Subtle morphs and hets sold as normals?

Of course no breeder wants to mix snakes up! Bad for your rep, and your pocket book.
Its bound to happen tho!
I feel like as a whole the industry is very professional, but its not hard to breed BPs, leave a pair in a tank and it's likely to happen... we've all seen hack breeders, I know I have! It's where I got my snake from...

I see it said a lot to "trust your breeder" that's certainly sound advice, I'm sure there plenty of unscrupulous people out there that are willing to do anything for a buck, including mislabel a normal as something more expensive, but I think a lot of well meaning, less organized individuals could easily mix up hets, or ever subtle morphs, especially if they are overwhelmed by larger numbers than they are used to. That leaves someone short changed ofcourse, but what about the other snake, if a normal is sold as a het or a fire/Spector/phantom, then there's going to be a "normal" that's actually a het or a subtle morph out there, maybe (probably)already sold! One person gets lucky(morph for normal price) the other get unlucky(ripped off)

Am I totally off base? Or do you agree that there's likely many not so normal normals out there?

The other scenario is related to the pet trade, I'm currently trying to rehab a bunch of dumped snakes, 2 of which are exceptional looking animals regardless of their genes!
Their current owner has very little info on them and all came from different homes, none were breeders, all pets, neglected ones at that!
I well know normals can be exceptional beautiful and are extremely varied!
People buy what they like, they don't always know much about it, or why it's special and at the point they are abandoning it, they don't care what it is!
Im not trying to prove anything about theses snakes, they just got me thinking about it...

Obviously a vivid morph isn't going to languish around some pet shop! Albinos and pied would fly out the door! But a mute colored genetic banded? I don't know...

Again, what do you folks think?
Am I just imagining this scenario, I dont think I am, but it might be far more unlikely than I think...

Id love to know what people with more experience think about this,like I say, I'm not trying to prove a thing about the snakes, I know that can only really be done by breeding them.

I think there are a lot of non-geneticially inheritable granites and banded snakes out there.

Some breeders sell hets ( or poss hets) as normals - but I think that is more likely to happen when selling to stores rather than individuals.

Can some people get lucky? Sure.

Is it worth chasing every possible through two or three generations? Probably not finiancially, but it can be a fun project.

If its not 100% het I sell as a normal just to prevent the possibly of issues in the future. I would rather lose a dollar or two every now and again than get a bad rep. All it takes is one person mad that the het they got from you did not prove out to stir up a storm of negativity.

The only way to know is to prove them out. I have a normal male I would like to do that with, and if he proves to be nothing but normal that is fine too :gj:

I'm sure there have been some hets and some Gravel type animals sold as Normals before but time, effort and patience is the only way to find out. I believe there are still a lot of genes out there that will look normal but can have big effects on other morphs. As far as Normals go, before this explosion of morphs people did line breed some interesting Normals. I have some really old ball python books with pictures of "Gold Banded" ball pythons and darker colored ones with almost Black Pastel looking patterns but it was completely polygenic. Some morphs actually require a bit of polygenic breeding into a certain morph before mixing it with others and creating something else. A video I saw from NERD talks about a specific line bred animal as the one used to create a particular morph 2-4 genes later.

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Originally Posted by KING JAMES

If its not 100% het I sell as a normal just to prevent the possibly of issues in the future. I would rather lose a dollar or two every now and again than get a bad rep. All it takes is one person mad that the het they got from you did not prove out to stir up a storm of negativity.

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Guess we all know who to buy normals from!
Honestly, I'd prefer to know what's possibly locked in their genes , even if only a 50%!

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Originally Posted by albinos_rule

The only way to know is to prove them out. I have a normal male I would like to do that with, and if he proves to be nothing but normal that is fine too :gj:

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It would to fun to prove a trait genetic! It's alota time work tho, and as dr del said, not likely to be a good financial choice, at this point it seems like most anything can proven genetic! But really, if you do create your own line, what would they be worth? Not much unless they catch on and get hot!

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Originally Posted by alan12013

I'm sure there have been some hets and some Gravel type animals sold as Normals before but time, effort and patience is the only way to find out. I believe there are still a lot of genes out there that will look normal but can have big effects on other morphs. As far as Normals go, before this explosion of morphs people did line breed some interesting Normals. I have some really old ball python books with pictures of "Gold Banded" ball pythons and darker colored ones with almost Black Pastel looking patterns but it was completely polygenic. Some morphs actually require a bit of polygenic breeding into a certain morph before mixing it with others and creating something else. A video I saw from NERD talks about a specific line bred animal as the one used to create a particular morph 2-4 genes later.

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Thats interesting about the old books! I'd love to check that out.
Could you name any if the books?

I'd recommend something more recent as this is pretty basic and painful to read cover to cover if you already have a little knowledge on the species but it was interesting seeing some of the pictures of the old school polygenic animals. It actually shocked me at how much success they seemed to have selectively breeding for certain things. Try finding a snake nowadays with the dorsal strip that some of these ones had! LINK TO BOOK http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ball-Pythons...item3394506300

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Originally Posted by KING JAMES

If its not 100% het I sell as a normal just to prevent the possibly of issues in the future. I would rather lose a dollar or two every now and again than get a bad rep. All it takes is one person mad that the het they got from you did not prove out to stir up a storm of negativity.

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I know you're not the only one. I was reading on FB about a guy who was delighted to find that the pastel female he paired with a male visual hypo + codom ended up throwing visual hypo babies. The dam was a pastel het hypo.

I wonder if that could mess up someone breeding plans?

Selling PH as Normals is fairly common practice, especially for lower end recessives like Hypo or Albino.

my friend bought a furefly but ended up getting a firefly yb, very lucky indeed.

If a breeder screws up and ships a normal to someone who paid for something else, that breeder needs to make good and refund the difference.

As for selling something more as a normal, that's a bonus for the buyer. I have some eggs incubating that could produce specter. If I'm not sure, I'm going to call it a normal. I'd rather get less money now, than to rip off someone by selling an animal as something more expensive.

We all make mistakes it's how those mistakes are handled that is the test.

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Originally Posted by sorraia

If a breeder screws up and ships a normal to someone who paid for something else, that breeder needs to make good and refund the difference.

As for selling something more as a normal, that's a bonus for the buyer. I have some eggs incubating that could produce specter. If I'm not sure, I'm going to call it a normal. I'd rather get less money now, than to rip off someone by selling an animal as something more expensive.

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I realize an extra gene woukd be a bonus to most anyone, it sure would be for me, but in a situation where you were shooting for something specific, it could completely change the results! Granted its a slim chance especially with a het, but with a normal looking co dom it could lead to a clutch of BELs, that might be a huge waste to some people, right? I'm just guessing, I really don't know...

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Originally Posted by Swayback

I realize an extra gene woukd be a bonus to most anyone, it sure would be for me, but in a situation where you were shooting for something specific, it could completely change the results! Granted its a slim chance especially with a het, but with a normal looking co dom it could lead to a clutch of BELs, that might be a huge waste to some people, right? I'm just guessing, I really don't know...

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It could happen with an unexpected het too. But in most cases those unexpected morphs will still sell for more than a normal, so even though the person didn't get what they wanted, it isn't a complete waste in that they can still make a little money selling the babies. If they bought what they thought was a normal, they can't be expecting many high end morphs any way.

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Originally Posted by Swayback

I realize an extra gene woukd be a bonus to most anyone, it sure would be for me, but in a situation where you were shooting for something specific, it could completely change the results! Granted its a slim chance especially with a het, but with a normal looking co dom it could lead to a clutch of BELs, that might be a huge waste to some people, right? I'm just guessing, I really don't know...

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It could happen with an unexpected het too. But in most cases those unexpected morphs will still sell for more than a normal, so even though the person didn't get what they wanted, it isn't a complete waste in that they can still make a little money selling the babies. If they bought what they thought was a normal, they can't be expecting many high end morphs any way.

I just can't imagine any one being upset over getting more than they expected when they paid less. Paying $20 for a "normal" and getting something like a bel, or whatever, seems like a win win to me, regardless what you were shooting for.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

We all make mistakes it's how those mistakes are handled that is the test.

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I think your talking about the other end of things, people being ripped off, that's not really what I'm talking about, I totally agree, an honest mistake can happen, and can usually be resolved, but I'm more talking about the other end of things, snakes getting mixed up and called normals, I'm sure after there's been more than a few fires and yellowbellys dumped or passed around and their lineage lost..

I have sold 100's of pos het males and females and 100% het males as normals. With the prices of visual morphs as low as they are there just isn't a huge market for pos hets and male hets. I guess there is a chance of someone being surprised down the road but honestly the chance is there in all clutches. I'm sure many of the thousands of imported balls that come in the country yearly are het for one recessive gene or another.

As far as hets go, lots and lots of breeders sell "possible" hets as normals. You really can't get much more than a normals' price for them, so why bother? That's how the axanthic pied came to be. The breeder never knew the normals he had were het axanthic. Of course, stupid odds help too, because "possible" hets even if they truly are het, bred to one another have a monumental chance of producing the visual. What I mean is, say you buy a normal "possible" het hypo as just a normal. If though it actually IS het, you don't know that. Let's say for arguments sake, you also have a pastel het hypo. And let's say you pair the two. Even though both are het hypo, you only have a 1 in 8 chance, statistically, to hit the visual. So even if you get eggs from that female for two or even three seasons, theoretically, you may not hit a visual.

Now add a second recessive gene to that mix, pied. Now you only have a 1 in 16 chance, statistically, to hit the double visual. You could breed for five or six seasons or longer and not hit it. But Markus did it. He hit the double recessive, with a gene he didn't even know he had.

So yes, possible hets are sold as normals all the time. But a person could go insane trying to prove if a normal was anything but a normal.

Now, as to "morphs" being sold as normals. That can and does happen now and then, but it is nearly always caused by an unscrupulous breeder selling to an inexperienced buyer. Anyone who is serious about ball pythons makes sure they know what they are looking for. And yes, even with subtle morphs you can tell. Spotnose for example, looks like a normal to probably 90% of people. But if someone is looking for a spotnose, then you can be sure they know how to tell a true spotnose from a normal. The same thing with a morph like spector. Most people may not know the difference, but someone who is looking for a spector will be able to tell.

Now there are very poor examples of morphs out there. And to someone with less experience you may not be able to tell what they are. This is why serious breeders will consult with other breeders when there is doubt. For example, the Enchi. A very poor Enchi could easily be mistaken for a normal. But a quality Enchi can't be mistaken for anything but an Enchi. Or the Leopard. A poor example of a leopard might be mistaken for a normal to someone with less experience. But someone who knows the gene, is shopping for the gene, they know what a good example of a leopard should look like and would never buy a normal by mistake.

The best way to protect yourself is to become familiar with the morph you seek. That way there will be no buying a normal instead.

Gale

As everyone has already said, selling possible hets as normals happens a lot. And I've seen several threads where people have posted pictures of their new snake and have been told there's another gene in there (I specifically remember a firefly that was actually a firefly yellowbelly, and a butter or lesser that was actually a fire butter/lesser). For a breeder's reputation, it's definitely better to sell something they're unsure about as a normal, than to have a customer get an unpleasant surprise.

I believe Brian at BHB Reptiles has said that before they proved out the sunset morph, he sold a bunch of het sunset babies to local pet stores at the price of normals because he was convinced the morph wasn't genetic. So there are people who own het sunsets that were purchased as normals. And now they're selling for thousands of dollars :O

I remember reading a thread a few months ago about someone hatching axanthic clowns, and they had no idea that the male was het for axanthic, they were just trying to prove the possible het clown female to be het clown. Definitely a surprise I wouldn't mind :) Here it is: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...was-unexpected

Thanks for the in depth replies!

I've heard stories of people
buying normal animals later
to discover that they scored
a really nice yellowbelly, I'd
not be surprised of this going
on with breeders using high
end 3-5 gene morphs and to
them, the yellowbellies or
whatever else aren't nearly
as valuable so they have lots
of really nice animals they're
just itching to get rid of to the
big distributors basically. I'd
also not be surprised to see
this happening with Spotnoses
and as others ITT have mentioned
Granites and Gravels, the more
subtle morphs that seem like
normals to the untrained eye.
I'd be really hyped to have a
yellowbelly for the price of a
normal ball python! I'm trying
to get a super pastel yellowbelly
or super pastel YB spotnose female.

RustlewoodReptiles