean anything. When you've owned those frogs for another 12 years, then maybe what you say about it would have some weight. Just because an animal isn't dead or dying doesn't mean it's being correctly kept.

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Originally Posted by gameonpython

In the wild, ball pythons come across all sorts of different temperatures, including low and high. Having a constant ambient temp of 80 provides no way for Marshall to escape unwanted heat, hence the reason for a hot side and a cool side.

Yes the heat pad itself is about 120f. On the surface inside the cave where Marshall lays is 90-92f.

Please read this whole post if you want to comment, not just skim through it.


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In the wild, ball pythons do not live in areas with 70 degree ambient temperatures all the time. Thousands of them also die every year from starvation, exposure, and predation. We don't need to mimic the less pleasant aspects of nature in our setups.

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Originally Posted by gameonpython

Yes the heat pad itself is about 120f. On the surface inside the cave where Marshall lays is 90-92f.

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You do not know this, since you've been measuring with the wrong kind of thermometer or the broken one.

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Originally Posted by gameonpython

In the wild, ball pythons come across all sorts of different temperatures, including low and high. Having a constant ambient temp of 80 provides no way for Marshall to escape unwanted heat, hence the reason for a hot side and a cool side.

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Show me where in the wild they have someone running an elctric heating mat wide open at 120 degrees.
Majority of their days are spent in rodent burrows, doubt its that hot in there either.

I can get my wife to school you on Dumpys, dragons, fire belly toads, and even Mountain Chicken Frogs.
I dont type to see myself read and I dont care if I hurt your feelings. Get over it and grow up.
YOU chose to bring an animal into your house and care for it so why the hell do you feel the need to gamle with its life and safety?
You bash forums because you are getting information you dont agree with then why are you on here or there?
You seem to like drama and yes you lack of care for your animals gets under my skin.
All I can do is shake my head and hope that some time in your life you are the one in the box.

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Originally Posted by gameonpython

One of the main reasons I'm not taking advice from this forum regarding heating, is because none of it makes logical sense. For example, I have two whites tree frogs, and am on frog forum. Well, they constantly tell me that my frogs need fecal tests and that my substrate is bad. I have had these frogs for a year now and they are happy and healthy, while another person on the forum did all the stuff I didn't, including fecal testing, and giving her frogs medications. One of her frogs has died, and the others are sick.

I shared that example because it proves that less is more. You do not need extra all the time. My snake will not die nor does he even care if I don't get a thermostat.

In the wild, ball pythons come across all sorts of different temperatures, including low and high. Having a constant ambient temp of 80 provides no way for Marshall to escape unwanted heat, hence the reason for a hot side and a cool side.

Yes the heat pad itself is about 120f. On the surface inside the cave where Marshall lays is 90-92f.

Please read this whole post if you want to comment, not just skim through it.


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Ok so heat pad is 120f. Its attached to the bottom of a glass tank. Do you not comprehend that that glass will get as hot as the pad? How do you know its 90f where he lays? Do you have a temp gun? As for other forums saying you don't need a thermostat for a UTH, go ask the people on ReptileInsider or Redtailboa.com. They will all tell you the same thing, a UTH CAN be run with no regulation but you are playing Russian roulette and sooner or later you will lose. Are you really so irresponsible to the animals in your care that you will gamble THEIR happiness, health and welfare over something as cheap as a $35 Hydrofarm thermostat? I'm gonna guess you are the same sort that if your animal got sick, you would just let it sit there and "hope" it got better. My words are harsh but I just don't understand why some people even buy animals if they aren't willing to give them what they need or safeguard them from possible harm.

And you say your snake wont die without a thermostat, will you bet his life on it? Cause that is what you are doing now. And if you think UTH never fail, you are dreaming. They fail, overheat, shortout more than you think. Anyways, good luck and if you are unfortunate enough to have the UTH fail and your snake gets burnt, you will pay about 8 times the cost of a Hydrofarm thermostat in just vet bills not counting the time you will need to invest in nursing that animal back to health assuming it doesn't die.

World's greatest troll.