The Age Old Question

Yet another thread about whether to feed inside their home enclosure or use a secondary one. I am not looking to start arguments; I really want to hear the pros and cons opinions from both sides. In case any of this info is pertinent: Kaa is a pastel, weight unknown atm but about 15 inches, unsure of sex, low traffic room that only I go in, only f/t are available in my area, I plan to handle him as opposed to having him as strictly a show snake. If any more info is needed just let me know.

My concerns with feeding in the home enclosure:
1)I want to grow Kaa to be the type of snake I can handle regularly (within reason) and I've heard feeding this way causes them to confuse handling with feeding and creates snapping responses for them
2)I use substrate and have heard that feeding f/t to them while on substrate can pose a risk of them swallowing it, leading to impaction or rupture of the bowels.

My concerns with using a separate enclosure:
1) Less convenient as it requires a secondary setup with it's own heat, hides, and bedding (small concern but i'm listing it anyway)
2) I would think that being moved to a less familiar enclosure would cause stress and could potentially contribute to poor feeding or denying feeds altogether (partly my thinking to why Kaa hasn't fed the last two times)

Again I have seen this Hatfield and McCoy dispute since the first time I read up on keeping snakes; I'm not really looking for a one is better the other shouldn't be considered, and I know each snake and handler's situation are unique, I'd just like to hear everyone's experience and suggestions so I can figure out what my desired situation would best require.

TL;DR take the poll and post your thoughts on your choice.

I always feed my bp's in their enclosures and never have had a problem with handling on or off feed days. As for feeding them is another tub there is no reason to have heat, hides or bedding as they are not going to be housed in it; only to feed then back to their normal enclosure.

Snake substrate is typically okay for them to ingest a bit if it sticks to the mouse. Look at wild snakes, they no doubt ingest all kinds of things while they eat. Dry the mouse off the best you can and take out the water to avoid re-wetting and sticking shouldn't be a problem. If you're especially worried lots of people just throw a paper towel or newspaper square down before feeding and take it out later.

It will not invoke aggression, especially if you feed with a tongs. They will have no reason to associate your hands with food. Just wash your hands before and after feeding so you don't smell like mouse! It's a common myth that tank feeding causes cage aggression, especially if you are feeding correctly (i.e. don't offer food with your fingers).

Feeding out of the enclosure can be stressful. New environment, it's generally not warm, they don't like to be handled after eating. It can definitely lead to food refusal. I don't see a reason to move them, the snake is more likely to eat where they're comfortable. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JPerkins

I always feed my bp's in their enclosures and never have had a problem with handling on or off feed days. As for feeding them is another tub there is no reason to have heat, hides or bedding as they are not going to be housed in it; only to feed then back to their normal enclosure.

---

I thought similarly; I had just heard that they would be too uncomfortable to eat if they suddenly got moved to a colder environment with no secure hides.

For the record everyone: my eventual plan is to have both a custom built vivarium for him to live in as well as a second custom feeding enclosure, both fully heated, furnished, and monitored for temps and humidity. I like DIY projects

When I've fed in a separate enclosure, with f/t it's usually a plastic tub. The snake is in there long enough to strike, eat, then about 10 min later i transfer her back to her tank. Since the tub is in use for at most an hour a week (usually 20min) i see no need for other heating stuff. The snake isn't in there long enough for it to be a concern.

That said I did do an in home feed experiment this past sun. One snake refused to eat, the other virtually inhaled the mouse. I didn't see any issues with the aspen sticking to mr mousy but it was a lot easier than risking a nip from a snake with a full tummy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spoons

Snake substrate is typically okay for them to ingest a bit if it sticks to the mouse. Look at wild snakes, they no doubt ingest all kinds of things while they eat.... lots of people just throw a paper towel or newspaper square down before feeding and take it out later.

---

You are the first person to suggest throwing down a piece of paper temporarily. I have honestly never heard that before but it makes so much sense. I mean he shouldn't roam around with it too much with it being f/t so I shouldn't have to worry about him taking it off the paper, and I can just toss it once he goes back into his hide. That sounds very simple.

Honestly curious if I could add you as a buddy or whatever on here, you've posted in a lot of the same threads and you always seem to have very beneficial information.

@BPSnakeLady:
When I had my Banded California King, I used the little plastic carriers you take them home in to feed her and she was perfect: quick strike, swallow and back in her home in like half an hour. But with BP's I keep hearing that they do not like huge changes in their situation when feeding such as loss of heat and hides. I've also heard they need hours to calm down after ingesting as opposed to minutes like smaller breeds. So it's nice to actually hear that BP's can also successfully feed with moving them to a very temporary little container just to eat. To me it seems to make the most sense, but as I said I've heard so many things from both sides.

Is there a buddy system on this forum? If so sure :D

I'm pretty new to all of this myself (I kept snakes when I was young, new to balls) but I've been stalking this forum for quite a while and soaking in everything I can. I've done enough reading in the past few weeks to equal a novel at least!

As a side note, I was a bit worried because my ball DID ingest some substrate and mystery moss that came with his tank when I fed him (I dried the mouse and he managed to drag it into the water dish, which is why I recommend taking it out... haha. Shouldn't be a problem with the larger tank, before the water was crowded near his hide). I was worried about him passing it but discovered quite the log in the tank today. So, it must not have been an issue.

You say you want a custom built feeding tank - but it sounds just like a regular tank? Why go through all of that? He'll be in there all of a half hour per week, and if it's so similar to the regular tank you might as well leave him in the regular tank. :)

I just remember seeing something on the profile page about buddies, I'm assuming some sort of friend system so it's easier to follow people with similar interests.

And the tank wouldn't be out of necessity really. I just really like the idea of building one. It would just be for the fun of making a one of a kind enclosure for him.

I think it may depend on the snake and the routines they get used to. Before I found this place I hadn't even considered feeding in the tanks and so feeding day they were in the tubs. As long as it is dim and quiet they'd eat. That is the only routing they knew. I may keep feeding Livia in a tub as she seemed to be confused when I tried feeding her in her tank. Li on the other hand didnt seem to care.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BPSnakeLady

I think it may depend on the snake and the routines they get used to. Before I found this place I hadn't even considered feeding in the tanks and so feeding day they were in the tubs. As long as it is dim and quiet they'd eat. That is the only routing they knew. I may keep feeding Livia in a tub as she seemed to be confused when I tried feeding her in her tank. Li on the other hand didnt seem to care.

---

It's still amazing to me how, with this much diversity in their personalities, they are still so widely dismissed as legitimate pets that require just as much if not more attention than a dog or cat. Glad to hear that all of yours have their own systems down :) Hopefully Kaa and I can get on the same page soon once I get his house comfy for him.

I did tend to always have better luck with live, but no shop within an hour of my city sells live any younger than full grown furries. And Kaa just isn't there yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karokash

I thought similarly; I had just heard that they would be too uncomfortable to eat if they suddenly got moved to a colder environment with no secure hides.

For the record everyone: my eventual plan is to have both a custom built vivarium for him to live in as well as a second custom feeding enclosure, both fully heated, furnished, and monitored for temps and humidity. I like DIY projects

---

If you handle it immediately before feeding (to move into different enclosure) it will associate being handled with feeding, so I don't see why this is considered a good idea.

There are no benefits to feeding in a separate container.
....the only time I can see any reason for it is if you have a problem feeder and your trying different avenues to make them eat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karokash

My concerns with feeding in the home enclosure:
1)I want to grow Kaa to be the type of snake I can handle regularly (within reason) and I've heard feeding this way causes them to confuse handling with feeding and creates snapping responses for them
2)I use substrate and have heard that feeding f/t to them while on substrate can pose a risk of them swallowing it, leading to impaction or rupture of the bowels.

---

Both of those are non-issues.

If the first was true (which it's not) and feeding your snake in his enclosure teaches him to be snappy, what's the inevitable outcome of teaching him that being picked up leads to food?

Ball Pythons have been ingesting bits of wood, dirt, mud, and small rocks for tens of millions of years before humans ever existed. Your snake is well designed to deal with a little bedding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karokash

a second custom feeding enclosure, both fully heated, furnished, and monitored for temps and humidity.

---

You'd be better off using this enclosure for a second snake.

So far I have been feeding Atticus in a separate container - cardboard box with a lid, and he has been eating very consistently. The reason I do this is because he sometimes creates a bloody mess when he eats, and it's easier to throw away a cardboard box than to change out substrate. It's also a good time for me to spot clean, change water, etc. Someone pointed out that my strategy may become more inconvenient as he gets bigger, but I will keep using the feeding box until that happens.

Feed in the enclosure. There is no debate among those in the know....Every single breeder that I know feeds in the enclosure/tubs. No need to overthink this one.

Feeding in enclosure is the way to go. I've never had luck with feeding in a seperate enclosure. Generally when someone refers to feeding in a seperate enclosure, they are talking about a very temporary enclosure with no bedding that the snake is in solely for the purpose of eating. They are then transported back to their normal enclosure.

Pros:
-can't ingest any substrate
-sometime picky eaters will eat in a new, clean environment.

Cons:
-changing enclosures can stress a snake out; therfore it won't eat.
-snake smells food already when you move it to/from enclosure, increases chance of being bitten.
-you can leave a f/t food item in for extended periods of time without worrying about potential snake escape or wrong temps/humidity

I also find that snakes in their own enclosure are already in a comfortable and relaxed position, ready to eat whenever. However, when you move them, they need to get adjusted and in proper position for food. Just my experience.

Let me actually say something...in 25 years I have never switched any snakes in my care to a separate enclosure for feeding. In all that time I have had exactly one snake that would be "after it" as soon as I opened the cage to the point that it was an issue, which was a Coastal Carpet Python (I've had other Carpet Pythons, no trouble.)

With the GTPs, if you feed at night they way they react is correct and expected.

I am curious if anybody that has been keeping snakes for a bit has had issues with multiple snakes striking out as soon as you open the enclosure?

I prefer to feed in another container as well. Like you said, its easier to clean the tank when he is out of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ransack

I am curious if anybody that has been keeping snakes for a bit has had issues with multiple snakes striking out as soon as you open the enclosure?

---

While most of the time when my BP's are ready to eat they are under their hides with just their head and a little bit of neck sticking out, if they are really hungry and ready to eat, they do a good imitation of a viper. I need to get that on video sometime.

That said, I don't breed my own feeders and I primarily feed f/t, so the only time my snakes smell food is on feeding day. I also thaw the feeders in the herp room to pre-scent it, so they know if the tub gets opened they're getting fed.

Thank you all for the input. Tomorrow is feeding day so I am going to attempt again but this time will be in his enclosure. Hopefully he will go for it this time.

Other then putting the ball pythons off by moving them to a new container, it doesnt really matter whether you feed inside or outside the cage. Heres why....

There is no "good" reason to feed them outside the cage.

Feeding outside the cage is actually much much more dangerous for you then feeding inside the cage. This is amplified when we are talking about large constrictors such as burmese and reticulated pythons. Moving a large hungry constrictor to a feeding container, allowing it to eat, and then moving it back all with your big hot meat hunks is a super super bad idea and a good way to end up in the ER from bite lacerations.

That said, ball pythons are puny and dont inflict much damage but still all the same risks are taken for getting bit by removing them from the enclosure.

I'm going to feed him in his enclosure tomrrow, I feel like he's losing weight but I will be picking up a scale so I can start monitoring his weight. He is still having a shedding problem so i'm hoping that doesn't keep him from eating because he looks pretty skinny and wrinkly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bcr229

While most of the time when my BP's are ready to eat they are under their hides with just their head and a little bit of neck sticking out

---

That's exactly what my new baby bp did yesterday and the day before! I waited 5 days after receiving him, even though the breeder fed him a week prior. We fed him for the first time yesterday and he took. Which was a big thing to me since the breeders were feeding him live and we fed frozen/thawed. Didn't think he was gonna take it, but after a minute or 2 of jiggling the fuzzy around he struck it. I was so thrilled lol :D and this was after we even handled him for about 30 mins to an hour for the next 2-3 days. We left him alone for 2 days before feeding just to be sure though.

But to go with the thread, we fed him inside the cage. I took the hide he was under out of the cage to make more room, and put a piece of paper towel down over the aspen to prevent the ingestion thing. I've read that as well, and didn't want to bother him too much by moving him around to a different container to feed and then moving him afterwards, as I was afraid of regurgitation for it was his first meal with us. He still hasn't struck at me since we got him, not even when we first took him out of the container he was shipped in. Started exploring as soon as we took him out, didn't even ball up on us :) But he did a little when I took the hide up a few times and was a little shy, but came out of it when we started messing with him.

I keep hearing the paper towel/newspaper thing now since It was first mentioned. I cannot believe I never thought of that. So that is what's going to happen tomorrow. I am still trying to decide if I am going to do the last half of the thawing on a paper towel on the lid of his cage to get him hungry before. I've heard it helps ensure a strike. Thoughts?

I don't have a heat lamp on my enclosure yet (am getting one in a few days though because I feel the ambient temps are a little too low when it's cold weather out, so I will probably be testing out that strategy as well), but I thawed out the fuzzy in the fridge for about 5 or 6 hours, and then before feeding, I put in in a bowl of hot (not boiling) water (with it still in it's individually sealed packaging). He took it without too much of a problem. Haven't had another feeding besides this one, so I can't comment on the frequency this will occur. But hopefully this will be all he needs. Hope this helps some

I'll admit...I've gone both ways. My boy will only eat live, so I started feeding him in a plastic tub and then transferring him back to his cage to mellow out and digest. He didn't seem to mind at all...never regurgitation or anything. One feeding day I had WAY too many rats and I was going to clean both cages simultaneously so the rats ended up in the feeding tub..just threw one in his cage and striked right away and seemed to have an easier time. Been feeding that way since...if he ever shows signs of cage aggression I'll switch back but this is working for us now =) PS he's just on paper towel as substrate so not worried about injesting that =)

It has been a while here for me.

Feeding outside of the cage as stated by others really does nothing good. not just with BP but with all snakes. taking them out of their comfort/safety zone is more likely to lead to them refusing, or regurgitating their food. BP's like the safety and security of their enclosures. Most snakes will, when stressed or in fear rather regurge their food then take the chance of being attacked, (in the wild), because they are in a vulnerable state. the whole process takes a large amount of energy for them to accomplish. While a lot adjust and are ok with it. overall there is no "Benefit" in doing so.

as stated prior the chances of them getting accustomed to handling then food could lead to more aggressive behavior that your not wanting to deal with. What i actually do is a few hours before feeding is, i remove all their water bowls, do any spot cleaning as needed, (i use Newspaper so i can 100% tell if there has been anything messy done), i do not feed them with in dirty conditions, and "In the Wild" once they make a mess they move to a different location. then i get my rodents thawed, they are all active and on the hunt for food at this time for me. i feed them, then after cleaning the bowls i put them back in. generally they calm down and realize no more food is being offered.

Good Luck to you with what you decide to do.

I think me and my boyfriend have tried this before. Feeding his snake separately like in a box or something along those lines. We stopped because I don't think she fed any better like that. After that I haven't ever tried taking them out of their enclosures. I just feel like I don't like it when someone bothers me when I'm hungry. So I leave them alone.


Sent from iPhone 5 using tapatalk :)

Thanks for the suggestion about removing the water bowls. Tonight is his feeding night. Fingers crossed, super nervous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karokash

Thanks for the suggestion about removing the water bowls. Tonight is his feeding night. Fingers crossed, super nervous.

---

I have been doing it that way for over 3 years now, it took a while, but i notice it now, the association of it being removed and their hunting activity. may or may not work for you, especially at first, but i will assume in time it will start to show.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karokash

Yet another thread about whether to feed inside their home enclosure or use a secondary one. I am not looking to start arguments; I really want to hear the pros and cons opinions from both sides. In case any of this info is pertinent: Kaa is a pastel, weight unknown atm but about 15 inches, unsure of sex, low traffic room that only I go in, only f/t are available in my area, I plan to handle him as opposed to having him as strictly a show snake. If any more info is needed just let me know.

My concerns with feeding in the home enclosure:
1)I want to grow Kaa to be the type of snake I can handle regularly (within reason) and I've heard feeding this way causes them to confuse handling with feeding and creates snapping responses for them
2)I use substrate and have heard that feeding f/t to them while on substrate can pose a risk of them swallowing it, leading to impaction or rupture of the bowels.

My concerns with using a separate enclosure:
1) Less convenient as it requires a secondary setup with it's own heat, hides, and bedding (small concern but i'm listing it anyway)
2) I would think that being moved to a less familiar enclosure would cause stress and could potentially contribute to poor feeding or denying feeds altogether (partly my thinking to why Kaa hasn't fed the last two times)

Again I have seen this Hatfield and McCoy dispute since the first time I read up on keeping snakes; I'm not really looking for a one is better the other shouldn't be considered, and I know each snake and handler's situation are unique, I'd just like to hear everyone's experience and suggestions so I can figure out what my desired situation would best require.

TL;DR take the poll and post your thoughts on your choice.

---

It may be an age old question, but it's been answered....right?

Handling is dependent on several factors - some of which you control, some of which you don't. You can control the amount of time you spend positively interacting with your animal, which can increase it's tractability.

However you cannot control it's personality. Some animals have sharper temperaments. Not much you can do with a snake in this regards.

One thing that will not occur - your snake will not be more prone to biting if you feed it in it's enclosure. Anyone who tells you otherwise is blowing smoke up your rear.

As for the substrate issue - again, ask one of the experts who mouths off about substrate impactions if they've ever experienced one in their collection firsthand. 98% of those will say "nope" You are done with them.

2% will say yes. Most of these are flat out lying. You can weed these liars out by asking them if a necropsy was performed.

I have not run across one person in 30 odd years in this hobby that has lost a snake that has ingested wood substrate. I've talked to people that THINK that's what a death in their collection has been attributed to.........but they never confirmed it via necropsy, and oftentimes severe bloating in snakes (which looks like a blockage to the uninformed) is one of several other very common ailments.

I have fed, bred and raised God knows how many snakes on PINE substrate. I've seen them swallow whole mouthfuls of wood without incident. I've talked to vets who see impactions in small, neonate snakes that are fed on SAND, but not wood.

On the whole, the health and behavioral concerns with feeding in the main enclosure are unwarranted and misleading. They are internet BS that has been spread forum to forum by people who gain experience by reading instead of by doing.

On the other hand, the risks associated with feeding in separate tubs/enclosures are real and true. The snake is put under more stress, as feeding time now involves two handling sessions/moves. The first runs the risk of putting an animal off of feed. The second puts it at risk for a regurge.

Additionally, the keeper elevates the chance of being bit by handling a snake soon after feeding. Many animals stay on "point" for much longer than anticipated.

If/when you move on to bigger and more aggressive species, the notion of using a separate feed tub becomes laughable. Drys will get sharp as soon as they smell food, and the process of moving can elicit a lacerating bite. Drys will stay on point much longer, and a post consumption move will also elicit a lacerating bite.

No, there are no good reasons - better yet, no reasons which have a solid foundation in logic - which necessitate feeding in a separate enclosure.

Well my mind is pretty much made up. It was just interesting to hear both sides. He'll be being fed pretty soon. Finger's crossed.

I'm new, but I tried feeding in a separate enclosure and Marshall wouldn't eat because there was not a warm dark spot for him to digest after. He eats in his enclosure now and I can handle him just fine:)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

No option for both so I picked the one I do most - inside enclosure. It all comes down to what's convenient for me though. My hogs, for instance, get fed twice a week and they poop at least that many times. It's easier for me to just flip them into another tub to feed while I sift through their bedding for waste.

I always feed in the enclosures. For a BP I wouldn't worry too much if you get tagged. Now for something like my 5ft Red tail boa who isn't even full grown yet, getting tagged by her would not be fun. Even worse if it is something like a 14ft retic or burm. There is no advantage to feeding in a separate enclosure. Some say the rat will pee/poo in the cage, my answer is "why the hell are you feeding live rats to a snake to begin with?" You are playing Russian roulette and one day your snake will lose and you will either have a dead snake or one hell of a vet bill. Some say the snake will eat substrate. They wont ingest enough to hurt unless its a really small baby and you got them on something like walnut shells or some other really big chunky substrate. I mean in the wild they don't get food served on a nice clean plate, it wont hurt them. They will get conditioned to whenever the cage is opened, they will go into feed mode. If it actually got that bad, then you don't need a snake because it means you are pretty much ignoring it. My red tail boa comes out at least once every day mostly because she goes crazy and tears up her cage in the morning until I open the door and then she crawls out onto me and I let her wander around for about an hour. Then back in she goes and she is happy and curls up content. My little high white pied girl is still kind of new so she only gets out once a day till she is used to me more. So to sum it up, again there is no advantage to feeding in a separate enclosure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sauzo

Some say the rat will pee/poo in the cage, my answer is "why the hell are you feeding live rats to a snake to begin with?" You are playing Russian roulette and one day your snake will lose and you will either have a dead snake or one hell of a vet bill.

---

Not the thread for this topic, but you are giving ridiculously bad information here. It is perfectly fine to feed live prey to our pets (as long as you are a responsible keeper).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Not the thread for this topic, but you are giving ridiculously bad information here. It is perfectly fine to feed live prey to our pets (as long as you are a responsible keeper).

---

I would not say its ridiculous. Have you ever seen what a small to medium rat can do to a snake that grabs it by say the butt end and rat manages to spin around and bite? Its horrible. I have never had it happen to any of my snakes or monitors as I always pre kill my rats before feeding but I have heard and see pictures of the horror stories. Like I said, sure you might not see it for months or years but it only takes 1 time to change your mind. I personally would rather not even chance it and like I said, I pre kill for my reptiles safety. Again to each their own but go google rat bites on snakes and see for yourself or you can try it yourself. Grab a rat in your hand and squeeze it and see how big of bite it takes out of your hand. Not some little weanling or fuzzy but a small to large rat. I'm actually rather surprised you would advocate feeding live to begin with as 90% of the snakes owners I've talked to either feed F/T or pre killed because of the statement I've stated above. And yes I know some people will put a pencil or chopstick or something else in the rats mouth to keep it from biting once the snake grabs it and others will pin the head etc but again, why go through all that when you can just pre kill it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sauzo

I would not say its ridiculous. Have you ever seen what a small to medium rat can do to a snake that grabs it by say the butt end and rat manages to spin around and bite? Its horrible. I have never had it happen to any of my snakes or monitors as I always pre kill my rats before feeding but I have heard and see pictures of the horror stories. Like I said, sure you might not see it for months or years but it only takes 1 time to change your mind. I personally would rather not even chance it and like I said, I pre kill for my reptiles safety. Again to each their own but go google rat bites on snakes and see for yourself or you can try it yourself. Grab a rat in your hand and squeeze it and see how big of bite it takes out of your hand. Not some little weanling or fuzzy but a small to large rat. I'm actually rather surprised you would advocate feeding live to begin with as 90% of the snakes owners I've talked to either feed F/T or pre killed because of the statement I've stated above.

---

While your point is fully relevant AMD makes perfect sense, the rats that bite are the ones that are hungry and left unattended. I always (I don't mean go sound like a monster) watch my snake kill the rat. I usually feed f/t but sometimes they just won't take it. If the snake grabs the rat by the rear end, take something metal or solid and give the rat something to bite on while it's being suffocated. That sounds bad in text, but it really works. It's not my favorite way, but I'd rather have my snake eat and do so safely. Do not EVER leave a live rat that has it's eyes open unattended in a snake cage. EVER.

Saying feeding live is always dangerous is like saying using a UTH is always dangerous. Both of those things can cause problems, but the risk is minimized to almost zero when someone does it correctly. If you monitor the feeding it's difficult for a rodent to injure the snake and darn near impossible for the rodent to kill the snake. Snakes are built to eat live prey after all. I fully respect the decision to feed pre-killed or f/t (which can be fatal if done improperly too; search for what happens when someone doesn't thaw the rat all the way) but saying it's irresponsible and dangerous to feed live is inaccurate and unfair, especially when some snakes will only take live.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sammiebob

If the snake grabs the rat by the rear end, take something metal or solid and give the rat something to bite on while it's being suffocated. That sounds bad in text, but it really works. It's not my favorite way, but I'd rather have my snake eat and do so safely. Do not EVER leave a live rat that has it's eyes open unattended in a snake cage. EVER.

---

That's what I do too :)

Oh I agree Sammie, I watch all my snakes and my monitors eat even their pre killed as I don't want any surprises and for my snakes, I keep them all on aspen so I have to pick off pieces as they are eating(yes I know not the best idea but that's a different post). And yeah Ive seen people use pencils, chopsticks, little dowels and stuff to pin a rats head if the snake grabs wrong. And yes I agree 100% to never leave a rat in the cage. When i used to feed my bearded dragon crickets before i started my dubia colony, i used to have to hunt down usually the 1 loose cricket and if i couldn't find it i would have to leave veggies overnight for the cricket and put my bearded dragon up on her hammock to sleep to avoid the cricket from biting the dragon. My point really was why bother taking that chance with a live rat as i have yet to see a snake that eventually wont take a pre killed or f/t doing the zombie dance method. Its just a risk that can be avoided all together.

I disagree though that the only rats that bite are hungry or unattended. Just last week, i was feeding my little girl and she gets rat pups which i do feed live since they cant do damage. Well i dropped it in and scooted it over by her hide box and she came out like greased lightning and grabbed it. Well she grabbed it by the ass and wrapped it up. Luckily it was small and couldn't hurt but if it was a medium rat and her 1 coil was about 1/2 down from the neck, that rat could have bit her. I mean like i said, an old herp guy i was talking to told me this, "If you don't think a rat can do damage to a snake, grab a rat in your hand and squeeze it slowly and see what happens. That rat will bite the bejebus out of your thumb or index finger as it is fighting for its life"

I'm not trying to preach don't feed live rodents. I'm just trying to give a heads up to newer people or people unfamiliar with what a live rat that is fighting for its life can do. Anyways, I'm not here to derail this thread so this is the last i'll talk about this topic. Best of luck whichever way you decide to feed :)

Very true Virginia about snakes being equipped to kill live prey and you can see some of the battle scars some of the big Anacondas and pythons have on them to show for it. Thing is wild animals immune systems are much stronger than a captive bred animals as our "pets" aren't exposed to all the germs of the wild so some captive bred animal with a slight weaker immune system will do fine in captivity, in the wild that same animal might not do well. But that's kind of a different topic haha.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sauzo

I'm not trying to preach don't feed live rodents. I'm just trying to give a heads up to newer people or people unfamiliar with what a live rat that is fighting for its life can do. Anyways, I'm not here to derail this thread so this is the last i'll talk about this topic. Best of luck to whichever way you decide to feed :)

---

Wish this had been posted before I replied :P. I agree with that sentiment. I didn't even realize the thread wasn't about this as I kind of came in on the second half of it!

Even the live hopper I gave to Marshall yesterday, that thing was aggressive!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Lol i hate mice. They seem much more prone to biting than rats. I don't know how many times I've reached into critter keepers to fish out mice for euthanizing and gotten bit. And for little guys, their bite hurts. Rats are much more calm.

I feed outside of my enclourse in a small, clear tub.

I feed live and will hold/wedge the mouse by the tail. I use to set the mouse in by his tail and close the lid but I had a pack of seriously insane white mice and one of them wigged out when I put him in there. Ulfric landed his bite like a champ ofcourse, but oh the suspense... not the kind I like with my little buddy's well being on the line.

When he moves to full grown rat, I will raise live and sever the spinal cord via the neck and tail method before tossing him in for Ulfric.

The reason I first started was because I read of the worries of food aggresion. Honestly, I wouldn't be worried about even the meanest BP. If you don't smell like food you wont get bit.

I hate it when he messes his cage up anyways :) It's also a great time to clean his enclosure whilie hes in the tub. Too each their own, I don't think either method is bad. Everything has pros and cons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sauzo

You are playing Russian roulette and one day your snake will lose and you will either have a dead snake or one hell of a vet bill.

---

My reptile passion was handed down from my dad, we always fed live. My entire childhood observing snake feedings, always live. We're talking thousands of offerings - no dead snakes. Snakes would occasionally take a bite but any damage incurred was always superficial. I remember asking my dad, "what if the rat kills the snake" and him answering simply, "we'll keep the rat". Now I know he was joking and not worried about losing a snake. We sure went through a heap of rodents without ever finding that champion to keep as a pet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sauzo

Again to each their own but go google rat bites on snakes and see for yourself or you can try it yourself.

---

Those pictures you're looking at are not feeding time/retaliatory bites. They are damage caused by leaving a hungry rodent unattended with a snake for an extended period of time. Eventually the rodent is going to take a test nibble on the snake. If the snake recoils the rodent gains confidence and continues gnawing away. This is why responsible owners don't leave live rodents with their snakes unattended. It's not because the rodent is going you do all kinds of horrible damage to a snake that's in feeding mode - that's not the risk. The only time all this horrible damage is going to occur is when the snake is in defensive mode and you toss a hungry rodent in with them then walk away like an idiot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sauzo

Grab a rat in your hand and squeeze it and see how big of bite it takes out of your hand.

---

Punch yourself in the stomach. Now flex your abs and punch yourself in the stomach again. Get it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sauzo

I'm actually rather surprised you would advocate feeding live to begin with as 90% of the snakes owners I've talked to either feed F/T or pre killed because of the statement I've stated above.

---

Names, or it didn't happen. Not about feeding f/t, but the reasons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sauzo

They will get conditioned to whenever the cage is opened, they will go into feed mode. If it actually got that bad, then you don't need a snake because it means you are pretty much ignoring it.

---

One could argue that a snake who's conditioned in this way is "happier" than the one you're constantly harassing. I'm not saying handling or taming snakes is a bad thing. I'm just saying it's absurd to state the opposite is a sign of a poor keeper. I have snakes I only handle during maintenance and I have snakes I handle a bit more often. I enjoy them all though - some through interaction but all through plain old observation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sauzo

My point really was why bother taking that chance with a live rat as i have yet to see a snake that eventually wont take a pre killed or f/t doing the zombie dance method. Its just a risk that can be avoided all together.

---

I'm thinking you just haven't seen that many snakes to make the above statement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sauzo

I'm not trying to preach don't feed live rodents.

---

Oh, but you are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sauzo

Anyways, I'm not here to derail this thread

---

Oh, but you have and I'm the sucker who couldn't resist commenting on a couple of your comments.

Some observations I've made over the years in regards to live feeding you may find useful. Some snakes will start feeding without dispatching their food first. This is typically seen during the consumption of helpless prey such as pinkies, fuzzies, chicks but not always. As soon as a snake takes any sort of damage while feeding, be it claw or tooth or beak, they typically go into kill mode. Depending on the species this usually equates to slamming the prey into the side of the enclosure a couple times to stun it before continuing or pinning/wrapping up for constriction. Now, what happens when an already wrapped snake starts taking damage? They immediately tighten/tense up(remember your stomach exercise?) and throw more coils. The tensing alone is usually enough to prevent any damage from getting beyond skin deep though.

my animals are fed in their enclosure I feed f/t and their bedding is cypress mulch . I have not seen any issues with them, and they have never tried to bite me. if you are concerned with the thawing of the rodents being too wet, put them in a plastic sandwich bag to keep them dry

Somebody posted that it is NOT just the hungry rats that bite. In my experience I have found that to be true on numerous occasions.

Sometimes my :snake: won't take the rat. Thus, I'm forced to cage it. I feed and water it well. I then offer the rat up again in a few days. Many times these well fed rats have offensively attacked my snake.
Needless to say I immediately grabbed the rat!

This is why I now feed by hand, while the rat is trying to bite me.:O

Which reminds me, I'm getting off here now to get on EBay to buy some long hemostats. The long tongs won't hold the rats.