My new Enchi PH pied hasn't flicked tongue once

I recently won an Enchi PH Piebald
male in an auction and he just got
here the other day, I'm blown away
by how much I love him but notice
that he hasn't once flicked his tongue
out. I have him at another end of the
house away from where my female
regular ball python is kept, I'm a herp
noob and my first thought is he's just
shocked from being shipped all from
Florida, but I've read explicitly that
not flicking of the tongue is the sure
fire sign of active respiratory infection.

I've also read that the way to check is
to squeeze on their head to see if puss
or bubbles come out of his nose, and
with caution that any snake won't like
it ahaha, my boy is shy and I don't feel
like squeezing all up on him as my intro!

Basically before I have both of my snakes
taken in for their first introductory checkups,
are there any other viable reasons a snake
could not be flicking it's tongue out at all??

RustlewoodReptiles

You dont need to squeeze his head. You should be able to hear labored breathing, see mucus or stringy saliva, and see him keep his head point up if he has an RI.

I say check him out and hold him close to your ear. You should be able to hear if he is sick.

Why are you getting vet checks? Snakes are not like dogs that need shots. If your snakes are not wild caught and came from reputable people I would say its a waste of money.

Thank you very much
for your reply KMG!!!
He shows no signs of
RI whatsoever except
the absence of flicking.

I'm going to handle him
right now and hold close
to my ear, he doesn't
seem to be holding up
his head at all. And by
vet I meant some kind
of vet office with a herp
specialist and hear word
of a very good reptile vet
out in Steamboat Island
which is close to myself.

My regular female ball
was wheezing when I got
her, but when dialed into
a proper temp & humidity
she stopped doing it. Pet
store jipped me with her
in a way because she was
sold to me as a Spotnose,
she has the spots on her
nose but no head pattern
and busy greyish sides etc.
I was not as versed in ball
morphs at the time and I
bought her on an excited
whim which I would regret
if she wasn't an amazingly
tame snake that I really love.
I was also told she was a
het. Scaleless because she
had preshed from last shed
still on her head, I knew it
was absolutely bull but
I should have taken it as
a warning sign not to buy
from that petstore... I just
hope I didn't get ripped off
in the same way by getting
sold a purposely ill animal!!

As much as I can regret &
regret & wish I waited for
the reptile show coming up
in October here, but I gave
in and COULD NOT WAIT I
wanted a ball too bad.. but
I do have a Mojave Spinner
coming in the mail from TX
via a reputable breeder and
I'm very excited for him to
show up!!! I'm sure he will
be my first issue free, stress
free ball python. I feel like
I've been getting ripped off
left and right recently, but
need to learn to not want
to jump on deals by a whim!!

We live and learn, and am in
a small way glad I learned 1st
hand that pet stores will lie to
you and have bad husbandry
and some deals way be too
good to be true...feels good
to be wiser about this to avoid
whatever questionable deals
I may encounter in the future..

RustlewoodReptiles

People can suck sometimes. My gtp was sold to me with a RI. The guy wouldnt even talk to me and instead made his wife text me and just play dumb. Over $300 later my boy was better and now he lives as he should. Good luck.

Oh wow...lol..well as far as my female
regular goes, if it turns out she's a 'he',
then I will be pretty upset with the store
because I'm kind of so/so about her not
being a Spotnose, but I'm thinking that
the petstore owner's provider lied to them;
but then again the owner told me she was
Het. Scaleless which even I uneducated of
morphs knew was BS at the time told..
She may be a regular, but she's a very
amazing snake and a striking regular IMO.
But if it's a male then that ruins my plans.

Like I'm confident she's a female but then
again I was told she was a Scaleless Head
Spotnose combo...I just don't want to make
my snakes dislike me from expressing their
pings or whatever, I'd rather them dislike
someone else for doing that and other stuff!

Here is my update now... I took him out in
the sun handling him, which he seems to be
liking a lot more now in the short time I've
been working with him, and I still could not
hear any labored breathing or mushy wheeze
of any sort. Suddenly, he starts slowly flicking!
And by slow, it just barely pokes out at first,
and very very shortly like his tongue is extra
short or the action is just really laboring to him.
Eventually, he starts doing it a bit more though
with a little more strength and sometimes out
farther than before. So what I'm wondering now
is if there are any issues or deformities that might
be the cause of this, or if this is still having to do
with RI or similar illness. I'm very glad he forked
out a bit even though his tongue seems either
really small or just super laboring for him to do
for some reason I don't know of yet at this time.

RustlewoodReptiles

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RustlewoodReptiles

and sometimes out
farther than before. So what I'm wondering now
is if there are any issues or deformities that might
be the cause of this, or if this is still having to do
with RI or similar illness.

---

He probably thinks if he flicks his tongue in and out too much you're gonna notice the movement and eat him.

That's a good guess..
there's just something
that's labored about
the ability to flicker in
itself that's worrying
me..and the eventual
consistency of it like
he's trying to but there's
a problem with doing it.

I talked to the place
I won him from and
they said they have
over 1000 snakes so
were not able to inspect
him as closely as I have,
and that none of their
animals have RI and
it's not of any concern.
They then asked if I've
fed him yet and I replied
No along with asking what
day of the week he usually
fed and I haven't a response
yet.. but I do feel better
pertaining to his collection.

Basically if there is an issue
I wouldn't have a problem
spending 300 dollars on my
male because I feel like he's
worth more than that and I
got him for a STEAL imo (85
shipped), I mean just an Enchi
is usually much more but PH
Piebald? I love both genes &
Enchi experts have told me EW
at his excessive spots and '0/10'
things like that, but I love him
so much and the bronze leaks
under the spots too which I like.

Besides regardless of my male's
appearance, I'll be able to select
Enchi's to my hearts content and
if he proves out Piebald I'm lividly
excited for everything about life.

RustlewoodReptiles

In short, it may be Inclusion Body
Disease according to my vet and
he's being mailed to a professional
for testing to be done. My life has
been terrible for the past three days
now. I don't know what to do now.

RustlewoodReptiles

making a new line every 5 words makes it very difficult to read.

But I wouldn't ship the snake anywhere and would talk to someone educated in reptile diseases, Skiploader (his account name on here) is one that instantly comes to mind. If you google "tongue flicking snake disease" you can see IBD is in a few of the results, if you google a lot of symptoms snake have, IBD pops up. it has a ton of symptoms, so many people misdiagnosis it. I wish I knew more in reptile illnesses but the rest of the conversation you need to have is with someone more educated than me.

I hope I can help a bit, I've produced a good amount of ball pythons throughout the years I had a couple an Ivory and Cinny one year that would not flip their tongue much like your saying. I believe the Ivory developed with a short tongue this happens, that same Ivory is in my Buddy's collection and is now 4 years old and a crazy Breeder. Now the Cinny was just a nervous Ball wouldn't flick her tongue while I was around that snake is also thriving in another collection.

I believe you might be jumping the gun a bit on it being sick especially with the vet automatically bringing IBD into the conversation. Feed the enchi and go from there.

He doesn't feed, like not interested
& doesn't strike or constrict well....
I have his separate mouse he couldnt
eat in it's own tub away from the other
mice just in case he does eventually.

It's being shipped to this professional
free of charge it's what the breeder is
willing to do for me. I REALLY HOPE
he just has a gimpy short tongue and that
he tests negative for any virus...aaaaaaaa

RustlewoodReptiles

I got your PM... and found this thread.

I don't know where to begin.

Squeezing the head - you should nut punch the idiot who told you that. Stupidest thing I've heard in awhile.

Shipping the snake out for testing. Second stupidest thing I've heard in awhile. If it is IBD (which I doubt) a simple blood test could be done by the vet. Shipping the snake out again (after just arriving to your house) would do nothing but stress the damn thing.

Any vet who suspects IBD based on a lack of tongue flicking and not eating immediately after being shipped and placed in a new environment should stick to peddling Science Diet and expressing the anal glands of inbred poodles.

Leave your snake alone for a week. Make sure it's husbandry parameters are dialed in and do not touch that animal. Make sure it's in a quiet place with minimal foot traffic. Do not attempt to feed it. Do not handle it. Do not look at it. Check it only the bare minimum times you need to in order to insure it's husbandry parameters are being met.

Just for shibs and giggles, what temp are you keeping it at? What is your set up like?

FWIW, a lack of tongue flicking can be associated with just about any disease - including no disease at all. It can be associated with stress. So can extensive tongue flicking. Rule out the easy things first. Dial his stress to zero. That means no vet (unless he actually shows signs of being sick), no holding, no loud vibrations and a secure environment with correct husbandry parameters.

He's in a tub with two hides, a water
dish, sphagnum moss, and an average
temp of 82-84 with the hotspot on 88-90.
The room he's in has little to no traffic.
And she didn't base the IBD on his tongue,
but his lethargic reaction of coiling his tail
and the ability to be able to hold his weight
while attempting his curl his tail around her
finger. And it just seems like an abnormally
small tongue to me. Either way I'm still not
pleased with my animal, being alarmed day 1.

Everything hasn't been swell for weeks okay?
This is just a festering cherry on top of it all

RustlewoodReptiles

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RustlewoodReptiles

He's in a tub with two hides, a water
dish, sphagnum moss, and an average
temp of 82-84 with the hotspot on 88-90.
The room he's in has little to no traffic.
And she didn't base the IBD on his tongue,
but his lethargic reaction of coiling his tail
and the ability to be able to hold his weight
while attempting his curl his tail around her
finger. And it just seems like an abnormally
small tongue to me. Either way I'm still not
pleased with my animal, being alarmed day 1.

Everything hasn't been swell for weeks okay?
This is just a festering cherry on top of it all

RustlewoodReptiles

---

Again, those symptoms could be anything - here's a brief list:

Osteomyelitis caused by bacterial infection
Viruses caused by OPMV, herpes virus, ranaviruses reoviruses, adenoviruses, flaviviruses, picornaviruses, caliciviruses, etc, etc.
Crypto
Mycotic gastroenteritis
Bacterial infections involving pseudomonas, aeromonas, citrobacter, klebsiella, enterobacter, salmonella, etc.

Any vet that jumps to the IBD conclusion is showing nothing but a lack of experience. Your snake is showing general symptoms which could be associated with any disease or conversely - not at all. A communal brainwashing of the snakey community leads people to blurt out "IBD" the second a python or a boa shows signs of distress.

Considering you just got him last week, and he's been to a vet and handled and what not, I'd give him a chance to de-stress before he's shipped, prodded or poked.

Now if it was me, I would send the snake back to the breeder and get a refund. Hopefully, on the off chance it is sick, you have followed proper protocol procedures and have protected the rest of your collection. I would not send him anywhere unless you are sending him back and relinquishing ownership.

If however you do keep him, isolate him, practice proper QT practices and see if de-stressing him works. If he dies, refrigerate the corpse and ask the breeder to pay for the necropsy.

There is no need to stress your new BP by shipping it anywhere. Your local vet can draw a blood sample and ship it overnight to Univ of Florida for testing. He will need to follow the instructions in the second link.

http://labs.vetmed.ufl.edu/sample-re...ions/boid-ibd/

http://labs.vetmed.ufl.edu/sample-re...ed-infections/

I've had him separated since Day 1 because
he was very suspicious...it's the breeder who
is offering to have him tested since I'm already
financially ruined from this situation. I'm way
too stressed out I can't handle it at all really.
I don't know what else I can even add at this
point, I'm completely tapped out mentally and
financially along with emotionally. I'm loosing
it, in short. My regular female & Mojave Spinner
boy are safe, but if I loose my marbles someone
else might have to take care of them for a while
which I'm extremely afraid of at this point. It
doesn't seem like anything is leaning towards me
in a positive way at the moment and I'm done.