Planning on first pairing: Opinions on conformation?

Hi guys,
I am planning my first pairings and want your input on conformation. Although I am working with petstore stock for now, I'd like to work towards good conformation in my rats, but I don't have any rat breeding experience, so I'd like your input... I have tried to read the standards and look at the illustrations on different rat clubs, but am not sure which qualities should be of most importance (size, body condition, head conformation, or eye size).

My current group is 3 female blue dumbos (all sisters), one male blue dumbo (their brother), and two unrelated males, a black hooded and an agouti. I tried to get pics of them, but the girls did not want to cooperate and all I got of the boys were their heads. I will list the positives or negatives that I know about each and welcome your feedback on which doe / buck would be the best pairing.The girls are now about 11 months old, and the 2 unrelated boys are about 13 months. So far, none have shown any health issues (except some sneezing from the agouti whom I am not planning on breeding) and there are no signs of tumors, etc. at this point.

Blossom
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...ff/Blossom.jpg
She probably has the best body condition of the three girls. Not tiny, but not overweight
Bubbles
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...ff/bubbles.jpg
The chunkiest of the girls, but not what I'd call obese
Buttercup
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t.../buttercup.jpg
The best temperament of the females, outgoing and social. VERY active, and also much smaller than the other two girls. I would call her "dainty". Sorry for the blurry pic. She would not hold still.
Howard (black hooded) and Leonard (agouti)
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...andLeonard.jpg
Although it is hard to tell in the pic, Howard has much better ears / eyes than Leonard. Leonard is much larger (close to 1/3 again as big) as the other two males. Howard is smaller for a male but I think he has the best muscle tone. Leonard seems to have a "pointy" nose and does not have the best temperament.
Mojo
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...stuff/mojo.jpg
Best personality of the boys, very laid back and friendly. Is quite overweight and his eye placement seems odd to me.

What I am thinking:
Breed 2 litters using 2 of the 3 females. If it is unsafe to breed a smaller female, then I will not use buttercup. All 3 seem to have ear and head issues and none of them has especially good eye size (that I can tell).
Use either Howard for both litters or Howard for one and Mojo for the other (if him being overweight is not an issue). Howard has better eyes than any of the dumbos (and head structure I think) so I think he would improve those traits in the females.
Reserve back the best looking babies conformation wise and breed them to *hopefully* end up with better eye size and head conformation in the second generation. I'm assuming that I would probably end up with black standard eared babies in the first generation (if howard is used), then when crossed back, I may get blue dumbos along with black dumbos / standards in the second generation.

Feel free to give me any input you have and thank you for your time / help!

I forgot to mention that I have contacted someone that breeds rats and in about 3 months, I should be getting some new rats from her.. She is expecting Himalayan, possibly Siamese, and blues (all both dumbo and standard, and some rexes), so I am hoping to get a blue rex dumbo from her along with 2-3 rex Siamese or Himalayan dumbos. I would like to work with both lines (blues and Siamese / Himalayan, in rex and dumbo) and am hoping that the blue dumbo that I get from her (if there is one in the litter) will work well with my lines and possibly improve them. I do not know if she shows, but she does take all her rats / litters to the vet and socializes them, so I'm hopeful that her animals will be better quality.. I found her on a feeder / breeder group in my state, so I do not know if she breeds feeders as well as pets or just pets.

I would need more photos from different angles to give a better analysis, but from what I can see in these photos:

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Originally Posted by artgecko

http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...ff/Blossom.jpg

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Long head, ears look like they might be a touch pointed, but looks like she has nice eyes (dumbo tend to have smaller eyes). .Body shape doesn't look too bad, but back looks to stop a little short with slightly squared rear. Nice thickness to tail. Can't tell for sure in this picture, but looks like her shoulders might be a little narrow too.

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http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...ff/bubbles.jpg

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Can't tell much about her body, but her nose looks a little long. Ears are nice and round, but a little small. Eyes look good.

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http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t.../buttercup.jpg

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Again can't tell much about body. Looks like shoulders might be a little narrow. Nose isn't as long as the others, but head shape looks weird (banana nose, common in dumbo). Eyes a little small, ears a little small and look a little pointed (elf ears), but nicely placed.

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http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...andLeonard.jpg

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Top rat has a nice shape, good shape and length, ears a little small. Bottom rat has a long nose, small ears. Both look to have good ear placement.

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http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t...stuff/mojo.jpg

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Nose looks a little long, ears wrinkled, eyes look good.

Thanks! the black hooded male has the best conformation I think. I will try to get better pics of the females... Let's just say they weren't cooperative with my attempts today. They all have faults, but I can't really get good stock here, so i'll have to make due with what I have. I'm leaning towards bubbles (the female in the second pic) and buttercup (the last female). I'll attempt to get pics from the side of both for you to see.

Thank you for your input!

For starters: I don't breed, show or keep dumbo rats, just top ears, so my ear advice may be wrong because I do not have the eye for it.

Note on breeding for type (via Carol Lawton of AFRMA [ http://www.afrma.org/brdstf_sqbuttsrats.htm ]):
"Let’s start with some basics so you’ll understand my philosophy on breeding. The core group of breeders, those you see winning at shows most often, believes in breeding “from the inside out.” We don’t all say it that way, but it all comes down to the same thing. Here are the basics in order of priority:
1. Excellent health and temperament are rarely discussed because those are a given. If you want to see either Karen or I get upset, just mention that the mother of your litter is a little sneezy or that the father can’t live with other males but that it’s okay because he’s great with people. We don’t even TRY to breed these things out . . . we simply don’t breed them.
2. Bone structure. This is the hardest part of the rat to change through breeding and can take many generations before you see improvement. If a rat has a long narrow head, a flat rump, a square butt, a short or thin tail, or a short body, the base of these problems is often bad bone structure. While poor bone structure isn’t always easy to see on babies, it’s usually obvious at a young enough age that you know that the rat should be pet-placed rather than kept for breeding (#1 reason for showing your kittens!!!).
3. Soft tissue. This is a little easier to change and can be accomplished in a few generations if you are very persistent. Soft tissue is anything between the rat’s bones and skin—it includes eyes, ears, tail (to a degree), muscle mass, facial structure (to a degree). Much of a rat’s head structure is based on how the soft tissue (muscle and fat) lays over the bone, it can make them cheeky, heavy in the neck, give them a pinched muzzle.
4. Coat and color. This can be changed in a single generation and should be one of your lowest concerns when you begin breeding."


Blossom: Nose is long, eyes could be larger but they are decent, needs an arched loin (is too tubular) [inferring from build] thin in the shoulders, pear shaped, pinched hips and slightly flat butt. I can't see her rear well enough to judge if she has a square tail or butt.
Bubbles: Ears are well shaped and well placed but a bit small. Her eyes appear to be nice and large from this picture and her muzzle looks to be adequate. Cannot judge much else.
Buttercup: Nice breadth of muzzle but muzzle needs to be shorter. Ears appear to be creased (common in dumbos) but are placed well.
Howard: Appears to have a nice head shape overall but could use larger ears and eyes as well as a shorter snout.
Leonard: Due to his personality being lackluster, I would remove him from breeding plans. In the picture he appears to have eyes that could be a bit larger, ears that could be a bit larger but are placed well, a pinched muzzle and a long snout.
Mojo: Nose appears long but he has nice width through the muzzle though it may be slightly pinched. Ear placement looks a bit high and the ears are creased.


"I forgot to mention that I have contacted someone that breeds rats and in about 3 months, I should be getting some new rats from her.. She is expecting Himalayan, possibly Siamese, and blues (all both dumbo and standard, and some rexes), so I am hoping to get a blue rex dumbo from her along with 2-3 rex Siamese or Himalayan dumbos. I would like to work with both lines (blues and Siamese / Himalayan, in rex and dumbo) and am hoping that the blue dumbo that I get from her (if there is one in the litter) will work well with my lines and possibly improve them. I do not know if she shows, but she does take all her rats / litters to the vet and socializes them, so I'm hopeful that her animals will be better quality.. I found her on a feeder / breeder group in my state, so I do not know if she breeds feeders as well as pets or just pets."


CongRATulations on your new arrivals and for finding a quality feeder breeder in your state! I'd highly recommend getting two babies of opposite genders from both of the litters you are choosing from, make sure at least one of each pair excels in type in some way your current stock does not. If the breeder does not provide pedigree information, at least to the Grandparents, I would do direct brother-sister crosses to bring out their recessives so you do not add any potential genetic issues into your existing stock that can be carried unexpressed through generations. Try to breed your Siamese and Himalayan lines when it is cooler so their points will be richer and have more depth of color. I'm discontinuing my Himi because (though their personalities are absolutely fantastic) I can't seem to get decent arch of loin (they are too tubular) and they seem to be far more vulnerable to respiratory illness than my other rats. They are a beautiful variety to work with. I'd recommend keeping Himi, Siamese and nice PEW (you can source these from laboratory stock, if you wish) because they compliment one another. [Explanation here: http://www.rmca.org/Articles/himalayan.htm ]

Thank you for the huge amount of information Lore. I wish that the pictures I provided were better, but the females refused to hold still. I believe I will be focusing only on breeding two of the females: buttercup and bubbles. Blossom, as you said, has a very long and pointy nose. She is also the most "skittish" of the females, so temperament wise, not very good. OF the males, Howard is my best bet, I think. He was not socialized as a baby, so is not super friendly, but will allow me to pet him and will come up to the cage door. His head is also shorter than the females and his eyes appear larger than they do in the picture. Leonard has bad temperament, so is out (although I think his body type is the best) and Mojo, although excelling in temperament, has weird eyes... They seem too highly placed and aren't exactly symmetrical (the eye on the left side of his head is slightly higher than the other eye). He also has a sloped "bananna" nose and is quite fat.

I will be looking especially for larger eyes, and shorter / broader non-sloped noses from the stock the other breeder has. She has probably just done the pairing, so I will not know if she will have pups from the pairing for a while yet. She told me that she apprenticed under a breeder who had been breeding for many years, so I'm hopeful that her stock originates in show lines.

The best advice you can get for breeding to standards, is to start with good rats. Rats and mice have been bred to standard for over 300 years to get to where they are today (mice have had muce more work done). Basically, there is no way to start with pet store rats, and get anywhere near standards. You can breed them for fun for now, but your real goal should be to get rid of the pet store ones and get the best already conformed ones you can find, and improve on them slowly. :)

And something that a lot of people do, that doesn't make sense, is to breed a good show rat, to a pet store rat to 'improve' the rats. Which isn't good... Instead of breeding 2 good rats together, and getting more good rats, you breed a good rat and a bad rat together, and get 'ok' babies. Which doesn't really get the project anywhere.

This is coming from a prior show breeder! ;)

Thanks for the advice. I'm not necessarily looking to show, just want to improve what I have so that their appearance, temperament, and health is good. Proper head structure is a main goal for me because I think a lot of breathing problems may be due to it and possibly vision issues with small eyes.

I have no show breeders anywhere near me and the only one who has a site in my state makes buyers sign a no breeding contract. Obvisouly she would never sell to me knowing that I want to breed AND have snakes lol. The breeder who I have been in contact with should have better rats than I do, but I don't know if they are "show stock".

No breeding contracts kind of piss me off when it comes to rodents, lol. Like, seriously. If you don't want us breeding them, get them fixed. :confusd:

Yeah.. I know. I don't agree with them, but couldn't lie to her and sign the contract, then breed. I'd just not feel good about it. Its too bad all the show breeders are so uptight about that..You would think they would want to grow their hobby. Imagine if BP breeders made you sign a no breeding contract when buying from them. :p

I am hoping to work with what I have, add some new genes from this breeder, and work towards producing solid, healthy rats with good temperaments and better looking features. When I'm sure of temperament and health, I will try to sell some as pets as well. (I don't know if there's demand for pet rats here though). For the first couple generations, I will plan on using those I'm not keeping for breeders as feeders.

Hey I've seen you on RatForum, lol.

Fraido- Yep... just don't tell anyone there my dirty little secret (that I'm going to be breeding my rats... on purpose) lol. The breeder forum here has excellent advice and mods and isn't anti-breeding. It's nice to post on a lower-key site. The people on RF can give good advice too, but can sometimes be a little fanatical in their beliefs on certain topics. :P

They certainly can! I love rats, but I love snakes too. It creates much hate (most of the time) on forums just for rats. The people on RF are just very passionate, lol.

I know. And I respect their feelings, hence not posting anything snake-related there or mentioning breeding. I just wish they would encourage "good" breeding more. That would stop a lot of their woes about people always buying from a pet store. When you have no other options, you have to buy from a pet store. I get them not liking feeder breeders, but I think encouraging good rat breeding would help their cause rather than hurt it.

I agree.


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Okay so this it totally, completely ignorant on my end, but I did not know breeding rats was such a big thing, if that's the right way to describe it - like, I didn't know they were bred for showing and conformation and whatnot. I know with horses breeding is a huge topic with tons of variables (conformation, temperment, color, show history, all the same things) and talking about breeding horses with other horse people is guaranteed to start a trainwreck... I did not think that would apply to rats! I guess I figured they're rats, you know? how much can there be in it? It's stupid, I know, and again it's very ignorant on my end!

This thread is very interesting, though! I didn't know rat conformation was a thing. What do you do in rat shows? What do you show in, what are the categories? Can you post an example of a conformationally correct rat? I don't plan on buying or breeding them but I'm interested!

Spoons- I've never shown my rats, and am just starting out breeding, so I'm not the one to ask. There are a couple members on here with extensive rat showing experience and they would be the better parties to answer your questions. You can also do a search for rat / mouse clubs (I know AFRMA is one) and most have pics of colors and standards. Most of the standards have to do with good structural traits (large well shaped heads, good sized eyes, thick bone mass so they aren't prone to breakage) and traits that separate rats from looking like mice... Anything thin, pointy, etc. is usually bad. I want to focus on good conformation for the health benefits (better vision and breathing, rats that can birth easily, etc.) and on good temperment as well. Although color and markings are a fun aspect for me, they are not as important.

From what I gather, the "pet" rat community (much like the pet guinea pig community) online is very anti-breeding. They see people turning over their GPs / rats to shelters and say that everyone should adopt and not dare breed their own because they assume that you will breed unhealthy rats / GPs and/or not find homes for the babies resulting in more rodents in rescue, etc. If you look at the forum rules for RF it explicitly says that you aren't allowed to even mention breeding. Apparently the show rats community has others issues. For them (from what I've heard) it's only ok to breed if you have goals and morals that line up with theirs and it is a very closed community. As I said they say that all GOOD breeders will make you sign a no breeding contract if you buy from them.

I for one, am very glad of the experienced breeders willing to post on this stie and help out newbies like me. :)

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Originally Posted by artgecko

Fraido- Yep... just don't tell anyone there my dirty little secret (that I'm going to be breeding my rats... on purpose) lol. The breeder forum here has excellent advice and mods and isn't anti-breeding. It's nice to post on a lower-key site. The people on RF can give good advice too, but can sometimes be a little fanatical in their beliefs on certain topics. :P

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Um yeah, I know that feeling... I'm waiting from some fall back on my own head. :P
Since I use the same username here as I have on rat forums (dumb if I were trying to keep everything a big secret), and I was quite well known in the rat circles, its really only a matter of time. I've pretty much left the rat communities to avoid the black listing that will come sooner or later. Or maybe it already has and I just don't know it! lol

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Originally Posted by Spoons

Okay so this it totally, completely ignorant on my end, but I did not know breeding rats was such a big thing, if that's the right way to describe it - like, I didn't know they were bred for showing and conformation and whatnot. I know with horses breeding is a huge topic with tons of variables (conformation, temperment, color, show history, all the same things) and talking about breeding horses with other horse people is guaranteed to start a trainwreck... I did not think that would apply to rats! I guess I figured they're rats, you know? how much can there be in it? It's stupid, I know, and again it's very ignorant on my end!

This thread is very interesting, though! I didn't know rat conformation was a thing. What do you do in rat shows? What do you show in, what are the categories? Can you post an example of a conformationally correct rat? I don't plan on buying or breeding them but I'm interested!

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Rat shows are quite similar to other small animal shows, i.e. rabbits, guinea pigs, chickens. Some clubs have classes other than conformation, but I'll start with the conformation....

In a conformation class, the rat is (supposed to be) judged primarily on conformation. The judge looks at how the rat is put together, its bone structure, soft tissue structure, how it moves, etc. The rat that conforms most closely to the prescribed standards gets the most points. After conformation, then other traits are considered: color, markings, fur, whatever else they have these days. Those traits are also judged on the standard: hairless are ideally completely naked without fuzz even, rex ideally have tightly curled fur and whiskers, black rats are ideally pure pitch black with no brownness, dinginess, or silvering, etc. It all depends on what color, fur, and body (dumbo, manx) category each rat falls into.

Now, some clubs have other classes. For example, "most lickiest", "most friendly", "most cuddly", whatever. These cutesy classes are very subjective, and basically judged on a whim. They are meant for fun only.

AFRMA (which really only has shows in Southern California) also has a couple other classes: kitten class, progeny class, etc. These are judged on conformation, but also look at a few other things. The progeny class, for example, looks at the improvement over the generations, as well as consistency. AFRMA also has a couple "non-standard" classes, like "British", any rat or mouse entered into that class must be 100% British bloodlines (basically imported stock). I am not aware of other US clubs that have these same classes, but AFRMA is also one of the longest standing clubs in the US (founded in 1984). Shows in the UK might be a little different, their organization (NFRS) is even older.

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Originally Posted by artgecko

From what I gather, the "pet" rat community (much like the pet guinea pig community) online is very anti-breeding. They see people turning over their GPs / rats to shelters and say that everyone should adopt and not dare breed their own because they assume that you will breed unhealthy rats / GPs and/or not find homes for the babies resulting in more rodents in rescue, etc. If you look at the forum rules for RF it explicitly says that you aren't allowed to even mention breeding. Apparently the show rats community has others issues. For them (from what I've heard) it's only ok to breed if you have goals and morals that line up with theirs and it is a very closed community. As I said they say that all GOOD breeders will make you sign a no breeding contract if you buy from them.

I for one, am very glad of the experienced breeders willing to post on this stie and help out newbies like me. :)

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Its very much like the dog/cat world. You have your rescue people who see the evils of society, with all the dogs and cats turned over and euthanized in shelters, and think that any and all breeding is bad. Then you have your show people who breed for ribbons, and think everyone else should do the same (and ideally health testing, etc is added to the breeding mix, which we don't exactly have in rats). And then you have those in between: The "backyard breeders" who don't necessarily know what they are doing and/or have been ostracized from the rest of the community because they don't follow all the guidelines everyone else believes they should adhere to (this is basically what the rest of the rat community calls us feeder breeders), and in the dog world you also have the working dog breeders who breed their dogs not for show, but for a purpose (the show and rescue people in the dog community might call those breeders "backyard breeders" too, depending on exactly what the person is doing). Feeder breeders can consider themselves as breeding for a purpose, but the rest of the rat community still considers us "backyard breeders" regardless how exactly we go about our business. They prescribe the same stereotypes to all of us, and don't care to get to know any of us enough to see how we really operate. Part of it is, they can't come to terms with the fact that the species their beloved pet belongs to actually is a food animal (pet pot bellied pig vs bacon?).

I've been on all sides of the rat community. Just throwing that out there. They would probably hate me now because I'm breeding rats for food.

that's really neat. All stuff I didn't know. I have some knowledge of breeding dogs (not because I do so myself, rather because it's hard NOT to in today's world) and I own a horse, so I get all the breeding talk there too. It seems that it's pretty universal about the general populus looking at breeding as being a horrible nasty thing that nobody should ever do unles your horseis the picture perfect example of its breed (very rare) AND has happened to win 4000000 shows (getting forst of course) and have the most placid dog temperment, and of course it has to be registered with award winning show horses in all of its lineage, and even then they have an anti vibe at you. All for similar reasons- there's so many horses in slaughter and in rescues that it's considered irresponsible to breed.

Which is of course silly. If everybody stopped breeding we'd have no more horses, or dogs, or what have you. Obviously I think it should be regulated and reined in a bit, I don't think just anybody should pump out baby animals, but I generally avoid breeding discussion, lol. I was actually a bit shocked when I came around here and everybody talked about breeding snakes like it's no big thing.

All very interesting! I will have to go look up more about rats now. I wanted a rat when I was younger, and though I likely won't buy any now, I am still fond of them!

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Originally Posted by Spoons

that's really neat. All stuff I didn't know. I have some knowledge of breeding dogs (not because I do so myself, rather because it's hard NOT to in today's world) and I own a horse, so I get all the breeding talk there too. It seems that it's pretty universal about the general populus looking at breeding as being a horrible nasty thing that nobody should ever do unles your horseis the picture perfect example of its breed (very rare) AND has happened to win 4000000 shows (getting forst of course) and have the most placid dog temperment, and of course it has to be registered with award winning show horses in all of its lineage, and even then they have an anti vibe at you. All for similar reasons- there's so many horses in slaughter and in rescues that it's considered irresponsible to breed.

Which is of course silly. If everybody stopped breeding we'd have no more horses, or dogs, or what have you. Obviously I think it should be regulated and reined in a bit, I don't think just anybody should pump out baby animals, but I generally avoid breeding discussion, lol. I was actually a bit shocked when I came around here and everybody talked about breeding snakes like it's no big thing.

All very interesting! I will have to go look up more about rats now. I wanted a rat when I was younger, and though I likely won't buy any now, I am still fond of them!

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I agree! I too was quite shocked when I started going onto these snake groups, and saw everyone talk about breeding. I was like, "Whoa! This is culture shock!" lol

I too have horses, and dogs, and so much else! lol I do think breeding is important, but I also think there should be purpose behind it, beyond strictly making money that is. I think there should be goals, whether it is a more aesthetically pleasing animal (as is the case with our snakes - though I think temperament and health, i.e. feeding response, should also be considered), a food/production animal, or an animal that actually performs a job. I have no interest in breeding dogs or horses, way too much money going into that! But I did used to work at an Arabian horse breeding stable. In fact, one of my two horses came from that breeder, and he's an amazing animal! 70-something% Crabbet bloodlines, wonderful temperament and personality, nice build, and pretty much a good all-around horse. He doesn't have any show titles, not because he isn't good enough, but because I simply haven't put the time and effort into showing him (no time, not enough money, little desire). Sometimes I'm kind of sad i had him gelded, because he is such a wonderful horse, all around, but I am happy I did because all good stallions make great geldings! ;)

I have a dog who may very well be purebred Dutch Shepherd, but was adopted from a shelter (he was picked up as an unneutered stray). He's neutered now, but shows a lot of that working driving. I think that's an important part of dog breeding - breeding for a purpose, and for some breeds, breeding that working ability and drive. Some breeds I think really shouldn't exist (i.e. those who can't breed or birth naturally), and I think its sad how some breeds are so different now than they were decades or centuries ago because of shows. But that's neither here nor there, and not something I'm involved in either way.

I AM breeding goats. I have dairy goats, and of course to produce milk you need babies! My buck isn't registered, though possibly purebred. For my purposes, that may not really matter, because the babies I produce can double as market animals. I'm going to wait to see how this first set of babies comes out, but I'm seriously considering getting him neutered, then putting some money into a good quality registered buck (whether it be the same breed as my does, or a meat breed from which I can produce market babies, or one of both!). My doe is registered, and I'm looking at purchasing a second registerable doe. I feel that if I'm going to be breeding these animals, there needs to be purpose behind them, because where I live, pet goats really aren't a huge thing. I'm ok with making market babies that will be made into meat - they still have a purpose and won't go to waste. I'm also ok with producing good quality does who can in turn be used to produce more milk. And if I find a pet buyer, I'm ok with that too. I just want to make sure each and every baby has a purpose and place to go, and doesn't just end up a random casualty of the mass producing, impulsive world we live in.

I guess that's a little bit of a tangent, but just wanted to say I agree. :)

Good points!
Sorraia- I kinda see my rats that way. I want to breed them mainly to improve on their health and temperament and make them better "pets" for my own enjoyment and possibly to sell as such, if there's a market for them here, but while doing so, I will also be using the ones that don't "make the cut" so to speak, to feed my snakes. I am going slow at first to see how things go, but would ideally like to have a colony that will sustain my reptile hobby (I only have 6 snakes, so it wouldn't need to be a large number of rats) and also produce consistently good pet animals with few or no health issues. I think rats make excellent small pets, but have also seen first hand the results of bad temperament and unsocialized animals... I consider myself lucky to have gotten two males with passable temperaments that weren't socialized (from the feeder bin at petco). I am planning on not placing any of the rats I produce as pets until at least the second or third generation so that I can be sure of their temperament as adults.

Too bad you weren't closer. Or would be nice to have local people with similar goals to work together! ;)

God, I can just imagine the backlash you would get on said rat forum if they heard about feeding the ones who didn't make the cut to snakes. I think it's a wonderful thing to do - the snakes need to eat, right? It addresses not only the issue of having too many rats, or getting things you didn't want from the breeding, but it also helps give you the best selection to choose from for breeding without having to worry about homing the ones that don't make the breeder's cut. I think it's a win win.

Oh, but how dare you do something like that. You bad, bad person you.

On a similar tangent, you should read the comments on YouTube on the videos of people feeding rats to snakes. Some of the things those people say make my jaw drop.

I also didn't know rat shows were a thing. That's awesome.

Why do you think there is no show world for ball pythons? They're a popular pet and come in tons of colors. Is it because of everyone being afraid of incurable diseases like IBD?

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Originally Posted by salt

I also didn't know rat shows were a thing. That's awesome.

Why do you think there is no show world for ball pythons? They're a popular pet and come in tons of colors. Is it because of everyone being afraid of incurable diseases like IBD?

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Probably because no one has done it, or just doesn't want to. The disease concerns haven't stopped people from going to expos to sell their snakes. Also there are similar disease concerns for rats,but that doesn't stop people from showing them.

I also have experience with the rat forum. I think they are a little high strung. I wanted to start out with good quality breeder rats, but like you, most breeders require a no breeding contract. I find this to be completely silly. I managed to find a friend who breeds feeder rats and picked up a few babies from her. One in particular I have hand raised and she is the sweetest baby (she is now a pet and will not be used for breeding or food ). The other ones I got at a later time and they are terrified of me. She didn't handle them for obvious reasons and I feel I'm at an obvious disadvantage now. I plan on breeding the females for a litter or two ( choosing a few females from their babies and hand raising them) and then use the mothers for snake food. I hope to use the babies for snake food, and then whatever is left over, sell for pets. I love rats and I love snakes. It's just a sad fact of life that snakes eat rats. My goal is create rat babies with good temperaments ( it really seems that the temperament isn't "passed down", it's how they are raised and handled). I also want the babies to have the best lives while they are with me. I wish you a ton of luck with breeding. Maybe post some pics of your rat babies when you can?

Glad to know there are more people interested in this topic. It would be great to have a community of feeder breeders that also breed for quality.

I will definitely post pics... The females never hold still, so hard to get pics and I haven't been able to find my good camera since I moved. I will document the pregnancy and babies. I am hoping to get feedback on the babies when they are old enough to pick my keepers. I've read that 6 weeks is a good time to choose, but don't really know what to look for. It is likely that my first generation will all be black with various markings, and all should be recessive for blue and dumbo, so we'll see. In a couple months, i plan to do a second breeding with buttercup's sister and the same male, so that will yield similar offspring.

I think that temperament has both a genetic and socialization component. I am planning on weeding out any aggressive rats, if any are produced from the breedings. I am starting with adults that have good temperaments, so hopefully this won't be an issue. Ideally, I'd love to place the rats that don't suit my needs as pets, but I just don't think there's a market here. There are NO breeders in my area and I was lucky to find the person that I will get babies from... She doesn't even live in my city.

I think breeding rats is more popular in the north east and in california for some reason, but there are practically no clubs or any interest here in the south east. I'd love to be closer to those with similar things in mind. I was hoping to find new stock at the reptile show in Atlanta (the closest to me at 2 hours away) but only found one person selling true feeder rats.. not socialized and not in very clean conditions).

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Originally Posted by sorraia

Too bad you weren't closer. Or would be nice to have local people with similar goals to work together! ;)

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I would love to work with you sometime! Maybe not too soon due to a few life issues(mostly revolving around my strabismus treatment eating my funds and my sister with down syndrome taking up a lot of my free time), but maybe sometime in the next year :)

A bunch of people asked me for pet rats a while ago, so I had one litter of pet rats as an experiment to see how I would enjoy it with all the added responsibility... and I REALLY enjoyed it. So, I retired ALL of my rats I got from pet stores and picked up some rats from ratteries in Northern California(one even has a pedigree from Jozzy's Rat Pack) during the rat show last month to start my own lines. I also started up a rattery website mostly to document my own breeding, while using it to sell a few babies I've worked with but don't find match up to my standards and really don't want them to be feeders. I wouldn't consider myself a real rattery though, it's just nice for people to have a place they can go to when they need to contact me ^^

I still have your guys going and I absolutely love them! After having pet store animals in my feeder stock for a while, I learned what a bad rat was. Even though they weren't aggressive, they were not easy to handle and would jump or escape while I had the tubs open. They made some damn cute rats, but I didn't like how non-relaxed they were compared to the ones I got from you. I kept close track of who bred to who, so it was easy for me to eliminate guys with parents whom I didn't like.

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Originally Posted by sorraia

Probably because no one has done it, or just doesn't want to. The disease concerns haven't stopped people from going to expos to sell their snakes. Also there are similar disease concerns for rats,but that doesn't stop people from showing them.

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Last time I tried to suggest a BP show, people lost their minds and a flame war started. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Rhasputin

Last time I tried to suggest a BP show, people lost their minds and a flame war started. :rolleyes:

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That happens when anyone suggests anything, for the most part. :|


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Temperament definitely does have a genetic component, but also environmental. It is neither nature nor nurture, but a little of both. When I was breeding for pet and show purposes only, I had rats that did NOT need handling, and were just as friendly and easy going as those that were handled from day one. It is about looking for the boldest, least stressed, most way going rats,and go from there.

Katdog that's great! I'm glad they are doing well for you. I keep meaning to go to the shows just to see how things are going, but I never make it. You know about the farm zoo I have! Lol
I have to ask though, Do any of your pedigreed rats have BWR in their lines? If so what names?

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Originally Posted by Fraido

That happens when anyone suggests anything, for the most part. :|


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Truth.

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Originally Posted by sorraia

Katdog that's great! I'm glad they are doing well for you. I keep meaning to go to the shows just to see how things are going, but I never make it. You know about the farm zoo I have! Lol
I have to ask though, Do any of your pedigreed rats have BWR in their lines? If so what names?

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Nope, I only have one boy with a written Pedigree right now. I'm still getting info from the breeders about my other rats, but I doubt there's any BWR in their lines.
I would be stoked to come across your rats though! PMing you would be my first thought for sure! I'm sure it would make you super happy to find some of your descendants :)

I didn't actually end up being able to go to the show, unfortunately, it would have been a blast! I had too many things going on that saturday, I picked up my rats the night before the show.
I can imagine how difficult it can be with all your animals! We used to have a farm zoo like that before moving to Hemet. Man, do I miss that!

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Originally Posted by Kat_Dog

Nope, I only have one boy with a written Pedigree right now. I'm still getting info from the breeders about my other rats, but I doubt there's any BWR in their lines.
I would be stoked to come across your rats though! PMing you would be my first thought for sure! I'm sure it would make you super happy to find some of your descendants :)

I didn't actually end up being able to go to the show, unfortunately, it would have been a blast! I had too many things going on that saturday, I picked up my rats the night before the show.
I can imagine how difficult it can be with all your animals! We used to have a farm zoo like that before moving to Hemet. Man, do I miss that!

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There's a few descendants floating around here and there, mostly from early in my lines. most of the other breeders I had worked with are no longer breeding either, or moved out of state. There's definitely a lot of turn over in the rat community. Those who stay around the longest all seem to go underground at some point too. It's weird.