When to feed/handle

Ok I just brought my first BP home (male Mojave) I'm hearing from some folks wait 2 to 3 days to handle/feed then some say a week. Please tell me which one and do I handle first then feed or feed then handle?

Generally you wait 1 week after its home to try and feed. As for handling, most say don't handle 24 hours prior to feeding and 2-3 days after feeding. But each snake is different. My red tail boa will eat no matter what I do. She is a machine. I actually pick her up while she is holding her rat and put her into a shallow heavy ceramic dish so she doesn't eat aspen. My baby bp started eating 2 days after I got her home and I can handle her prior to feeding and she still goes ape:cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r: for a rat when I put it in. So like I said, each snake has its own personality but what I said above is the general rule.

I literally just got done answering this question in another thread. :)

Enjoy the read! http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2307274

Best regards,
Eric

I handle my animals day 1 if they are receptive. If they are explorative and using their tongue to smell around, if they aren't in a defensive etc. I read my animals very well after so many years of working with them. Some snakes need a week or two to feel safe and adjusted. Remember you don't play with a snake. You support them and give them security for the world. If you can make them feel safe day 1 do it. I have had my lesser enchi female for 3 weeks and I could tell day 1 she needed her own time. I gave it to her and she is amazing now. The other 30+ snakes were all handled day 1 then ate day 3 no problem. Be calm. Be supportive. Move slow but with conviction. Don't hesitate and worry about your Animal. It makes them worry. I think they can feel our vibration from our soul. My animals know on some molecular level I am their security. Because I broadcast that feeling with my whole being.

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Originally Posted by Foolish1

I think they can feel our vibration from our soul. My animals know on some molecular level I am their security. Because I broadcast that feeling with my whole being.

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This made me smile. Thank you. :)

My girl said it last night. She wanted to call me the snake whisperer. But she said they don't hear so I am the snake vibrator. It all comes down to your internal feeling. Slow your heartbeat. Be a tree for them. Become security and calming. If you feel any emotions they feel them too. They smell the chemical change in our odor. They feel your heartbeat. Become one with them and let them know you are their security.

Aaaaaand I just threw up in my mouth a little bit. Too many rainbows and unicorns for me.

That's fine by me. People nowadays don't not how to slow down and relax. I tried to verbalize a way to make your body relaxed. If you don't think our emotions smell differently you havent done any research. You can lie to your conscious self but your body emits certain odors and vibrations due to how it's going. Your blood pumps faster and your skin oils change with aggression or fear. This is fact. I personally hate rainbow and unicorn hippies. Maybe one day we shall ride against them with our hatred atop giant black steeds. Until then I was just saying how you can slow your entire being down and emit certain emotions on a more than verbal level.

I don't ever enforce my will upon my animals. I'm just there for them. Like a tree is. Gtps love trees and perches it makes them feel safe. Hence why I said be a tree. Just be there for them and let them exist. They respect you more for it.

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

I literally just got done answering this question in another thread. :)

Enjoy the read! http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2307274

Best regards,
Eric

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Ok good info but I want to feed him outside his enclosure, how would that work?

I didn't say I didn't agree with you. I just meant that your choice of words was a bit over the top for my taste. When you started talking about your girl calling you a snake vibrator, I pretty much lost it (for better or worse).

In the sense of they can't hear me but feel me. Emanating vibrations. Now that I think of a snake vibrator in a different sense I will consult her on her word choices haha.

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Originally Posted by breadpython14

Ok good info but I want to feed him outside his enclosure, how would that work?

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Outside enclosure feeding causes more stress in my opinion. Get a snake hook and hook train if you are worried. They don't get food aggressive in tank from my experience. Just make sure they know food and fingers are two different things. Once they are used to your smell and hadling most aggression goes away.

I feed a couple of mine including the BP outside the enclosure in a tupperware feeding tub. You can immediately see her attitude change into hunting mode the second she goes in that tub. I usually leave her in there for a bit to calm down after eating, then gently move her back to her home.
She's generally pretty chill though. Feeding outside the enclosure might be more stress than it's worth for a snake that really doesn't like handling.

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Originally Posted by breadpython14

Ok good info but I want to feed him outside his enclosure, how would that work?

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Can I ask why you are wanting to do so (feed outside of his enclosure) before I give you an answer that may not be relevant to your specific situation?

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Can I ask why you are wanting to do so (feed outside of his enclosure) before I give you an answer that may not be relevant to your specific situation?

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Well I was told by the breeder to do it

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

I feed a couple of mine including the BP outside the enclosure in a tupperware feeding tub. You can immediately see her attitude change into hunting mode the second she goes in that tub. I usually leave her in there for a bit to calm down after eating, then gently move her back to her home.
She's generally pretty chill though. Feeding outside the enclosure might be more stress than it's worth for a snake that really doesn't like handling.

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What about the substrate? Didn't want situation where it got caught in his throat. I'm using cypress mulch.

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Can I ask why you are wanting to do so (feed outside of his enclosure) before I give you an answer that may not be relevant to your specific situation?

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Honestly it's 50-50 on what I've read on feeding in or out its enclosure and I'm confused.

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Originally Posted by breadpython14

Honestly it's 50-50 on what I've read on feeding in or out its enclosure and I'm confused.

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The truth is that there are no good reasons, from the snake's perspective, that necessitate feeding in a separate enclosure.

Here are a few key points to think about:

• Your snake will not be more prone to aggression if you feed it in its enclosure.
• Substrate impaction issues, while easy to imagine happening, are actually incredibly rare.
• The snake is actually put under more stress because of the handling/moving before and after feeding time, increasing the chances of a refused meal or a regurge afterwards.
• You are actually putting yourself more at risk of being bit by handling an animal while its in feeding mode. Many animals stay in feeding mode for quite some time after eating.

Feed your snake in its regular enclosure where it is most comfortable for them and most convenient for you. It's really as easy as that. :)

Agreed with every single point. Well versed.

Is there a serious issue with feeding BPs in a separate enclosure, or is it one of those things that varies from keeper to keeper? The things you said make sense, but I'm in the same boat as the OP in that it's something I've seen multiple sources and keepers that either recommend it or are indifferent about it.

(Most of my snakes are of a species that regularly co-habits, so removing particularly shy or aggressive feeders from the communal tank for feeding purposes is something I've always done. At the time, I assumed the risk/rewards would be about the same for the python.)

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

Is there a serious issue with feeding BPs in a separate enclosure, or is it one of those things that varies from keeper to keeper? The things you said make sense, but I'm in the same boat as the OP in that it's something I've seen multiple sources and keepers that either recommend it or are indifferent about it.

(Most of my snakes are of a species that regularly co-habits, so removing particularly shy or aggressive feeders from the communal tank for feeding purposes is something I've always done. At the time, I assumed the risk/rewards would be about the same for the python.)

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On it's surface I wouldn't call it a serious issue, but the potential is there for it to become one. As I said before, it can complicate things and introduce unnecessary risks for both the keeper and the snake. If you can come up with a truly beneficial reason to feed a ball python in a separate enclosure, I'm all ears.

Can't come up with any; she seems pretty neutral about it, but I see how it could cause minor stress.
Mainly, she seems to know that that tub means feeding time (goes into hunt-mode in it even if there's no mouse to be seen) and it just seemed natural to keep reinforcing that. She was up for adoption bc of 'food aggression' and I just kept feeding her the way she was used to and the way I feed a couple of my cohabiting Thamnophis. May try feeding in-tank next feeding, see how it goes.
Haven't had time to do the forum thing for awhile, but I've actually never heard anyone present a strong case against feeding out of the tank, so I was interested. Your arguments make sense so IMO it's worth a shot.

I believe feeding in tanks are fine as long as you are handling your snakes enough. If the only time their tub gets opened is when a rat or mouse goes in they will become aggressive. My snakes know my hand vs a mouse now. Well everyone except my male retic. He still is figuring it out.

Just feed your bp in the enclosure. Feeding outside was an old school idea that has been pretty well debunked as being useful. I have a 5ftish red tail boa that I feed in her enclosure and she can tell the difference easily between feeding time and "play time". Mostly by the scent of a rat which throws her into feeding mode before I even get the cage door open. Also the problems outweigh the benefits. Try moving a 4-5ft snake that is in feeding mode plus try moving one with a full belly. Sure you can leave them in the feeding cage for an hour or 2 depending how strong a feeding response your snake has but then its getting cold when it needs the heat the most. You can use a snake stick or a rolled up newspaper or a paper towel roll to turn off the feeding response in the enclosure but like I said, my red tail who has a very strong feeding response doesn't go into food mode unless she actually smells a rat in the room. If you are worried about substrate as I am, just use newspaper on the floor before feeding or what I use is a big 1 inch high ceramic casserole dish like thing that I throw under her after she grabs the rat. My red tail wont let go of a rat she grabs for anything so I just let her grab the rat, then grab the tail, lift it up along with the snakes head and neck and slide the dish under her and plop her head and the rat into the dish and she eats it np with no aspen being eaten. I've been doing that for almost 2 years now and it works great. But like I said, newspaper on the floor over the aspen or eco earth or cypress before you feed her works too. Avoid paper towels as the covering since I have seen and read of snakes eating the paper towel with the rat since it gets scented and is soft and it actually caused impaction and killed the snake. So stick to newspaper or some other paper that is more rigid than paper towels or like I said, find a shallow dish that fits the rat and half your snake and use that.

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Originally Posted by Foolish1

If the only time their tub gets opened is when a rat or mouse goes in they will become aggressive.

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My parents bought a couple about a year ago that are ridiculously aggressive for that exact reason. All mine are pretty good about not biting hands.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

Can't come up with any; she seems pretty neutral about it, but I see how it could cause minor stress.
Mainly, she seems to know that that tub means feeding time (goes into hunt-mode in it even if there's no mouse to be seen) and it just seemed natural to keep reinforcing that. She was up for adoption bc of 'food aggression' and I just kept feeding her the way she was used to and the way I feed a couple of my cohabiting Thamnophis. May try feeding in-tank next feeding, see how it goes.
Haven't had time to do the forum thing for awhile, but I've actually never heard anyone present a strong case against feeding out of the tank, so I was interested. Your arguments make sense so IMO it's worth a shot.

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The strong case against it is try doing that with a 8-10ft boa or a 14ft retic, both of which have very strong feeding responses. It can be a recipe for disaster if that snake decides its still hungry and you open the feeding bin and put your arm in to move them. Granted, for a bp, its not a big deal as they don't get big but if you look at some of the boa or other big snake forums, you will see a lot people say not to feed in separate bins.

Yeah my red tail boa is so tame she actually likes her head pet and when I do, she will usually crawl all the way out of her hide and stretch out to get her whole body pet or she crawls out the front door and onto my arm or out the left or right side to the table to come out and play. My little bp is still learning the ropes as I've only had her 2 weeks. My old bp knew food time from play time as well again mostly by the scent of a rat in the room. But if the only time you open is to feed, then yes it will trigger a response. They are creatures of habit.

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Originally Posted by Foolish1

If the only time their tub gets opened is when a rat or mouse goes in they will become aggressive.

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What is your evidence of this?

I very rarely hold any of my snakes and have only ever fed them in their enclosures. My personal experience: I have more than a few ball pythons - none of which are "aggressive" snakes. What I do have is snakes with a great feeding response when they catch the smell of thawing rodents on feeding day. Outside of feeding day, I'm not the least bit concerned of getting bit when I open a tub to do regular cleaning/etc.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

My parents bought a couple about a year ago that are ridiculously aggressive for that exact reason. All mine are pretty good about not biting hands.

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Are you confident in that (about your parent's snakes)? What was their husbandry like? Feeding schedule? What were they eating?

Evidence is 15 ft snakes that want nothing to do with anyone because for 10 years a rabbit was thrown in and never touched or cared for. Husbandry was fine but damn was he an aggressive bugger. Wasn't my snake but it happens evidence is something hard to come up with for situations like this.

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Are you confident in that? Biting =/= aggression.

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It's definitely a feeding response (Is that considered a form of aggression? It was in my neuro courses.) not fear. Theirs are all garters, so they're relying more heavily on vision than a BP would; basing this on personal experience and the fact that they're diurnal and known to chase down prey.
My BP has a history of getting aggressive around food and towards hands reaching into her home. I could see the potential for her to get very snippy and tank-aggressive if she weren't used to hands coming in there and messing with her. Some of my other snakes I could probably go months without handling and I don't think they'd bite. I feel like the truth of the "not handling makes them aggressive" statement probably depends a lot on the individual snake.
Is there evidence one way or the other, like a study or something, or is it mostly anecdotal?

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

What was their husbandry like? Feeding schedule? What were they eating?

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Husbandry was/is spot on. I've been working with that genus since I was 12 and active in the hobbyist community for years, so I supervised the setup and husbandry. Feeding is every 5-7 days depending on when they last took food, and they were eating pinkies, which look a lot like human fingers. They are always fed in-tank and not handled often. Once out of the tank, they become very docile and easy to handle.
I think a lot of this is due to the individual personalities, so I wouldn't say that rule applies to every snake, but I really think it does apply to some extent just based on Hebbian principle; even flatworms can learn to associate a stimulus with a conditioned response. Theirs seems to be that when the tank opens, what comes in is food.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

It's definitely a feeding response (Is that considered a form of aggression? It was in my neuro courses.) not fear.

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I don't consider a feeding response aggression towards the keeper. That's the difference I'm getting at.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

My BP has a history of getting aggressive around food and towards hands reaching into her home. I could see the potential for her to get very snippy and tank-aggressive if she weren't used to hands coming in there and messing with her.

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Is it possible that someone misinterpreted a feeding response for aggression and then they themselves were hesitant to feed your snake in its previous home? From experience, this can lead to a snake with a good feeding response that is regularly hungry due to a nervous owner. Not the best combination when trying to build a relationship between keeper and snake... I've seen this be quickly "tamed" by experienced keepers and a regular, appropriate, feeding schedule (not sure tamed is the right word, as a snake with a strong feeding response is an amazing thing).

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

Is there evidence one way or the other, like a study or something, or is it mostly anecdotal?

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You'd be hard pressed to find any scientific evidence. After all, we're talking about ball pythons here - who's putting up research money for very many behavior studies on these guys? The move-related issues are real though, and so are the bites that can come from being in feed mode (albeit at different levels for different animals). Similarly, the misinterpretation of feeding response for aggression towards the keeper also happens (more so with newer hobbiests).

When it comes down to it, I always recommend simplification and that's what feeding in their own enclosure does. If my snakes are well fed and happy in their homes, who am I to mess with that?

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Originally Posted by Foolish1

Wasn't my snake but it happens evidence is something hard to come up with for situations like this.

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Responses like this are pretty standard when I ask that question. More often than not it's someone else's snake that is said to be aggressive.

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

Husbandry was/is spot on. I've been working with that genus since I was 12 and active in the hobbyist community for years, so I supervised the setup and husbandry. Feeding is every 5-7 days depending on when they last took food, and they were eating pinkies, which look a lot like human fingers. They are always fed in-tank and not handled often. Once out of the tank, they become very docile and easy to handle.

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Are you referring to garters being housed together here? If so, it's a different ball game (ha ha) than talking about singly-housed ball pythons. I'm sure you know this - I'm just pointing it out for clarification.

First off I swear I'm not stalking this thread, there just happens to be a new post whenever I take a break :cool:

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

I don't consider a feeding response aggression towards the keeper. That's the difference I'm getting at.
Is it possible that someone misinterpreted a feeding response for aggression and then they themselves were hesitant to feed your snake in its previous home? From experience, this can lead to a snake with a good feeding response that is regularly hungry due to a nervous owner. Not the best combination when trying to build a relationship between keeper and snake... I've seen this be quickly "tamed" by experienced keepers and a regular, appropriate, feeding schedule (not sure tamed is the right word, as a snake with a strong feeding response is an amazing thing).
You'd be hard pressed to find any scientific evidence. After all, we're talking about ball pythons here - who's putting up research money for very many behavior studies on these guys? The move-related issues are real though, and so are the bites that can come from being in feed mode (albeit at different levels for different animals). Similarly, the misinterpretation of feeding response for aggression towards the keeper also happens (more so with newer hobbiests).

When it comes down to it, I always recommend simplification and that's what feeding in their own enclosure does. If my snakes are well fed and happy in their homes, who am I to mess with that?

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I was considering the feeding response to fall under 'aggression' just because prey drive was often referred to as a form of aggression (albeit not social aggression) in neuro/psych papers I've read. Only realized it sounded different once you said that. But no, none of my snakes actually display aggression in the sense that they're mad at me. Same goes for my parents' snakes that I mentioned.

As for having a nervous keeper, she was put up for adoption by pet store employees who were frightened of her, so that may very well be where that started; and she was just a baby at that point. She's pretty mellow other than the food, so it probably won't take long for her to get used to a new feeding routine. I've really just been continuing in the way she was being fed before without really thinking about it since it seemed to work, but I'm going to try in-tank next time.

btw, this has been a very informative discussion!

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Originally Posted by DVirginiana

...by pet store employees... I've really just been continuing in the way she was being fed before without really thinking about it...

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Therein lies a big reason feeding in a separate enclosure continues to be a thing. Pet stores feed in separate enclosures for completely different (and very valid) reasons because a pet store is a completely different environment than a home. When new keepers ask about feeding, pet store employees unfamiliar with the species just tell them what they're used to doing in the store since that's all the experience they typically have (through no fault of their own). The method seems logical and they have the credibility of working in a pet store, so people typically accept it as gospel and go on their way. In reality, they likely just took care advice from a teenager who thought it would be cool to work in a pet store part time who also hasn't been educated well enough to know any different. Yes, there are a lot of incredibly knowledgeable pet store employees. They are not, however, in the majority.

Do your own research and make informed decisions for yourself - especially when it comes to the care of an animal that will rely on you for everything. :)

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Yes, there are a lot of incredibly knowledgeable pet store employees. They are not, however, in the majority.

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I just re-read this and realized it sounded like I'm throwing a lot of pet store employees under the bus. I'm not. I'm refering only to knowledge regarding this hobby, which isn't commonplace in the retail pet industry.

We handle ours from day 1 also. We feed every Friday and most new snakes have not had an issue with eating even when flying in from California (I'm in Fl.) the day before. We also feed in the enclosure. I couldn't imagine moving 19 BP's back and forth just so they could eat. Not to mention buying additional bins to hold them while they eat...

We handle ours from day 1. They seem to enjoy it and come to the front of their tubs when we come in. We also feed Saturday evening. So if we got them Saturday at lunch time we offer them food Sat evening, if we got them monday they wait to Saturday. It seems to work for us.


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