I keep coming back to spider

Hey guys,

Just a quick wondering...

I'm looking for a male for next season. I really want it to have two pattern altering genes since I don't have any right now. I guess there is a pattern altering aspect to cinnamon but nothing drastic.

I'm not really excited about dealing with the neurological problems that Spider brings to the table, though I thinks spiders are great, so I keep looking around for pattern altering morphs.

Ghi looks cool, when it looks cool. The same with woma and enchi, the extreme cases look cool but not reliably. Just not a big fan of pinstripe, its too... color eliminating? I don't know just not interested. Leopard again, can be cool but is so in extreme cases.

I got excited about the Red Stripe for a while and still sort of am... but more because there are relatively few combos out there right now than because it is a drastic pattern altering gene.

I think Calico is leading the list for me right now. It seems to do the sameish thing spiders do to the side coloring which is why i keep coming back to spider.

Of course I love clown but I intend that to be a project a few years down the road when I can better afford it than to start with a clown male now. For the same reason not interested in any of the recessive pattern altering genes



I will be breeding on cinnamon females and already have a Pastave male for next season so am just interested in adding this one animal.

I'm not look at anything over 500 right now, just wondering if I was overlooking something, any suggestions?

I really like calico, but I like spider too. We produced a male cinnamon calico a couple weeks ago that just took his first meal today and while a simple combo I keep looking in that tub.

Spiders are great! When I first started collecting, I honestly didn't really like them. Then I picked one up with a group purchase - and she ended up being my favorite of the entire bunch :D She had a great personality and was just beautiful - way different in person than what I was seeing in pictures online. She had the wobble and got really wonky sometimes when she was eating (got all upside down and crazy) but she hit hard every time and was just a complete sweetheart. I miss her a lot.

My second favorite is the pinstripe - don't discount that color. It's a different brown/tan than you see on normal - just real smooth.

Never had a calico, but it's climbing my charts lately (actually leaning more towards Sugar).

You keep mentioning that you only like certain morphs "in extreme cases". I think what you're actually saying is that you only like good examples of the morph. That should be the case with everyone! If you don't like the particular GHI, Woma, Enchi, Leopard, etc that you see, don't even give it a second look. I know it sounds simple enough, but honestly waiting and then suddenly finding that perfect example of an animal that speaks to you is the best feeling in the world. :D

Also, with Spiders, the wobble isn't really something you "deal" with. It just is what it is. The incredible combos that Spider brings to the table more than make up for their quirkiness (maybe the quirkiness even adds to them?).

Finally, why are you looking to pick up another male? Right now, you've got 5 males and only 9 females. Balance-wise, I'd be looking to pick up another lady if I were in your shoes.

Oh, heh, because...

The het pied male is actually my wife's for her pied project and the paints are a pair. I thought about using the paint male on more females but would rather add some more variety also the story with him is a little iffier than I'd like so I'd like to prove to myself he is a paint before I start counting on his genetics. Since paints can be tricky I am hoping that pairing him with another paint and maybe getting a super will prove him out definitively. The fire and cinnamon male are out of the picture next year it is what I am swapping the perspective male and the pastave out for. Assuming we get what we want out of them this year.

Or maybe if we get enough fire girls to justify keeping the fire male around and plopping out some BELs that is also a quick money option.

Indeed everyone should like the good expression of the genes but since that can take several generations to breed for, and an operation far larger than mine. This is why I'm steering towards a morph that expresses well reliably, like the spider. Which I really do like.

And looking at the sugars, good suggestion hadn't thought of those, they have that similar side patterning that calico shares with spider. And yes, I have only ever heard that spiders are fine, I feel like if I just GET ONE, maybe at a show :) my entire internal argument will be resolved.

Out of curiosity have sugar and calico been proven to be different genes?

Spiders are ok. The wobble is not bad in all of them. Just pick one with very little wobble, and you should be fine. They always look good when combined with other morphs.

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Originally Posted by Velrys

Indeed everyone should like the good expression of the genes but since that can take several generations to breed for, and an operation far larger than mine. This is why I'm steering towards a morph that expresses well reliably, like the spider. Which I really do like.

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I'm not sure what you mean by this. All I was saying is that you should only purchase incredible animals to begin with. What makes you think it will take several generations to produce high quality animals if you start with high quality animals right out of the gate? Quality in = quality out. That's about as reliable as you can get. If you need an example of this, check out the results of Travis's (h00blah) first two clutches ever from earlier this year: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...=enchi+calider and http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...pastel+special. You'd better believe that those babies have some hot looking parents.

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Originally Posted by Velrys

Out of curiosity have sugar and calico been proven to be different genes?

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It's not definitive either way.

Oh, I just meant that I would argue the fact that pretty parents lead directly to pretty babies. There is a lot of variation in the genes that isn't being eliminated in a single generation. The calico separation made at Constrictors Unlimited and the Pied project at JKobylka are examples of breeding for certain traits that have resulted in a more reliable offspring result. But I don't believe, sorry, that buying a pretty snake from some guy at a show will necessarily produce pretty offspring.

Because of this I look at the variation of a gene as well as what a good example of it looks like.

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Originally Posted by Velrys

Oh, I just meant that I would argue the fact that pretty parents lead directly to pretty babies. There is a lot of variation in the genes that isn't being eliminated in a single generation. The calico separation made at Constrictors Unlimited and the Pied project at JKobylka are examples of breeding for certain traits that have resulted in a more reliable offspring result. But I don't believe, sorry, that buying a pretty snake from some guy at a show will necessarily produce pretty offspring.

Because of this I look at the variation of a gene as well as what a good example of it looks like.

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OK - I'll bite. What exactly are your qualifications for buying a snake? What makes you believe that a good looking example of a morph is a fluke and not the result of several generations of breeding? There are many smaller breeders that produce amazing animals consistently - just at an obviously lower volume than Mike's or Justin's businesses.

First of all, thanks Eric :gj:!

2nd, I'll address 4 things that stood out to me in this thread, that I believe we can help Velrys with :gj:.

1 - You want a POWERFUL pattern-changer male to breed to females.
Calico and Spider are both awesome choices, and they're on the cheaper spectrum of ball pythons :gj:. It should also be noted that Calico changes not just pattern, but can definitely alter COLOR of some of the awesome morphs out there. These 2 are definitely favorites of mine.

2 - You're concerned about the spider wobble.
That's fine! Some people get turned off by things that don't necessarily affect the quality of life in ball pythons. Example: duck-billing in super cinnies. Some people think it's cute, and others deem it a genetic defect, and avoid it. As long as it doesn't affect the snake's eating, shedding, pooping, breeding, and ball-python habits (mostly sleeping and biting), then I would deem it worthy of consideration for breeding.

I have a granite female that seems to have smaller than regular heads, but it isn't really noticeable unless you're used to seeing 100s of BPs a day lol. She's still a great feeder for me, super tame, and is one of my problem-free snakes :gj:!

Spider happens to be my favorite pattern-changing morph, and most of my snakes have that gene. I would definitely not ban yourself from adding spider. I hatched out 2 spider combo babies, and both of them are eating great, already shed and pooped once, and are growing like weeds :gj:. You only notice their wobble when they're stretched out, trying to reach for something.

3 -

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Or maybe if we get enough fire girls to justify keeping the fire male around and plopping out some BELs that is also a quick money option.

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There's no such thing as quick-money with ball pythons. I don't mind if you're in this to start a business and make money, and at the end of the day, that's what you're hoping to make. But you simply must ditch the fantasy of pairing 2 snakes together, having eggs, hatching babies, and selling them all in a set time frame. If there's one thing I learned after only 1 season of breeding, it's that nothing goes according to plan :please:..

4 - You're skeptical about quality snakes producing quality babies because there's so much variety in each morph.
I really like where you're coming from with this, because I think it's exactly how I felt when I first started really getting into morphs. When I decided to start breeding BPs, I wanted the best quality snakes regardless, because I want to be excited to clean my tubs knowing that there's a top-shelf animal in each one. I really started paying attention to different traits and quality of each morph after I noticed certain breeders' morphs looked similar, and it's because of the line they're working with. Ed has THE coolest looking enchis in the biz, Blue Apple Herps and Jimmy Ma have my favorite kind of patterned lessers, and Rick Schossler has the flamiest HGWGYBs I've seen. Susan Hardy has some of the nicest pastel and enchi combos as well (which may be because she has a bunch of secret stuff she mixes in with everything :P!). Desert Dweller Reptiles also has some of the highest-yellow pastel calicos I've ever seen, with great pattern!

Regardless, there's definitely quality in some morphs, and then complete randomness in others. Spiders, pieds, calicos, and bananas seem to be completely random. Clowns, enchis, pastels, and fires are definitely morphs that I'm convinced have inheritable traits that you should pay attention to, if you want to make the best looking examples of that morph.

I guess intent and supporting records would prove to me that quality isn't random. I'm sure they do, but is every animal produced amazing? I would rather produce reliable quality animals than a single or few amazing examples and some mediocre examples.

Because I have such a small collection I feel like it would be a more sound investment to find an animal that will produce an entire clutch of reliable quality than an animal that will produce a clutch of one amazing animal and some others.


H00blah, I agree with you on spider. The reason for the title of this thread is that I really enjoy the morph and the color changing aspects of it. When Mr. Spence suggested calico, which I had not thought of, I was excited because it seems to do something similar to spider.

That is a great way to put it, "powerful" is how I would describe what I am looking for.

Also agreed I don't expect to make any money... ever actually. What I meant was that I don't have any interest in Leucistic animals other than having one for a guaranteed gene in a pairing. I just meant that they would be sold rather than kept since I seem to be in the minority in my opinion of leucistics was hoping they would go quickly.

I see what you're saying. But that is the point of "lines" right? Breeders find animals that have some trait they like and they hatch a clutch, keep the best example of that trait from the clutch and breed it back over and over. That is breeding for a trait, since a BP generation is only a year, more for females some time, I would assume this can have an affect very rapidly.

It's interesting that you put spider in the unreliable column when I would consider them to be reliable. Maybe we are looking at different aspects of the morph? When I look at a spider I am looking at the slender black markings on the spine that extends down the sides I am looking primarily at contrast not at spacing between side markings, or head pattern. I like the white that travels up the sides of the animal and the coloring that results between the white sides and black spine. Though I don't really look at percentages of color or how level the white/color border is. (These are all terrible descriptions, I know, sorry) What do you look for in a spider?

Long story still long I guess, I say reliable based on how obviously not normal they are. Where as a Ghi can be REALLY COOL or a funny looking normal, I think spiders always look like spiders.

Technically no, it's not possible to produce ONLY top-shelf animals 100% of the time. The reason is that it takes 2 to reproduce, and both animals pass on their traits. If you're looking to buy 1 good looking male to pair with all your females, you may reproduce a male that looks just as good, but the babies will also inherit traits from each mother, going further away from your desired traits. What you're looking for is impossible.

About the lines topic, you're assuming that all the breeders I mentioned line-breed for specific traits to refine the gene that I really like of theirs. That's just not the case. In fact, I only know of a few breeders who line-breed to enhance a gene - Justin Kobylka, NERD, and brian gundy. I'm sure there are others, but the folks I mentioned don't simply line-breed for their good stuff. They kust buy quality parents for their breeding stock, and consistently produce quality babies. Again, they can produce a brownish pastel, or a spotty enchi, but we're going for consistency. 100% would be fantastic - unfortunately that result is just that... fantasy lol.

For spiders, I look at the overall color, pattern, white sides, and head pattern. There are dark dark brown spiders, and very high gold spiders. There are spiders with a single dorsal stripe, and spiders with race tracks (almost pin-like), and spiders with a mix. There are low-no white spiders, and high whites. There are also some head patterns that have proven genetic. I forget who, but someone on this forum had a spider with a cool skull-like head pattern, and its babies had the same thing! Jimmy Ma's clowns seem to have a sweet sword-like shape on their heads, and so did their father!

My final suggestion for you is to just buy morphs that display traits that best exemplify the gene, as well as any other traits that you favor. Then determine your pairings by looking at what trait best complements each other. You won't be disappointed with the babies :D. I'm sure not!

As far as spiders go. They are amazing. My boyfriends bumblebee was father to three clutches. All three different girls. One was a pastel. Another was a somewhat reduce normal. And the last was my pinstripe girl. Now not all these are super reduce. Actually I don't think any of them really have reduce patterns. But I feel like every baby spider we got was either really reduce or close to it. They all have super cool head patterns too. I love the recent ones that came from my pinstripe girl. They are lovely examples. And I can't wait to see them eat and grow.

Here's the daddy if you want an example of him

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14...7e634bb570.jpg

And here are some of his baby spiders.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14...6dbd18275b.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14...0f277e7beb.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14...01b56b6506.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14...b10eba3acd.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14...586badbad0.jpg

I believe these to be very good examples. But that is if you like a reduce pattern, opposed to a busy one. I think a spider would be a great addition of you choose that one


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I love spiders and pins also the pattern just gives them a look that cant be topped i have 1 spider and 1 spider mojo and am picking up a pin next week i will make some spinners or jigsaws i hope soon

Some great advice is always helpful along with some great pictures .


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