Expert advice for a new Ball Python owner

My son has loved all snakes and reptiles since he was able to walk. After months of research we decided to purchase him a Bumble Bee Baby Ball Python for his 10th Birthday. We definitely didnt go into this blind, however after reading several threads, I'm second guessing on the heat pad we attached to the bottom of the tank. I'm concerned that if we are not monitoring it every hour, it may get to hot and potentially burn the snake. Is their anything I can purchase that will monitor this hearing pad for us and keep the temp at a suitable level? We have a large tank for him (38X18x16) which I know is not preferred. However we have 2 hides (one on the cooler end and one on the hotter end) just to ensure he doesn't feel overwhelmed in his new tank. When we brought him home we tried hard to leave him alone and allow him time to get settled in. He needed to be feed the next day so we handled him for a bit, popped him into his feeding tank with a hopper, and an hour later went to check on him. Success!! He had eaten the mouse!! We put him back into his "home tank" and again are trying to give him some time to get settled in. This is a bit hard with my 10 year old son who is DYING to play with his new snake. Is their a rule to when not handle your new snake? How long should we give him to settle in? I want him to be handled a lot so he's comfortable with it and is use to it but I don't want to make him nervous. Thoughts/suggestions? He seems pretty active for the most part. Going in and out of his hides and cruising around the tank (both horizontally and vertically) but I have read threads that this can be a sign that he may not be comfortable. It's just leaving us wishing we spoke "snake" as we only want the best for him. I'm sorry for rambling but I have a ton of questions that I'm hoping can be answered from all the amazing snake experts on this site. Thank you for reading :)

There are thermostats available online/from reptile shops. I use the Habistat Pulse but there are others out there, they are great as you can be sure that ur viv is at the right temperature. However the Habistats have a 1 in 3 fault rate in their units so ensure you monitor your thermostats for a good couple of weeks after buying it.

It is recommended not to handle your BP until they settle in which should take about 2 weeks or so. Most go off their food after a big move so it tends to be unusual for a BP to eat straight after getting it. DO NOT handle him for a few days after feeding as this could cause him to regurgitate his feed.

Excessive roaming is usually a sign of stress, BP suffer from anxiety and or agrophobia in large spaces which is why many people keep them in small rubs. In the wild they will often be found in a tiny hiding place, only coming out at night. It seems that his viv may be to large for him so go down a size, a BP only really needs a viv half - 2/3rds their length but babies will only tend to need small rubs.

I hope this helps :)

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Originally Posted by Tiffanie

My son has loved all snakes and reptiles since he was able to walk. After months of research we decided to purchase him a Bumble Bee Baby Ball Python for his 10th Birthday. We definitely didnt go into this blind, however after reading several threads, I'm second guessing on the heat pad we attached to the bottom of the tank. I'm concerned that if we are not monitoring it every hour, it may get to hot and potentially burn the snake. Is their anything I can purchase that will monitor this hearing pad for us and keep the temp at a suitable level?

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Yes, it's called a thermostat. There are a lot of threads with the pro's/con's of each if you search. A decent model for your application should run $30-50.

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We have a large tank for him (38X18x16) which I know is not preferred. However we have 2 hides (one on the cooler end and one on the hotter end) just to ensure he doesn't feel overwhelmed in his new tank. When we brought him home we tried hard to leave him alone and allow him time to get settled in. He needed to be feed the next day so we handled him for a bit, popped him into his feeding tank with a hopper, and an hour later went to check on him. Success!! He had eaten the mouse!! We put him back into his "home tank" and again are trying to give him some time to get settled in. This is a bit hard with my 10 year old son who is DYING to play with his new snake. Is their a rule to when not handle your new snake? How long should we give him to settle in? I want him to be handled a lot so he's comfortable with it and is use to it but I don't want to make him nervous. Thoughts/suggestions? He seems pretty active for the most part. Going in and out of his hides and cruising around the tank (both horizontally and vertically) but I have read threads that this can be a sign that he may not be comfortable. It's just leaving us wishing we spoke "snake" as we only want the best for him. I'm sorry for rambling but I have a ton of questions that I'm hoping can be answered from all the amazing snake experts on this site. Thank you for reading :)

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It's big but if you clutter it up with hides, fake greenery, or even crumpled newspaper to give your baby places to hide he'll be fine.

The bigger problem with tanks is maintaining humidity in them - we've found that covering them with Glad Press n Seal with a corner left uncovered on each side is a quick fix, or you can make a plexiglass top with a few ventilation holes for it.

Also try to get him on to rats ASAP, they are more nutritious than mice. This may take a few attempts because BP are known to be very fussy eaters! Do not worry if your BP does not feed for a few weeks either :D

My normal male was a rescue and the owner gave me the heatpad(stick on kind), she used it unregulated and I temped it out at 139 degrees.

Reptile basics just put out a nice relatively inexpensive thermostat called the hobby stat, looks pretty good and about 50 bucks( Im thinking about getting one).
Otherwise you can use a plug in dimmer switch from home depot(15.00) and a nice digital thermometer from walmart and put the probe on the inside glass over the heatpad, adjust till the temps are right. Dont skimp on the digital thermometer they are only 12.00.
You will still need to check the temps if you go with a dimmer once a day.I check mine every night. I use a dimmer on my taiwans and a reptile basics VE-200 with the others.

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Originally Posted by fcon

There are thermostats available online/from reptile shops. I use the Habistat Pulse but there are others out there, they are great as you can be sure that ur viv is at the right temperature. However the Habistats have a 1 in 3 fault rate in their units so ensure you monitor your thermostats for a good couple of weeks after buying it.

Good to know - Thanks for the pointer!

It is recommended not to handle your BP until they settle in which should take about 2 weeks or so. Most go off their food after a big move so it tends to be unusual for a BP to eat straight after getting it. DO NOT handle him for a few days after feeding as this could cause him to regurgitate his feed.

I guess we just lucked out with Boston (our Bumble Bee) because he ate that hopper no problem with in 24 hours of us having him :) We haven't handled him since his feeding last night. Today hes just been curled up (sleeping I think), in the corner of his tank, in open view outside his hides. Hoping that not a sign of something that Im missing. He looks pretty comfortable but then I get to second guessing myself and worrying about every little thing :/

Excessive roaming is usually a sign of stress, BP suffer from anxiety and or agrophobia in large spaces which is why many people keep them in small rubs. In the wild they will often be found in a tiny hiding place, only coming out at night. It seems that his viv may be to large for him so go down a size, a BP only really needs a viv half - 2/3rds their length but babies will only tend to need small rubs.

I didnt want to upgrade to different tanks so I figured I could get the one that would fit him as an adult. Rather then upgrading I was thinking that can add some decorations to fill it up a but more and hopefully not look so intimidating to him.

I hope this helps :)

Absolutely does! Thank you for the reply :)

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Originally Posted by fcon

Also try to get him on to rats ASAP, they are more nutritious than mice. This may take a few attempts because BP are known to be very fussy eaters! Do not worry if your BP does not feed for a few weeks either :D

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Rats... Really. Oyyy lol I was hoping to switch from live to frozen. Just reading up on it now. The pros and cons. Still trying to figure out what would be easier for us but still beneficial for Boston. If rats are better, guess i better move in that direction. Even tho it totally grosses me out :puke: lol

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Originally Posted by fcon

Also try to get him on to rats ASAP, they are more nutritious than mice.

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Negative.
Feed what your snake will eat.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Negative.
Feed what your snake will eat.

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Agreed, there is absolutely no evidence that rats are any more or less nutritious then mice. Feed your snake whatever it's willing to eat.

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Originally Posted by Miranda2

My normal male was a rescue and the owner gave me the heatpad(stick on kind), she used it unregulated and I temped it out at 139 degrees.

Reptile basics just put out a nice relatively inexpensive thermostat called the hobby stat, looks pretty good and about 50 bucks( Im thinking about getting one).
Otherwise you can use a plug in dimmer switch from home depot(15.00) and a nice digital thermometer from walmart and put the probe on the inside glass over the heatpad, adjust till the temps are right. Dont skimp on the digital thermometer they are only 12.00.
You will still need to check the temps if you go with a dimmer once a day.I check mine every night. I use a dimmer on my taiwans and a reptile basics VE-200 with the others.

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Great information!! Thank u so much :) online right now placing an order from reptile basics :) Just to make sure I got this right... I plug the VE200 into my subterranean heater. Then place the probe inside the tank on the heating pad. Does the probe have a wire that I have to run outside the tank? That may cause a but of an issue when trying to close the tank. Wireless would be awesome! Do they have those?

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Originally Posted by Tiffanie

Great information!! Thank u so much :) online right now placing an order from reptile basics :) Just to make sure I got this right... I plug the VE200 into my subterranean heater. Then place the probe inside the tank on the heating pad. Does the probe have a wire that I have to run outside the tank? That may cause a but of an issue when trying to close the tank. Wireless would be awesome! Do they have those?

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No, negative................
The probe goes between the UTH and the glass on the outside. Never inside.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Agreed, there is absolutely no evidence that rats are any more or less nutritious then mice. Feed your snake whatever it's willing to eat.

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Love threads for this purpose... You learn so much and get some great hints. Thanx!! I was hoping to switch him to frozen mice. Any suggestions for that transition? Also, one hopper one a week should continue until what age/size? Boston was born July 4th and has been eating live hopper move every week since hatch. Thank u again for the advice :)

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

No, negative................
The probe goes between the UTH and the glass on the outside. Never inside.

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That's not the best news as my heating pad is already stuck to the tank. Says on the packaging that its not to be removed. Hmmm ... Think I will screw up the pad by sticking this probe into it?

Probably. The other option would be to tape the brobe to the bottom of the UTH. You will not get as accurate of an internal temp but with the use of a no contact thermometer you can adjust to work.
A lot of people wont like yhis idea and I will tell you ...... What works in my house might not work in yours.
It has worked here.

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Originally Posted by Tiffanie

Love threads for this purpose... You learn so much and get some great hints. Thanx!! I was hoping to switch him to frozen mice. Any suggestions for that transition? Also, one hopper one a week should continue until what age/size? Boston was born July 4th and has been eating live hopper move every week since hatch. Thank u again for the advice :)

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You want to feed something that is about the same size as the widest part of the snake once a week. A good size meal will live a mild, but noticable lump in the belly. If you arent getting much of a lump then its time to move up. Most baby bps are able to eat full grown adult mice within a couple of months. This is the main reason the rat suggestion came up. Within a short period of time a single adult mouse will not be an adequate meal for you snake, and its just easier to feed a single appropriately sized rat once a week then 3 or 4 mice.

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Originally Posted by Tiffanie

That's not the best news as my heating pad is already stuck to the tank. Says on the packaging that its not to be removed. Hmmm ... Think I will screw up the pad by sticking this probe into it?

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I dont want to give bad advice, or second guess the manufacturers instructions. So I will just say thay ive taken them off and re applied them once or twice without issue, BUT im sure their is a reason the manufacturer doesnt recommend that. The only reason I bring it up is because itd be better to take it off to use a thermostat then leave it unregulated, or just stick the thermostat probe in the tank. You dont want the probe in the tank because the snake can and will knock it around, poop and pee on it, ect. You need a thermostat ASAP. Ive measured brand new UTHs In excess of 160 degrees Fahrenheit running unregulated. This is not a short or failed unit, that was the temperature the unit was designed to achieve when ran unregulated, which the manufacturers claim to be ok

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by Tiffanie

That's not the best news as my heating pad is already stuck to the tank. Says on the packaging that its not to be removed. Hmmm ... Think I will screw up the pad by sticking this probe into it?

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I made this mistake my first setup also. You can usually peel back a corner of the heating pad without damaging it, put the t-stat probe under the corner far enough to get a good reading, and then tape the pad back into place around the t-stat probe.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Negative.
Feed what your snake will eat.

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This is great advice, however when your BP is fully grown you will potentially be feeding him multiple mice per week which will cost £/$. Although BPs generally will eat rats some are very fussy and will just decide to prefer mice (some wont even eat mice). If you can it will be better and easier to get your young BP on to rats as early a poss to get them into habit of taking rats. I (and all the BP breeders I know) always feed rats from the beginning to try to eliminate the potential problems down the line.

Of course feed what the BP will take, however it is known that rats are more protein rich. Rats are obviously larger than mice and are known to have a higher fat content, with larger internal organs, it seems that young BP have mega (healthy) growth spurts once changed over to rats. However saying that, an adult mouse will be more calcium dense than a juvenile rat because it is fully grown, but if you are feeding calcium sups then this can be useless info. It is good to note that adult mice will have significantly higher calcium as well as phosphorus and magnesium levels. The young rat will however have greater zinc and iron levels than the adult mouse. But again...if you are supplementing your BP then this info is a complete waste of time LOL. Also it is good to note that the nutritional levels of Rat vs Mice is changed again depending on weather you feed live or frozen as freezing any kind of food will alter it nutritious value.

The argument of Rat vs Mice is a long and discussed subject and of course at the end of the day it falls down to what the BP prefers and if you as the owner will be ok at feeding multiple mice per week when you could just feed the one rat. (yes rats are more expensive but again it is up to the BP owner and each owner will need to weigh up the costs of where they can locate the rodents) Personally for me it is cheaper for me to feed the one rat per week and I like to handle my BP a couple of times a week so if you do feed your BP a couple times a week you are potentially limiting your time to handle it ... significantly.

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Originally Posted by fcon

I (and all the BP breeders I know) always feed rats from the beginning to try to eliminate the potential problems down the line.

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What problems do "we" as breeders that start all our hatchlings on hopper mice cause down the line?
Your statement that I would like an answer to.

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Originally Posted by fcon

Of course feed what the BP will take, however it is known that rats are more protein rich. Rats are obviously larger than mice and are known to have a higher fat content, with larger internal organs, it seems that young BP have mega (healthy) growth spurts once changed over to rats. However saying that, an adult mouse will be more calcium dense than a juvenile rat because it is fully grown, but if you are feeding calcium sups then this can be useless info. It is good to note that adult mice will have significantly higher calcium as well as phosphorus and magnesium levels. The young rat will however have greater zinc and iron levels than the adult mouse. But again...if you are supplementing your BP then this info is a complete waste of time LOL. Also it is good to note that the nutritional levels of Rat vs Mice is changed again depending on weather you feed live or frozen as freezing any kind of food will alter it nutritious value.

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You seem to forget that you have to break the values down to equal weights......
The only thing correct here is a slight loss in value from freezing.

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

What problems do "we" as breeders that start all our hatchlings on hopper mice cause down the line?
Your statement that I would like an answer to.


You seem to forget that you have to break the values down to equal weights......
The only thing correct here is a slight loss in value from freezing.

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I didnt say YOU or BREEDERS cause any problems down the line. Just that the BP may not take rats when adults.... again it depends on the BP owner if they want to feed multiple times a week or not.

If you research online you will come up with multiple cases of educational research in the nutritional aspects of rats and mice. But as I said in my previous post if the BP owner is supplementing their BP then all this nutritional info is worthless as the majority of there BP nutrition is coming from the sups.

:)

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Originally Posted by fcon

If you research online you will come up with multiple cases of educational research in the nutritional aspects of rats and mice. But as I said in my previous post if the BP owner is supplementing their BP then all this nutritional info is worthless as the majority of there BP nutrition is coming from the sups.

:)

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How exactly does one go about using supplements with a BP? Ive heard of such a thing, please enlighten me.



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you can dust the rodent or put sups in the BPs water. These are the methods I use. There are probably other ways.

I've seen the report on what each type of prey contains, but where's the report outlining the nutritional requirements of BP's? I'm not understanding how people are deciding what kind of supplements and how much of each supplement an animal should receive when the requirements of said animal are unknown.

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Originally Posted by fcon

you can dust the rodent or put sups in the BPs water. These are the methods I use. There are probably other ways.

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This is such utter nonsense. Their is no evidence to suggest any sort of dietary supplementation is neccicary or even a good idea. Ive been at this for a while now and have never heard of anyone actually doing this.

All we truly know about ball pythons's nutritional needs is this: a snake fed a diet of appropriately sized whole mammalian prey will thrive and live a very long time. Any other speculation on nutritional needs or diet is conjecture at best, or more likely completely made up nonsense.

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Originally Posted by CryHavoc17

How exactly does one go about using supplements with a BP? Ive heard of such a thing, please enlighten me.



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I thought supplements were more for lizards but I could be totally wrong. If anyone has experience with this please share! Thanks all!

The only supplement I've ever given a snake was ReptiBAC for a regurging boa to help get her gut flora re-established. Otherwise snakes shouldn't need a supplement.

I love the passion on here! its so....touching! everyone obviously do things differently!

Yeah sups generally are more used for lizards. I dust all my Chameleons food every other day but also dust my 18 BPs twice a month plus add water treatment with added calcium to my youngens to assist them.

Its not "utter nonsense" it is what I have done for years and what I have been taught to and what I have been advised to do in the past.

Congratulations on your new addition....If you are worried about possible damage to the pad you can always pick up some Flexwatt very cheap. I buy mine for $3.49 per ft. I am currently using 12"x12" Flexwatt for my tubs. You can hold it to the bottom of the tank with aluminum tape. Regulating is the same as the pad. If it ever malfunctions it's cheap to replace, and possibly easier to get off.
As for the food, we switched to F/T with my wife's BP right away. He wouldn't eat it at first but after a couple days of trying we had a brilliant strike. We currently feed him rat pups because someone told us it was easier for him to digest while he is this small. It's all here say but what could it hurt.

Oh yeah the same person told us that we should feed our corn snake one pinky at a time more often then a few at one time. He said it would possibly help him metabolize it better that way and help growth. I would assume if this is true that the same would be true for a BP.

You can get this thermostat http://www.ebay.com/itm/141177127278

A lot of people uses it because is not expensive like the other and it does a relly good job i used it for couple of years with my balls pythons and neer had a problem
And its agfordable

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Originally Posted by fLako0aGuiiLaR

You can get this thermostat http://www.ebay.com/itm/141177127278

A lot of people uses it because is not expensive like the other and it does a relly good job i used it for couple of years with my balls pythons and neer had a problem
And its agfordable

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Hydrofarm thermostats are fine and will get you by, I have several, but personally I prefer a proportional thermostat like this one http://www.reptilebasics.com/ve-200 They're more expensive but I think better quality.

In 15 years of breeding ball pythons through several generations and having produced over 1000 hatchlings, not once have I ever used any kind of suppliment for my snakes. I do not believe that it's necessary to suppliment when you feed whole prey items like rodents.

The majority of the hatchlings that I have produced were started off on live hopper mice, then adult mice (live or frozen depending on the individual) then switched to small rats when they were of a sufficient size. While it does happen that certain individuals can become fixated on a certain prey type, it's actually pretty rare in my experience. For those few individuals that refuse rats, I just feed them mice. They are perfectly healthy and trive on an all mouse diet as long as quantities by weight are sufficient. As was said before. 'Feed them what they're willing to eat'

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Originally Posted by MarkS

In 15 years of breeding ball pythons through several generations and having produced over 1000 hatchlings, not once have I ever used any kind of suppliment for my snakes. I do not believe that it's necessary to suppliment when you feed whole prey items like rodents.

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If you are a breeder im assuming you breed them to sell them
it would be cool if you leave your info for people interested in buying new BP
personally im looking to buy a new baby morph i would like to see yours:gj:
and your prices of course ;)

If I have anything to sell, it would be posted in the want ad section here -> http://ball-pythons.net/forums/forum...tion-or-Wanted which is the only place sales should be posted instead of on the main forums.

isn't the evidence that ball pythons grow a lot faster and thrive off of rats rather than mice?. obviously feed what the snake will eat. but that's what ive gotten from all my research

Actually some of the fastest growth rates are acheived by feeding smaller prey items more frequently (the goal being to have them constantly digesting something) I've heard of people getting incredible growth rates feeding mice every other day.

I have a couple that are over 1000g and mousers.
One of my pastel males just took a rat for the first time a couple weeks ago.
I feed what they will eat and as much as they want till I can figure out what they can keep in vs what they paint the walls with.

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Originally Posted by fcon

I didnt say YOU or BREEDERS cause any problems down the line. Just that the BP may not take rats when adults.... again it depends on the BP owner if they want to feed multiple times a week or not.

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I've never had a snake that didn't take rats a adults that started out as mousers. Never. And I've had quite a few. My founding females were raised on mice, because that was what was readily available. All of them converted to rats. A few were a little stubborn, but I was more stubborn. Once they switched, I never had a problem with them staying on rats. Nor have I had a problem switching a ball python started on ASF's or fed ASF's as their primary diet to rats.

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Originally Posted by fcon

If you research online you will come up with multiple cases of educational research in the nutritional aspects of rats and mice. But as I said in my previous post if the BP owner is supplementing their BP then all this nutritional info is worthless as the majority of there BP nutrition is coming from the sups.

:)

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If you research online, you won't find any studies on the nutritional requirements of ball pythons. It could very well be that mice are nutritionally sound for the needs of ball pythons, and the additional nutritional values in rats are just overkill, and waste. Just like too much of certain vitamins and minerals can be bad for you. No one can unequivically say that rats are "better" for ball pythons than mice, and no keeper should be made to feel that they are not caring for their animal properly if they feed mice rather than rats.

From a convenience point of view, rats would be more a more efficient way to feed for the keeper than mice (one prey item per feeding vs multiple prey items per feeding). But there's no scientific evidence that rats are "better" for your snake than mice, since no one has done a study on the nutritional requirements (amount of protein, etc) for a ball python (or any other snake that I'm aware of, for that matter).

I'm curious though - what supplements would anyone be giving their ball python, given that we don't know what needs to be supplemented? I certainly don't supplement. :confusd: