Snake twisting around/shaky, IBD?

Hello,

I am considering adopting a snake that twists/is shaky when head is up in the air. It is a younger snake, but shows no other symptoms other than the neurological issues. It eats very well and has no respiratory issues. I am obviously concerned from my research about IBD.

If there are no other issues than the twisting/shakiness is it likely to be IBD? Obviously if it is I am going to let the snake get put down, but it if is not I am highly considering adopting it. Thoughts?

Well, before we jump to any conclusions about IBD, is your snake a spider morph at all? Spiders can have a wobble and what is called corkscrewing.

On the snakes chart it is listed as a pastel pied. I don't believe it is a spider morph, but I can check.

I second that, look up ball python wobble on youtube or spider morph wobble and see if that is what you are seeing. Spider is bred into a few different morphs but these snakes do not seem negatively affected by it at all. I would also look up/read about IBD for comparison but my understanding is that IBD is quite rare. It does happen but I want to say it is less likely in captive bred than captive hatched. Always try to buy from a reputable breeder rather than a pet store as the pet stores often import their snakes. Wild bred/captive hatched snakes are much more prone to things like feeding issues and certain illnesses. If the snake is from a breeder you could always ask about the genetics to see if the spider gene is in it at all, they should be happy to tell you. :)

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Originally Posted by mtag

Hello,

I am considering adopting a snake that twists/is shaky when head is up in the air. It is a younger snake, but shows no other symptoms other than the neurological issues. It eats very well and has no respiratory issues. I am obviously concerned from my research about IBD.

If there are no other issues than the twisting/shakiness is it likely to be IBD? Obviously if it is I am going to let the snake get put down, but it if is not I am highly considering adopting it. Thoughts?

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There are literally countless things that can present with neuro issues - viruses, bacterial infections, heat related issues, chemical exposure, etc. etc.

I would not recommend adopting an animal that is showing neurological issues. I would not recommend adopting an animal where an aesthetic mutation causes a neurological issue.

The situation is that I work at a vet clinic, the snake is from a pet store. Obviously we can't really test much for IBD as the snake is alive, eats, and otherwise is healthy. I just don't want him getting put down as the pet store can't sell the snake as it has obvious issues.

I was planning on purchasing a snake from a breeder in a few years, but I don't want this one put down if it could possibly be something that isn't fatal. It obviously isn't the most ideal situation but I want to give it a chance if I can.

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Originally Posted by mtag

The situation is that I work at a vet clinic, the snake is from a pet store. Obviously we can't really test much for IBD as the snake is alive, eats, and otherwise is healthy. I just don't want him getting put down as the pet store can't sell the snake as it has obvious issues.

I was planning on purchasing a snake from a breeder in a few years, but I don't want this one put down if it could possibly be something that isn't fatal. It obviously isn't the most ideal situation but I want to give it a chance if I can.

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Why can't you test it for IBD?

Why are you assuming it's IBD?

I guess I am assuming it is IBD because of the symptoms the snake is showing and a tech that worked at a zoo with reptiles said it was acting similar to those they had to euth.

The blood tests that are offered are apparently often inconclusive is what I have been told/read.

As skiploder said there are hundreds of reasons for a snake to twist like that, most are not good and none of them can be diagnosed over the internet. Testing is really your only hope of finding out exactly what is going on.

The snake is being tested at the vet. I guess I will just sit tight and see what the outcome is. The only issue is that it is a big box pet store snake so they may not want to pay for everything. I will update you guys as I go along.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Why can't you test it for IBD?

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Likely because not all every vet got the memo that there's a new IBD blood test available.
http://labs.vetmed.ufl.edu/sample-re...ed-infections/
http://labs.vetmed.ufl.edu/sample-re...ions/boid-ibd/

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Why are you assuming it's IBD?

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Because ZOMG if a snake has neuro problems IT'S GOT IBD!!!! ... or another disease... or poisoning from mite treatment... or it was overheated... or a myriad of other reasons.

I am just going to throw this out there, but it seems that if the OPs concern is giving the snake a chance the question of what is causing the behavior is not really that important. OP, if I were in your position, and if I had no other snakes in the house (this is important because of contagious illnesses, you wouldn't want to risk your healthy animals to save one) I would ask the store to allow me to adopt or purchase him/her at a reduced price. You said you were thinking of getting a snake, so I am going to assume that means you don't already have one. If this were a purely practical or financial decision, then yes it would be important to know what the odds of recovery would be. But think of it this way, there is likely no way to know for sure if it is IBD without expensive testing. As others mentioned, many things can cause similar symptoms, some are always fatal, some are only sometimes fatal, and some (like temperature issues) will go away with proper care. Ask yourself if you could know for sure that there was a 10% chance of survial for this guy, would you chance it and try to save him. If you really just feel that he deserves the best chance he can have at survival, and you aren't risking any other animals' health, I would just go for it. That is just my opinion, and I have adopted sick or injured animals in the past. Some of them went on to live healthy happy lives and made a full recovery, some of them I lost as well, but I wouldn't go back and do anything differently. IMO it is always worth trying. Provided that you are can accept that he may not make it, and provided that you are alright with investing in what may be a lost cause, it becomes a purely ethical decision. It sounds to me like your gut is already telling you that you should at least try to save him, and if that is the case no amount of intellectual debate can change that. :)

For what it is worth I read did some research just a bit ago on what could cause this other than the spider gene and apparently even improper temps during incubation can result in this symptom. In that case it may not even be an illness. The snakes in question that displayed this symptom from the time they hatched lived perfectly normal lives, it was just something that went wrong during development.

You are correct. My only real concern is if this snake is in pain if I do decide to keep it from being euthed. I don't have any snakes, or even any other reptiles so there is no concern of transmission of any sort of disease. I work at a vet clinic so I understand very well that the snake may not make it, but if there is a chance it can I want to give it to him/her.

I am no expert, and hopefully someone will correct me if I am wrong, but given that ball pythons are so prone to showing signs of stress (balling, not eating, wandering...etc) I would think that if he is in pain you could tell. If he is curious (tongue clicking, calm exploration) and seems comfortable (a good eater, a regular sleep/activity level and schedule) I would think those would all be good signs that he is not in pain. From what I understand, IBD is an extremely painful disease and is always fatal. A snake with this condition would surely not behave like a normal happy snake. As for any other condition, I suppose you would have to guage it the same way you would with any animal, watch their behavior and if they seem distressed and nothing has worked to improve their condition consider intervening. Have you handled him much? What was his temperament like?

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Originally Posted by kiiarah

would think that if he is in pain you could tell.

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Not necessarily. They're animals, they're reptiles, they're very good at masking pain.

I have a Bumblebee ball (Spider/Pastel(avatar pic)) that looks like he's on a roller coaster ride every time we take him out. He's 1200 grams, eats fine, and show little wobble when in his tub. He does get a little confused when he drops his head under water sometimes in the bath tub. He's a sweet, healthy snake with some mental issues. lol

Ok, I took a few videos tonight.

Here is one of when the snake goes upside down. It will sit upside down, then right itself. If you poke it the snake uprights almost immediately.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K41l...FOqlq7ZmsRGjEg

Here are two clips showing the snake crawling/going up the wall.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNivZ...FOqlq7ZmsRGjEg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KRNs...sRGjEg&index=3


The snake is very active, it was up and moving my whole shift tonight. Apparently they put this snake out on the floor immediately since it is "rare". So not only did they not quarantine it but it had at least 20 people handling it the day it was unloaded.

The "bending" vid looks exactly like our small female bumblebee. I have seen other snake genes that people have said had a wobble also. Maybe there is something else to this snake besides PastePied. It appears to have been living a while judging from its size. I would gamble on it if it were me in your shoes. I would also try for a discount though. How much do they want for it?

I would find out...

How long has the pet store had it? How long has it had the neuro problem? Did it start off mild and get worse over time, or did the problem show up overnight?

Was it treated for mites, and if so, what was used and how?

You said it has been eating, has it taken a meal since the neuro issue showed up?

According to the pet store they didn't notice anything when they got the snake and it ate a pinkie the first day it was there. They noticed the issues after having it for two days. When the snake first came into the vet clinic a few days ago it seemed worse than it is now. The jerking is a lot more mild.

It hasn't taken a meal since we have had it at the vet clinic, but it has only been a few days since it ate last.

The snake is free. Pretty much I take it or it gets put down.

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Originally Posted by kiiarah

From what I understand, IBD is an extremely painful disease and is always fatal. A snake with this condition would surely not behave like a normal happy snake.

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Nah. Not correct.

What do you think from the videos Skiploder?

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Originally Posted by mtag

What do you think from the videos Skiploder?

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Don't know.

Without putting hands on the animal, it's all conjecture. First guess would be some sort of neuro issue, either induced from toxicosis, some sort of trauma, a metabolic issue or perhaps a congenital in nature.

Then again, you are running the risk that it could be anything from bacterial, viral, fungal or parasitic. To be 100% sure (and in the absence of knowing the animal's history) you need to run a variety of tests.

If it were me and I didn't have any other reptiles I'd take it. Since you say the jerking is more mild than when it first got there I think the poor thing deserves a chance.

Skip, I was under the impression that the biggest issue with IBD was that it was incurable? Have there been more recent developments and can it be treated now? Just want to have my facts right. I have read some of your other threads and know that you know what you are talking about. :)

If the snake is free and there are no other reptiles in the home I would definitely take it. It is worth a shot at least, seems you don't have anything to lose by trying.

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Originally Posted by kiiarah

Skip, I was under the impression that the biggest issue with IBD was that it was incurable? Have there been more recent developments and can it be treated now? Just want to have my facts right. I have read some of your other threads and know that you know what you are talking about. :)

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IBD isn't curable.

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If the snake is free and there are no other reptiles in the home I would definitely take it. It is worth a shot at least, seems you don't have anything to lose by trying.

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This is my thought, especially since it's improved a bit.

Also that store manager likely knows diddly-squat about snakes if one that size is being fed pinkies.

Take it!

Take the snake, I would. Keep his enclose dark and perfect temps/humidity and feed him well. I dont think that is IBD and I dont think that snake is suffering. I definatly dont think it deserves to be euthanized.

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Originally Posted by kiiarah

Skip, I was under the impression that the biggest issue with IBD was that it was incurable? Have there been more recent developments and can it be treated now? Just want to have my facts right. I have read some of your other threads and know that you know what you are talking about. :)

If the snake is free and there are no other reptiles in the home I would definitely take it. It is worth a shot at least, seems you don't have anything to lose by trying.

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It's not always painful.......many snakes carry it but never show symptoms.

I could fall in love with that weird little snake! If by taking him your not putting your own at risk then take him home :)


Molly & Steve
0.1 normal BP 'Precioucess'
0.1 BCI 'Luna'

Take it! I would...
I would also try feeding him. Pinkies are way too small for him. Try a rat crawler. If he eats it there's no doubt about taking him home. He deserves a life and you sound like your willing and able to give him the attention he needs.

What did You decide to do with this sweet little snake?

The vet offered to keep him for a week to see if it gets worse, on Tuesday we are going to try to feed. In the mean time I am rabidly reading all I can about ball python care.

It is odd, this seems to get better for a bit. He is definitely less wobbly when he is stargazing/bending over backwards. Sometimes he acts almost normal.

The thing that really worries me is that if you flip him over he will stay flipped over for a bit. It just doesn't seem natural and I have only really read about that with IBD. Beyond that the exotic vet has told me really any neurological issue can cause this symptom in a snake. Since this snake is from one of the big pet marts there is really a lot that could have gone wrong.

Would it be best to attempt to feed with what the snake is used to (thawed pinky and fuzzy mice), or try to do thawed rat? I can't find anywhere local that carries live.

Thanks for the update. This story has intrigued me and I hope he makes it. If he is used to mice I would attempt to feed him what he is used to, but maybe a more proper sized meal for him and not a pinkie. If you really want to try and feed him live I'd recommend joining a local reptile oriented facebook group, they can probably help point you in the right direction of local rodent breeders.

I am already pretty attached to him. I get to sign the "adoption" papers this monday then he will officially be mine.

Has anybody heard of this stuff or used it in snakes? It is supposed to help with neuro issues apparently.

http://www.vetriscience.com/index.ph...il&p=900590120

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Originally Posted by mtag

I am already pretty attached to him. I get to sign the "adoption" papers this monday then he will officially be mine.

Has anybody heard of this stuff or used it in snakes? It is supposed to help with neuro issues apparently.

http://www.vetriscience.com/index.ph...il&p=900590120

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The neuro issues are neurological damage - it cannot be reversed. It's either due to some sort of hereditary issue, chemical or mechanical trauma...or a pathogen.

If it's the former three, a supplement is not going to heal the damage... if it's pathogenic you can potentially stop additional damage, but giving snake oil to a snake isn't going to fix anything.

In the end, it goes without saying that it's your decision, however perhaps you can become attached to an animal that is not either sick or has a potentially life-shortening defect.

I had a carpet python that recently passed that I had received from someone who couldn't take care of her anymore. The snake had been kept on ceder chips for a while and had deveoped moderately severe neurological symptoms. Head quaver, neck twisting, turning over, difficulty controlling her movements, etc. I had her for 10 years. While her symptoms did get slightly better over time they never went away completely. I had to feed her by holding the rat up againsts the left side of her neck right behind her head so she could find it and constict it otherwise she always missed. She was a nice snake and a rewarding pet. I used her several times for educational programs but she was a special needs animal for the rest of her life.

That makes sense. I am a dog nut so I know there are some supplements that help with certain conditions with dogs, but I have no idea how that transfers over to a non-mammal.

I want to give it a chance and even if he does pass away in the near future I will have a practice run for my future snake. I have been going back and forth between a ball python or a corn snake, so this will give me a good chance to see.

Should I try using feeding tongs or drop the mouse in?

Definitely keep us updated on his progress once you get him home. You potentially have an animal that can bring years of education and beneficial experience to not only yourself but other snake owners and enthusiasts. Without being blindly optimistic, I wish you the best of luck and hope you can set up a steady situation with your new friend. Let us all know how he takes to the change in situation and if anything improves or changes. Who knows, this snake might just teach everyone something new about what is known about neuro deficits/abnormalities in snakes in general.

Today I went into the store he came from to ask them about the snake as they were REALLY vague over the phone.

I now know for sure that he ate last Tuesday from a tong. He struck it and ate it. The most interesting thing I learned is that upon arrival he was VERY cold. They said he was cold to the touch and would barely move around. They didn't notice the wobble till the next day when they found him laying upside down. I don't know if this was because he just wasn't moving as much so it wasn't obvious, or if it was because it didn't start until he started to warm up.

In regards to feeding, it is good news that he is eating, just keep in mind many snakes take a while to settle in so if he doesn't eat right away don't panic. My little ate his first feeding (which was actually a rather undersized prey item, but what he had been used to). The next two feedings he refused, due to mistakes in offering on my part (trying to use a separate feeding tub and allowing myself to worry and be too persistent with him, which I think only stressed him and put him off eating) and the second time after a rather difficult shed. After the two initial issues I was concerned so I scented the rat with tuna juice and he happily took it. I have been doing it that way since and he has eaten at every feeding. I am going to try without soon but in the meantime it seems to persuade him. Who knows, maybe he would have eaten without it, but if it is known to entice them I figured why not cover all the bases.

When the pet store says he was really cold do they mean the temperatures during shipping were known to be way too low or that he felt cold? Of course snakes are cold blooded, and you would think any pet store would be used to that, but I can't tell you how many big box pet stores I have been in where no employees there would handle the snakes, even to get them out to show a prospective buyer. I wouldn't rule out that the person who took him out was unfamiliar with how cold a snake can feel to a warm blooded human while still being fine. Just speculation, but is it possible that they mean that he was just balled up and wouldn't move? Because that could easily have been a stress response. It seems unlikely that after shipping and everything else, he would perk right up and explore, but I have never had a bp shipped so I don't know what would be considered normal behavior upon arrival.

Just out of curiosity, is this your first snake and had you been in the market before finding him? I really hope he thrives with you and goes on to live a long happy life, but if it does prove to be a bigger issues please don't let it discourage you from keeping in the future. I noticed someone had suggested that getting attached to a snake that is known to be healthy instead. Of course you can't choose not to feel compelled to help this little guy, but I think that poster's concern was that you could be setting yourself up for disappointment. In your shoes, I would absolutely place the snakes life over preventing myself from being disappointed, so I think it is really admirable that you are willing to go out on a limb for this guy. If it is your first snake, just keep a good perspective that you are taking on what could be a challenge and that you won't be getting the usual experience from this one. If anything goes badly, don't beat yourself up and just remember that the situation started as an uphill battle. Please do keep us posted on his progress, he is lucky to have you. :)

I see that you're posting similar stuff in 2 different threads. It's very confusing. Why not just stick to 1 thread in the future so that everyone can follow along without going back and forth?

Other thread:

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ake-with-neuro

I think this thread was started more as a place to discuss whether taking it on was a good idea and what could be wrong with it. Now that they have decided to take it after all I think the other one is more to discuss what to do to prepare the enclosure etc. At least that was the impression I got.

I did post as a separate thread as it was a completely separate issue entirely. This thread was discussing if I was going to take it, the other thread was about the enclosure question.

I now have him/her home. This is my first snake, I wasnt planning on getting a snake for another year or so. I hate to sound glum but I work in a vet clinic so death is a bit easier for me to deal with, especially since this obviously isn't a random death if he/she does pass away.

All you can do is give him a chance. I applaud you for trying where the pet store wrote him off.

Has he improved at all over the past few days?

He has been doing better the past few days, but the ride home he was flipping out (literally ;) ). It was pretty stressful but now that he is in his new tub he isn't twisting around at all, just seems to be checking it out. I am going to wait at least a week to try and feed again so he can get acclimated to his new environment.

That is so great that he is home and settling in. I have read horror stories of people getting an animal for the first time, having something come up they couldn't possibly have prevented and losing the animal, and then being too scared to get another. That is why I was wondering if it was your first snake, because honestly that would be my only concern. I am the same way in that if an animal is struggling I will absolutely take it on and do all I can for it, and if I can't help it is a matter of "at least I tried" and it usually isn't devastating, so no you don't sound calloused or glum at all, just realistic. It sounds like such a good sign that he is settling in. Stress can aggravate certain issues, and I somehow doubt the pet store was a perfectly calm and secure environment for him. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he shows marked improvement just from the transition to a good peaceful environment. :)

Just wanted to update. My boyfriend and I are arguing about what to name him. I am pulling for Vertigo, he wants Screwball (since he is all screwy and a ball python hahaha *sigh*).

The snake actually seems to be a bit better. He hasn't gone upside down since I have had him, and isn't corkscrewing at all. He has a definite wobble when he is lifting up his head. He is drinking regularly and is active at night. I am going out to buy a rat pinkie and a large fuzzy or hopper mouse for him today, probably will try feeding Wednesday. I was advised at the vet's office to start him on rats, but to offer mice if needed to get him to eat.

Another update, he ate the large hopper I offered him last night!

Sounds great!