Is this a het red pastel?

She's about 3 months old, and 88 grams, and a little less than 20". I bought her last weekend at a reptile show from a smaller? breeder (50 snakes). He told me her parents were a Male Gargoyle and Female Pewter, and that she's a "Het Red x Pastel".


1. I've searched on the internet a little and while I see quite a few "het red" combinations, none of them are "het red pastel". (e.g. on worldofballpythons.com). That troubles me a little. Is this a valid combo? Most seem to have Axanthic in the name.
2. Mainly, what kind of morph is she?
3. I bought her mostly for a pet, but I'm also curious if she'd make a good breeding snake based on the combinations she could produce.

thanks!

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-2...001_213932.jpg
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-C...001_214016.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-S...002_083429.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-3...001_214027.jpg
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-x...002_083610.jpg
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-x...002_083329.jpg

Het. Red and Het. Red Axanthic are the same thing.
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...anthic-pastel/

According to what you said the parents are.......... There is no het red in that mix.
Pastel yes but het red no.
Who was the breeder?

Im thinking black pewter but not positive.
Still would like to know how the het red got mentioned or in the mix.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

According to what you said the parents are.......... There is no het red in that mix.
Pastel yes but het red no.
Who was the breeder?

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I believe some people just label like looking animals as gargoyle. Isn't the onyx black pastel x het. red and essentially the same in appearance. I believe cinnie x het red, and cinnie x green pastel all produce a "gargoyle" type animal.

The two differences I see with the het red axanthic pastel is a) her yellow spots are not very yellow, much more muted, closer to monochromatic. b) those seem to have a the unbroken back where she has quite a bit of spotting across the back.

Some of the black pewter pics do look like the closest I've seen, like this one:
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/files/morphs/black-pewter/004.jpg
Though she does have a reddish tone.

Regarding no "het red" in genes, I was thinking the same thing based on the morph calculator: http://www.worldofballpythons.com/wi...4&female=40,32

The breeder is Klayton Mai, a part-time guy in Dallas: https://www.facebook.com/cagedconstrictors
Should I follow-up with him and ask where the het-red came from, and maybe what the parents of the supposed Gargoyle were?

Guys thanks for helping figuring this out.

I would ask the breeder. Yes
I have seen too many people hatch clutches and the go to google looking for stuff that looks close to whats in the egg.

Edit....... If the male was the garg he has on his FB page Im kind of torn on it.
Could be a cinny X red but in his clutchs that he shows he doesnt show any cinnys at all but does have black pewters.

I know Im repeating some of whats been said, but Ill still throw in my $0.02.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jplehmann

She's about 3 months old, and 88 grams, and a little less than 20". I bought her last weekend at a reptile show from a smaller? breeder (50 snakes). He told me her parents were a Male Gargoyle and Female Pewter, and that she's a "Het Red x Pastel".


1. I've searched on the internet a little and while I see quite a few "het red" combinations, none of them are "het red pastel". (e.g. on worldofballpythons.com). That troubles me a little. Is this a valid combo? Most seem to have Axanthic in the name. Het red and het red axanthic are the same thing. Its like people referring to their morphs as a bee instead of a bumblebee or a pied instead of piebald.

2. Mainly, what kind of morph is she? She looks exactly like a pastel het red axanthic to me. You get a bit of that rusty color with pastel het reds a lot. I dont see anything that says pewter or black pewter.

3. I bought her mostly for a pet, but I'm also curious if she'd make a good breeding snake based on the combinations she could produce. I would say so. There are still a lot of het red axanthic combos to make. Id give her a little time to see how the pastel gene in her holds up. Pastel genes really take a hit from het red genes, so you should expect that she will be a darker snake.

thanks!

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Ill also add (coming from my limited experience buying, breeding and producing het red combos), that the two names being commonly used are gargoyle for cinnamon x het red combos and onyx for black pastel het red combos. I have very rarely seen a cinnamon x het red labelled as "cinnamon het red" and I have NEVER seen a lace black back x black pastel being labeled as a "gargoyle". All the gargoyles Ive seen for sale have been cinnamon x het red. Until today I didnt even know WOBP had a gargoyle labeled as something other than a cinnamon het red!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aalomon

Until today I didnt even know WOBP had a gargoyle labeled as something other than a cinnamon het red!

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This has always been my complaint in our world. Everyone wants to make a name for themselves so they wind up with names that cause problems like this.

Personally I dont think "making a name for yourself" has anything to do with what happened with gargoyles. I just think there was a general mix up somewhere. Lace black back is not a common gene at all compared to cinnamons, and I think youd be hard pressed to tell the difference between a lace black back combo vs a cinnamon combo.

Based on what I've seen, Gargoyles are het Red x Cinny/Black Pastel (same thing). And based on the pictures provided, I am definitely seeing Pastel Het Red, not Pewter, not just Pastel.

Some people like to say otherwise, but to me Cinny's and Black Pastel's are the same exact snake. It's the quality of the animal that varies.

Thanks aalomon, and others, as the confusion over "gargoyle" turned out to be the issue. With clarification, the parents of my snake are:
Male black pastel x het red (the so called "gargoyle") and female cinnie x pastel (pewter).

WOBP calls the male an "onyx ball" rather. http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/onyx-ball/

Now the het red pastel labeling makes sense. Here were the possibilities.
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/wi...5&female=40,32

He says red het expert Ben Renick helped make the classification. Looking at Renick's site, here's a picture of what he calls a red het pastel:
http://www.benrenick.com/collection....Pythons&id=508

And the first WOBP pic of a red het pastel looks like mine too:
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/fi...pastel/001.jpg

As aalomon pointed out, if mine has pastel, it's very muted.

@thesnakeeye, Looking at what she could be from the calculator, besides red het pastel the other option where pictures look similar is the black pewter, which you said you don't see. What differences help you distinguish between these two? Is it the reddishness?

These black pewter pics looks pretty similar:
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/fi...pewter/005.jpg
http://pythonregius.com/images/produ...Pewter14F1.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aalomon

Personally I dont think "making a name for yourself" has anything to do with what happened with gargoyles. I just think there was a general mix up somewhere. Lace black back is not a common gene at all compared to cinnamons, and I think youd be hard pressed to tell the difference between a lace black back combo vs a cinnamon combo.

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Its was meant as point one in the same. Look down all the "new" listings.
Then again is some type of description was required it might change a lot of things.

Cinny and Black Pastel = same thing

WOBP would disagree....

While extremely similar to the Cinnamon trait, Black Pastels are a separate lineage with the same manner of co-dominant inheritance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheSnakeEye

Based on what I've seen, Gargoyles are het Red x Cinny/Black Pastel (same thing). And based on the pictures provided, I am definitely seeing Pastel Het Red, not Pewter, not just Pastel.

Some people like to say otherwise, but to me Cinny's and Black Pastel's are the same exact snake. It's the quality of the animal that varies.

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Look at super cinny vs super black pastel as adults, they are not the same thing, they however are allelic, but still different like mystic and mojave

black pastel, cinny, het red are all proven allelic.

I'm not even sure what got bred, but people need to under stand this:

Male:	Gargoyle
Female:	Normal
Percent	Fraction	Traits
50%	1/2	Het Red Axanthic
50%	1/2	Cinnamon
View Results Page

so forget all those wobp results lol.

Edit: Just saw the parents, here are your possibilities:

Male:	Onyx
Female:	Pewter
Percent	Fraction	Traits
12.5%	1/8	Pastel, Het Red Axanthic
12.5%	1/8	Het Red Axanthic
12.5%	1/8	Het Red Axanthic, Pewter
12.5%	1/8	Gargoyle
12.5%	1/8	Black Pewter
12.5%	1/8	Black Pastel
12.5%	1/8	Black Pastel, Pewter
12.5%	1/8	8 Ball
View Results Page

WoW....... Just wow.
So the general consensus is WOBP is wrong on their original gargoyle?
Then the great question is: How to prove who to trust?

WOBP has had more than one mistake, I think its a very good guideline but it is not 100% accurate. Just look at the candino. The morph calculator on the site says that candy x albino = 100% double het candy and albino and on the candino page it says that its a double recessive. Like with any internet page, use some common sense. Remember that its a website, not a Bible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aalomon

WOBP has had more than one mistake, I think its a very good guideline but it is not 100% accurate. Just look at the candino. The morph calculator on the site says that candy x albino = 100% double het candy and albino and on the candino page it says that its a double recessive. Like with any internet page, use some common sense. Remember that its a website, not a Bible.

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Yup, I think my favorite is them changing the names of killer blast and super blast and saying NERD created them first. http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/killer-blast/
because NERD didn't have BHB as the creator on their own page back at the time either: https://web.archive.org/web/20110827...ast-super.html

As for het red, this thread discusses the subject http://www.reptileradio.net/ball-pyt...utation-3.html and I have also confirmed this with other breeders first hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aalomon

Like with any internet page, use some common sense. Remember that its a website, not a Bible.

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I understand, anything written by man can have flaws, however WOBP is the first most all of us turn to.
On the "common sense" side I always go looking for morphs I am not familiar with to see what makes it.
Yes, this time it might have made me look a little stupid and that doesn't bother me.
When you google it there are more than a handful of "gargoyle" combinations.