Hardly eating, now trying to escape? What are you trying to tell me, snake?!

WOO GET READY FOR A WALL OF TEXT!

My ball python came out of a nine-month long fast in May... It was a nightmare. I tried everything but live food to get her to eat.

Long story short, she started eating again!... but it hasn't been very regular eating. She'll only eat once or twice a month at most. Small rats, even though at her size she should probably be eating mediums.

And now she's trying to escape every night. For nearly three weeks now, she pushes her nose at the door for 5 hours every night. I thought it was because she was hungry, but she keeps flat out refusing food. She ignores it completely and focuses on trying to escape. She does the same escaping antics any time i take her out or spot clean. Me being in her cage just sets her into escape mode lately. She's acting like somethings wrong with the husbandry, but for the life of me I can't figure out what it is :(.

The only thing that has changed since she started trying to escape is that I did a full cage cleaning three weeks ago. That... shouldn't have upset her this much... Perhaps because we have a cat? Maybe cat hair got in there when i was cleaning and she smells it? These are the best things i've come up with :B.

Here are pictures of her and the enclosure.

• The enclosure is 36"x24"x12", made of PVC.
• Humidity generally stays around 50%-60%. I'll spray once a day in the morning to keep it at that level. It'll get to 40% at the absolute lowest.
• Temperatures are 91-89 on the belly-level of the hot side, 80-82 on the cool side's belly-level, and for ambient 86-82 for ambient depending on where you are in the cage.
• The enclosure is heated by a UTH for belly heat and a ceramic heating element. Both are maintained by dimming thermostat. She generally avoids the hot side, though. Always has. She almost always stays in the two cooler hides.
• She has four hides in total, each one has a 2-5 degree difference from one another. One of these hides is also a humid hide, and additionally she has a bowl big enough to soak in (though i've never once seen her soak).

Feeding notes for this year (All rats are f/t from a local rat farm.)

• May 4th - Broke 9-month fast! Ate small rat
• May 10th - Ate small rat
• May 16th - Ate small rat
• May 24th - Did not eat. Small rat offered. Moving up to medium.
• May 30th - Did not eat. Medium offered.
• June 7th - Did not eat. Small rat. Acted extremely interested in food but eventually turned away.
• June 20th - Ate small rat
• June 30th - Did not eat. Small rat offered. Close but she eventually passed on it.
• August 4th - Ate small rat
• August 11th - Was in shed. Food not offered
• August 19th - Did not eat. Intent on escaping. Small rat offered.
• August 24th - Did not eat. Intent on escaping. Small rat offered.

Weights for this year

• Jan 1650g
• Feb 1600g
• Mar 1568g
• Apr 1532g (1450 by vet visit end of april)
• May 1605g (Started eating again!)
• June 1580g
• July 1559g
• Aug 1703g

TLDR: Ball python is very picky about eating, and now is trying to escape at night. I can't figure out what i'm doing wrong, or if i'm just over reacting and this is normal.

Thank you guys for any suggestions. :<

Is that UTH on the inside of her enclosure or are the pictures playing tricks on me?

Also, have you read these recent feeding articles?

• http://jkrballstreetjournal.com/2014...-eating-again/
• http://ballpythonbreeder.com/2014/08...thon-appetite/

Both are excellent places to start when trying to figure out the problem feeder puzzle. Good luck!

My ball python pushes her nose up to the screen every time I put her back in her terrarium. All she wants to do is come back out, though. She's a spoiled brat. :P

Looks to me like it is too, guess we'll wait for them to answer :confusd:

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Is that UTH on the inside of her enclosure or are the pictures playing tricks on me?

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It's in the enclosure. It's possible to waterproof the connections but it's kind of a PITA.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bcr229

It's in the enclosure. It's possible to waterproof the connections but it's kind of a PITA.

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That's where my thinking was going. If the connections are accessible from the inside and they aren't entirely waterproof then that could cause behavioral changes (among other things, of course).

Sometimes, there really isn't an explanation for their behavior. That is blasphemy I know, but it can be true. Is it possible you could move her enclosure up higher or down lower? I had one big female, she leaned on her tub sides so hard she bent the tub and escaped regularly. I gave her two new tubs, and she did the same thing to both of them. I was ready to kill her. Moved her tub from waist height to knee height, no more escape attempts.

I still have no idea why she suddenly hated where her tub was, or why lowering it 12" made such a difference, but it did. It might be worth trying in your case. You may have even changed something when you cleaned. You may not know it, but she may sense it and that is why she's trying to escape. Believe me, these guys are experts at finding weakness in their enclosure and exploiting it.

I hope you can figure out what is wrong. Or at least, figure out how to make her stop her obsessive behavior.

Gale

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eric Alan

Is that UTH on the inside of her enclosure or are the pictures playing tricks on me?

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Yes, the UTH is on the inside. I couldn't get it to do much on the outside...
It never occurred to me that could possibly effect her behavior (or, you know, shock her if she pee'd on the connection point). I feel like an idiot. Why didn't I ever think of that :(?! I'm going to switch it to being on the outside for a while. Hopefully it'll be up to snuff

Quote:

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Originally Posted by angllady2

Sometimes, there really isn't an explanation for their behavior. That is blasphemy I know, but it can be true.

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Ha. Could be! Interesting that moving the tub kicked it into gear for yours. I can't really raise the enclosure since it's a big PVC thing... I tried covering the door last night and she stopped her escape attempts. I noticed her on top of her hides this morning, and into the evening. I think she feels safe resting on top of her hides as long as i cover the window door. It's been 85 today and she's a complete princess about her temps and hates it even remotely near 90.

Update, since it's been a few days.

I moved the UTH out of her enclosure.
I also turned down the temps so the hot side is now 88 instead of 90. The weather has cooled down, so the cool side of her cage is now 80, instead of 83-83 like it was a few days ago.
I also covered her cage window with a cloth.

She's still trying to escape at night. It's not as the almost frantic mash-my-face-against-the-door-and-push that it was before, but she's still nosing around every night looking in every corner.

She's also now sleeping on top of her hides during the day. I actually haven't seen her in her hides in days. No idea why she's doing this. Maybe with the cloth she feels secure enough to not use a hide? Maybe she feels it's too hot in the hides? Any ideas?

Haven't tried feeding her yet. I'd like to wait for her behavior to normalize if i can..

Sigh. It's been nearly two weeks. She's still doing it.

I've tried cluttering the floor to make her feel safe, dropping the temps... She's still avoiding her hides and nothing stops her from trying to escape every night... She's dropping weight fast because of all the activity and no eating... No idea what to do... Getting pretty bummed out about it.

If anyone has any ideas before I take her to the vet... I'd really appreciate the help.

A lot of BPs tend to roam at night - that part is perfectly normal.

From your chart it looks like her weight is fine and it's only been a month since she ate last - that part is perfectly normal.

Some snakes use their hides and others do not - that part is perfectly normal.

Am I missing something? Why are you bummed? What part of any of this makes you think she needs to see a vet?

:confusd:

She got off a 9-month fast earlier this year and has only gotten seven meals in her since then.

This behavior is completely unusual for her. She always uses her hides, she never desperately mashes her face in the corners trying to escape for hours. Her weight dropped significantly more than normal during this three-week nightly bouts of desperate escape attempts.

I was hoping the vet would have some answers as to why her behavior took such a drastic turn, since the internet hasn't been able to tell me anything.

If you feel you need to see a vet, just make sure that they're a reliable herp vet (maybe other members can recommend one in your area). The last thing you want is a vet without knowledge of BPs to diagnose something that isn't there and stress your snake out to the point where it becomes sick.

Try live...

It's been two months, so I figured time for an update. I decided to take the internets advice and leave her alone and not fuss with her for awhile.

She still has not eaten, nor has she stopped her escape attempts. Her September weigh in was 1536g, and on October 1501g (in contrast to her August weight of 1703g)

Two weeks ago she stopped trying to escape!... for a while. It eventually was made apparent that she stopped because she was going into shed, and actually stayed on the warm side for five solid days as she went into blue. I sprayed her twice a day to keep the humidity above 60%. Despite the humidity, when she shed it was blasted into pieces. She got it all off okay. No damaged scales or stuck pieces. Makes me wonder why the shed was not perfect like previous ones though...

At any rate, now that she is done shedding we're back to how she used to be. Calm during the day, escape attempts at night. She is using her hides now, so at least we're back to normal there. She still shows zero interest in food. If she was at least looking at it and smelling it I would consider live to convince her to eat, but the fact she doesn't show a hint of interest like previous fasts makes me think food type is not the problem here.

So, here is my current battle strategy!

It seems to me, with no interest in food, textbook temps and humidity, coupled with constant escape attempts... must mean she feels unsafe in some way. Clearly my cluttering attempts and extra hides haven't convinced her she's safe, nor did leaving her alone for two solid months. People always like to say ball pythons prefer cramped quarters, so I'm just gunna put that to the test. I plan on getting a 28qt tub and placing her in that, instead of her nice fancy 3"x2" cage she apparently hates.
If a snug tub does not get her eating again, I will try to find a snake specialist to get blood work done to see if she has some sort of illness causing this behavior. The last vet I tried failed to draw blood and didn't seem to know much about ball pythons so i'm not inclined to go back there...

If anyone has any critiques or suggestions on that battle plan, let me know!

If neither of those things work I don't know what i'll do. Probably run screaming naked into the woods, finally driven to madness. If you don't hear any more updates, you know what happened.

Went to the exotic vet.

They said my husbandry checks out... They did suggest a UVB light for her, and said that it may help her appetite again. Not completely sold on that but hell at this point sure i'll try crazy stuff. Vet gave her a vitamin shot and drew blood to run tests on. Bloodwork came back clean, so at least that has been ruled out.

Vet said to attempt feeding the following day, with a mouse or very young rat since her usually food is a medium or small rat. Feeding attempt did not work. She just attempted to escape the cage. The fact that she's still trying to escape so regularly seems like it's related to her fasting, but I can't find out why she's doing it... I mentioned it to the vet and they didn't address it at all. The vet now wants to give her another vitamin shot, and force feed her a pinkie... I feel kinda uneasy about this... She's certainly skinny but not nearly emaciated, but maybe they want to get something in her to run a fecal? I don't know... Vets know more than me, i'm trying to trust them.

Should we go through with the force feeding? Does that feel weird to anyone else?

Any help or advice is appreciated...

Maybe this is dumb, but have you thought about actually letting her out of the cage and seeing where it is she wants to go? Letting her "escape" and monitor her location to see where she ends up? I'd even try feeding her once she's ended up somewhere. I dunno, maybe it's silly, but I'd be open for anything after your ordeal. I really hope you get something figured out, talk about frustration.

That's actually a really good idea... Seriously. I'm going to try it next time she does the crazy i-must-escape night behavior. Thank you for that idea!

She's been pretty chill the last three nights. I'm wondering if that vitamin shot kicked in and she's feeling more normal. Hopefully~ If not, i'm trying you're suggestion, Spoons! :}

BP's do not need or benefit from UVB light.

I also would not force feed anything. It's stressful on the snake and yours knows how to eat.

Did the smaller enclosure (the tub) make any difference?


Molly & Steve
0.1 normal BP 'Precioucess'
0.1 BCI 'Luna'

I would try live. Most of my snakes are active at night, I think that's normal, but if she isn't eating....live would be the next step

Live live live. Do not force feed. One of my females dose the same thing she will eat frozen for a few month's the she will not look interested at all. I throw a live rat and boom nails it. You haven't tryed everything you can do if you havent tryed live. And correct me if im wrong but I wouldent get to worried about her 200g weight drop thats a little more than the average med rat....... and i wouldn't worry to much until she hit close to that 1000g mark

So, she's finally eating again! I'll sum up the events in case anyone else is going through this kinda thing in the future...

In december, she stopped her constant nosing at the door, but still wasn't eating and continued to show zero interest in food what so ever. Live. Frozen. Nothing. Vet insisted we force feed, and since she'd lost about 18% of her body weight at that point, I went with the vet's suggestion. She was force fed 2 pinkies. Vet said to wait one week and instead of giving her a medium rat like usual, the vet said to try a large mouse. Something smaller and different, she said, often spikes their interest again. So, one week later I tried it... and she didn't eat, but she was actually slightly interested in the meal for once. I waited another week. Offered a mouse. Nope again, but still a little interested. After that second "nope", I left her alone for two weeks.

After those two weeks, I try again with the large mouse... and she's interested again! Really interested!... but not striking. She looks, and edges up reeeeeal close, but does nothing. I dangled that mouse there for about ten minutes, and she didn't do anything but stare. I'm pretty fed up at this point so I leave the mouse in the cage with her for the night and go to bed. I'll throw it out in the morning.

When I wake up the mouse is gone. She ate it! I checked the whole cage. She definitely ate it!

Next feeding time, i try the overnight-sleep-over-dinner trick again. It worked!... Third feeding day and, well, actually, before the third feeding day i come home from work and she's giving me The Look. Head raised, neck tense in a striking pose, and she follows every movement. I thaw a mouse and offer it to her and she takes it in a second. She's acting extremely keen afterwards, so I give her a small rat and she takes that as well! WOO HOO, BACK IN BUSINESS!

Since then she's gone back to only eating her meals secretly over night. I'm only offering food to her now when she looks hungry, which seems to be roughly every two weeks. She's back on medium rats, but she seems to prefer smaller prey so once these are gone i'll get some smalls for her.

Hi there, my BP Jeffrey has been doing this exact thing but not just at night, daytime too!

It worries me because he's never missed a meal at 1.5 years old, and has always used his hides.

Did you ever solve this and find out exactly what it was? I also have textbook husbandry and his body is in perfect shape.