Horrible way to handle. Opinions?

Im usually a big fan of snake bytes and abtv as a whole. But imo this is doing the opposite of what the channel is trying to do. They took an animal that was in no way showing aggression and grabbed it behind the head unnecessarily causing the retic to freak out. This is exactly what the media wants, making retics look like monsters. When the reality is the exact opposite. This situation was handled horribly and over dramatized doing the hobby no favors. I would expect this from animal planet not abtv, im very disappointed. Opinions? Wrestling A 16ft Python : Kamp Kenan : AnimalByte…: http://youtu.be/H-ydcYagqtA

I'm at work so I had to watch with no volume. They didn't say anything like "this snake is super aggressive once we get him out of the cage" or "this is why we're handling him like this..."???

I saw a retic tapped out of food mode with a hook. Treated with respect for about a minute showing that the snake looked super chill and calm. Then it was just grabbed and manhandled and treated like some aggressive monster... Wtf?

Brian needs to pull that Moron from his channel.... plain and simple...

If you actually pay attention to the video you'll hear them discussing the fact that the last time the owner took that snake out he got nailed and the sucker almost killed him. The owner repeatedly states that it is not a tame animal.

Granted, it may have been possible to handle that snake without pinning its head. But that was a snake noone in that room trusted. If you don't trust an animal that size, its probably safest for everyone involved, the snake included, to restrain the animal.

Kenan isn't a python guy, and neither was anyone else in that video as far as I can tell. Put a couple guys with a ton of experience working with retics in that room and they probably approach the situation differently. But if you've got a huge, untame animal and no experts around isnt it best to take the safest approach? I think so.


Kenan is also probably my favorite of the new AnimalBytesTV guys. He clearly sets the bar for his reptile husbandry way higher than most people, which is admirable.



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Originally Posted by CryHavoc17

If you actually pay attention to the video you'll hear them discussing the fact that the last time the owner took that snake out he got nailed and the sucker almost killed him. The owner repeatedly states that it is not a tame animal.

Granted, it may have been possible to handle that snake without pinning its head. But that was a snake noone in that room trusted. If you don't trust an animal that size, its probably safest for everyone involved, the snake included, to restrain the animal.

Kenan isn't a python guy, and neither was anyone else in that video as far as I can tell. Put a couple guys with a ton of experience working with retics in that room and they probably approach the situation differently. But if you've got a huge, untame animal and no experts around isnt it best to take the safest approach? I think so.


Kenan is also probably my favorite of the new AnimalBytesTV guys. He clearly sets the bar for his reptile husbandry way higher than most people, which is admirable.



Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk 2

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Lol "if you actually pay attention" your funny. I don't care what the animal did in the past, every interaction is different and that was a non aggressive animal. If as you said no one in that room is a "python guy" they have no business caring for that snake. The owner talks about never having the snake out completely since it was a hatchling, this is simply someone that has no business owning the animal. You can like this guy all you want, this video and his behavior in it is doing the hobby a huge disservice.

Come on, they said it was not a nice animal. The owner had a nasty run in with it. Worst bite he ever took. Kept on saying it had a bad attitude. Guess it would of been better he tagged someone. Not every one has the balls to dance with an animal like that. They did what they felt they had to do, according to that snakes history.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

I saw a retic tapped out of food mode with a hook. Treated with respect for about a minute showing that the snake looked super chill and calm. Then it was just grabbed and manhandled and treated like some aggressive monster... Wtf?

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Exactly. Videos like this portraying retics as uncontrollable monsters are why we have to worry about having our animals taken from us.

I watched it and was shocked. I also had the volume off but reading through the comments under the post I saw one by Kamp Kenan "He was fine until he realized he was being moved out of the room...then he really started to show his strength. This snake is a known biter and I had to keep his head restrained during the moving process:)" Maybe it is typically aggressive?

I watched it - with sound. The snake may or may not have needed such force. What was somewhat unnecessary was the Reality TV style 'OH MAN WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE DUDE' attitude. There could have been more of a 'this animal is scared and we want to make this as minimally stressful as possible because he is powerful' versus ' OHHHHH LETS SCREAM IN ITS FACE AND FALL TO OUR KNEES!!!' I feel extremely confident that if Brian was the one in this position, he would have approached it by talking about the snake's fear, stress, and respect for its power. Not 'IM WRASTLIN' A DINO!'

Agreed Rob. A little over the top, unnecessary, and definitely not doing Retics any favors int he hobby.


It is what it is though. The reality is that many people end up int his guys shoes... they get a hatchling and don't realize how wild they can be as they grow. One bad move and a bad bite and now you feel it's necessary to handle an animal like this to keep yourself safe. Not good for the snake or the people.

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Originally Posted by Rob

Lol "if you actually pay attention" your funny. I don't care what the animal did in the past, every interaction is different and that was a non aggressive animal. If as you said no one in that room is a "python guy" they have no business caring for that snake. The owner talks about never having the snake out completely since it was a hatchling, this is simply someone that has no business owning the animal. You can like this guy all you want, this video and his behavior in it is doing the hobby a huge disservice.

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Agreed 100%. If the guy is in over his head then he needs to realize that, he has no business caring for that snake. On a side note I was also a little disappointed with this weeks SnakeBytes episode as well, Brian built up PP like it was an amazing facility. I have been to the "reptile zoo", the husbandry is terrible, the facility is filthy, most of the repitles on display had mites there are always ants and other bugs climbing in the enclosure and on the animals themselves, the cages are way too small, the staff giving out info was not knowledgeable and they are quick to tell you that the animals on display are also for sale, the list goes on. Even my son who is 6 knew enough to say, "these cages are way too small, all the animals look sick". As an example they had 2 adult rhino iguanas in a tiny (I believe it was a 4x2x2 may have been a 6x2x2) melamine and glass cage and that theme tracked through the entire "zoo". If you spend 10 minutes searching for reviews online you see years and years of the same complaints.

That video was absolutely a poor representation of retic owners and our hobby. My first thought when the guy said that the retic hadn't been completely out of his cage since he was a hatchling, was why on earth do you own him? None of those people had enough experience with retics to be handling it the way they did, let alone make a video about it. If that snake was being aggressive, he would have been striking from the get go. He came out of his enclosure curious and more than likely could have been moved without having his head secured. The comment "almost killed by this snake" was completey retarded and pissed me off. He wasn't "almost killed". He did something stupid and got bitten. Sucks to be you. The snake bit you bad? So what. Walk it off princess. You shouldn't have that snake to begin with.

For anyone out there who may have been on the fence about owning a retic, please don't let this video change your mind. I will say this to anyone who will listen. If interaction with snakes is what you really like about this hobby, then there is no better interaction than with a retic. Retics will look you directly in your eyes. There is true interaction. These snakes are intelligent and the ultimate experience in handling, in my opinion. These snakes make you ask the question "Does my snake recognize me?" These animals are just plain awesome! Everyone knows that retics have an aggressive food response or you better know this if you are going to own one. Hook train them. My retic just needs one touch on her head and she immediately snaps out of the food response. I absolutely love retics!

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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

On a side note I was also a little disappointed with this weeks SnakeBytes episode as well, Brian built up PP like it was an amazing facility. I have been to the "reptile zoo", the husbandry is terrible, the facility is filthy, most of the repitles on display had mites there are always ants and other bugs climbing in the enclosure and on the animals themselves, the cages are way too small, the staff giving out info was not knowledgeable and they are quick to tell you that the animals on display are also for sale, the list goes on. Even my son who is 6 knew enough to say, "these cages are way too small, all the animals look sick". As an example they had 2 adult rhino iguanas in a tiny (I believe it was a 4x2x2 may have been a 6x2x2) melamine and glass cage and that theme tracked through the entire "zoo". If you spend 10 minutes searching for reviews online you see years and years of the same complaints.

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I agree with this 100%. For brian to air an episode there implies a tacit endorsement of Jays husbandry practices, which vary somewhere between poor and unconciounable



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I rewatched the video, and honestly I just think Kenan is clearly inexperienced with these animals and was afraid of the snake in that situation. I dont think he was sensationalizing or hamming it up, I think he was scared of the animal. You can argue that boradcasting this footage was in poor taste because he didnt know what he was doing, but I really dont see it as that big of a deal. Its easy to armchair quarterback them and say they should have done x y or z. But they moved the animal from point a to point b without putting anyone (the snake included) in harms way. I say Id chalk that up as a win.

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Originally Posted by CryHavoc17

I rewatched the video, and honestly I just think Kenan is clearly inexperienced with these animals and was afraid of the snake in that situation. I dont think he was sensationalizing or hamming it up, I think he was scared of the animal. You can argue that boradcasting this footage was in poor taste because he didnt know what he was doing, but I really dont see it as that big of a deal. Its easy to armchair quarterback them and say they should have done x y or z. But they moved the animal from point a to point b without putting anyone (the snake included) in harms way. I say Id chalk that up as a win.

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I agree he was afraid. But putting a video up like this is only going to add to the misconception that these animals can not be kept as pets. That's the exact opposite purpose of the channel. If a channel we come to expect to put our pets in the best light is putting up videos making them out to be out of control animals only because of poor handling. Then it's only a matter of time before they come for our retics. For those of you that aren't worried because you don't keep large snakes, they will continue down the line until the point of adding bps to the Lacey act as well. Videos making snakes look like monsters should bother you if you want the hobby to have any future. In no way would I chalk this video up as a win.

Meh,

Ok, so there have been a lot of people spamming this on facebook and talking about the head grab. Why was the head grabbed? To hype the episode. The snake showed absolutely no aggression... none... it was trying to get away from the head grab that's for sure, but there was no cage aggression even witnessed. When my mainland males get aggressive, they are flying out of their cage mouth open. But even then, I don't grab the head... the only time I have ever had to grab a retics head was during a shot, and during an inspection on one of my largest girls when we wanted to look in her mouth.

Case and point, when they let the snake go back in the new enclosure, the snake barely retreated... when a snake is angered to a point of worry, especially a retic, they will stand their ground, not simply slither away a little bit and be content. My thoughts are it was going to be a very simple move, so the owner tells some scary story, the guy hypes it up, and they show a giant snake trying to escape a head grab.

Does it represent the hobby well? Not really... Is it the worst thing to happen to retic owners? Probably not since the ultimate goal was "safety" at the cost of demonizing a seemingly docile snake.

My two cents.

In my opinion the whole thing was sensationalized. Why wouldn't they have simply let the snake crawl into a crate with handles and then transported the crate to the new enclosure? Because then you wouldn't have seen a giant writhing snake. However, you would have seen a way to safely and securely move a large constrictor from one enclosure to another without putting the animal or any of the handlers at risk of harm or injury.

Sad really. Just my 0.02

I kinda feel Animal bytes might become exactly what they said they weren't in the future. But I hope they do not.

Another note, if it bit ONCE, how do we know it wasn't some idiot trying to hold it when it was in feed mode? I hate snakebytes with a bloody passion. They do us a disservice to the hobby.

These animals aren't dumb. They're not as smart as a human or gorilla or dolphin, but they're certainly not a worm or slug either. They command and deserve respect. Just because a snake bites you once, it doesn't mean you have the right to handle it like that every time after just because YOURE scared.

When someone makes a mistake, that doesn't mean you get to forget all the nice things they've done. Just because it bites you once (which could have been feed response, in which case not the snakes fault at all) it doesn't mean you get to take away all trust and respect and treat it like an aggressive beast.

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Originally Posted by iPanda

Another note, if it bit ONCE, how do we know it wasn't some idiot trying to hold it when it was in feed mode? I hate snakebytes with a bloody passion. They do us a disservice to the hobby.

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Did I say you could come here and dog Snakebytes :-O ;-)

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Originally Posted by reptileexperts

Did I say you could come here and dog Snakebytes :-O ;-)

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Sorry, Mastah ;P

- - - Updated - - -

(I'm not really sorry ;P)

Snakebytes is great. As they look to scale, it runs the terrible risk of following standard reality TV rules. This is how television is made. I much prefer the human antics for sensational entertainment value than the 'DINO WRASTLIN' mentality you see out of this video and PP as a business in general - I think the highlight on PP illustrates the direction these videos are headed, which may cause me to alter my opinion from the first sentence here.


Kenan -"This animal is not a pet"

How does a business that sells large constrictors publish this kind of comment to their own community?

I have two inputs. One, if your trying to influence positive opinion into the hobby or increase interest in wildlife, maybe not use a possibly aggressive snake that could scare your audience. Two, i have yet to see Brian manhandle a snake. I could be wrong but usually he directs the snakes attention away from his hand that he picks the snake up with then handles it carefully or handles longer snakes from the tail all the while showing that even dangerous snakes can be handle safely and be a lot of fun.

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Originally Posted by MonkeyShuttle

I have two inputs. One, if your trying to influence positive opinion into the hobby or increase interest in wildlife, maybe not use a possibly aggressive snake that could scare your audience. Two, i have yet to see Brian manhandle a snake. I could be wrong but usually he directs the snakes attention away from his hand that he picks the snake up with then handles it carefully or handles longer snakes from the tail all the while showing that even dangerous snakes can be handle safely and be a lot of fun.

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Agreed, even when he takes the infamous Satin out he doesn't grab his head. That's a truly agressive snake, and still doesn't need to be handled the way this calm tiger was.

Wow I couldn't even finish watching that. That beautiful animal reacted that way because he grabbed behind its head. I'm sure it would have been just fine if he would have just picked it up. Really shows how UN professional he is.

I usually like this channel. Usually.

Kenan seemed like a real panzee in this one, not so much of a theatrical drama queen but it just seemed like everyone was being inexperienced sissies and really could have done a better job.

Of course, it could have always been worst. I personally hate Crittacam for this unholy piece of ****:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G29JE2VsUgw

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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

Agreed 100%. If the guy is in over his head then he needs to realize that, he has no business caring for that snake. On a side note I was also a little disappointed with this weeks SnakeBytes episode as well, Brian built up PP like it was an amazing facility. I have been to the "reptile zoo", the husbandry is terrible, the facility is filthy, most of the repitles on display had mites there are always ants and other bugs climbing in the enclosure and on the animals themselves, the cages are way too small, the staff giving out info was not knowledgeable and they are quick to tell you that the animals on display are also for sale, the list goes on. Even my son who is 6 knew enough to say, "these cages are way too small, all the animals look sick". As an example they had 2 adult rhino iguanas in a tiny (I believe it was a 4x2x2 may have been a 6x2x2) melamine and glass cage and that theme tracked through the entire "zoo". If you spend 10 minutes searching for reviews online you see years and years of the same complaints.

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The thing that stood out to my most about this week's SBTV episode was seeing all those iguanas in the background in cages more appropriately sized for a hamster or maybe a smallish guinea pig. I've never heard of the place before, but a place that specializes in reptiles should at least know what size environments are appropriate for large arboreal lizards and which ones are downright cruel. You would think Brian would have known better considering his past episodes about Florida herpers that keep iguana species in outdoor enclosures the size of dog runs.

I haven't watched much of Kenan's show, and what I did see gave me the impression that he's more of a turtle guy. Obviously not very experienced at handling snakes, as he looked ready to fill his pants through the whole video. Having believed all the hype about ABTV when it was in the works, I have to say that videos like these are a big disappointment. May as well go back to watching Animal Planet for the same kind of content.

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Originally Posted by Daigga

The thing that stood out to my most about this week's SBTV episode was seeing all those iguanas in the background in cages more appropriately sized for a hamster or maybe a smallish guinea pig. I've never heard of the place before, but a place that specializes in reptiles should at least know what size environments are appropriate for large arboreal lizards and which ones are downright cruel. You would think Brian would have known better considering his past episodes about Florida herpers that keep iguana species in outdoor enclosures the size of dog runs.

I haven't watched much of Kenan's show, and what I did see gave me the impression that he's more of a turtle guy. Obviously not very experienced at handling snakes, as he looked ready to fill his pants through the whole video. Having believed all the hype about ABTV when it was in the works, I have to say that videos like these are a big disappointment. May as well go back to watching Animal Planet for the same kind of content.

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Even watching snakebytes shows that Brian doesn't know lizard husbandry, and it is a common topic on the monitor forums...he has water monitors in tiny screen cages that cant hold humidity...beardies and leos in racks and now he is getting into BTS...I assume those will go in racks as well :(

I usually enjoy snake bytes and the shows animal bytes present. But this one did make me mad. Along with the critta cam one previously stated. Kenan is more if a turtle guy and I feel if he was that scared he shouldn't of dealt with a large constrictor. But about Brian and lizards. His monitors are kept in horribly small cages and he isn't very good with handling them. And beardies and BTS shouldn't be keep in racks however I don't see the problem with Leo's.

Does he really keep those 3 alligators in that kiddy pool?

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Originally Posted by colton62

Does he really keep those 3 alligators in that kiddy pool?

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yup...I loved how today's episode he was discussing "animal ethics" then displays that for husbandry... FAIL

Eh, not a fan of where this is heading. My intentions when starting this thread wasn't to bash a guy that is a huge proponent of the hobby. Brian's one of the good guys, is he perfect? No, but no one is. He's made mistakes along the way, but for the most part I'd say he is a good representation for the reptile hobby to a mainstream audience.

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Originally Posted by Rob

Eh, not a fan of where this is heading. My intentions when starting this thread wasn't to bash a guy that is a huge proponent of the hobby. Brian's one of the good guys, is he perfect? No, but no one is. He's made mistakes along the way, but for the most part I'd say he is a good representation for the reptile hobby to a mainstream audience.

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I would agree with this. I have never met him but the general concensus is that he is in fact a good guy and he does seem to care about his animals, that being said IMO and this is just my opinion he is a snake guy, it seems lately he has been getting more and more into lizards, but his husbandry is off. Lizards require room to move, they need substrate to burrow, you can't keep them like snakes (in racks with nothing but a hide and a water bowl), so my only issue is that people that may be getting into lizards see his husbandry because he is such a big name and they are pointed in the wrong direction.

My family got a chance to talk to him at length at the January Reptile Super Show in Pomona, CA. You can't find a person more into his animals. And, his personality was just like in his videos so there is nothing theatrical about him. Down to earth and willing to take the time and answer question after question. Unfortunately, it is a rare person to not have any critics, especially when in the public eye. I would like to see all of these critics be where he has gotten in 25 years and maintain an absolutely 100% perfect shop. Even he is admittedly learning new things all of the time. As stated above, he is one of the good guys in our hobby!

I agree 100% with you guys though. I wasn't trying to bash him. He seems really passionate and very good with snakes. I was just a little put off by the monitors and then seeing 3 gators in a small pool. I believe he is a really good guy with good intentions. Just talking about animal ethics then showing 3 gators in that pool wasn't a good idea. There is or is going to be a law in Germany that requires like a land and water area that are at least like 2 times the length of the crocodilian and by 4 times the length for each land and water.

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Originally Posted by Saber402

My family got a chance to talk to him at length at the January Reptile Super Show in Pomona, CA. You can't find a person more into his animals. And, his personality was just like in his videos so there is nothing theatrical about him. Down to earth and willing to take the time and answer question after question. Unfortunately, it is a rare person to not have any critics, especially when in the public eye. I would like to see all of these critics be where he has gotten in 25 years and maintain an absolutely 100% perfect shop. Even he is admittedly learning new things all of the time. As stated above, he is one of the good guys in our hobby!

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Again not disputing if he is a good guy or if he has good intentions. I am a critic about the husbandry of his lizards. His husbandry for lizards is wrong, there really is no dispute there, with him being in the public eye it seems like its the "pet store" syndrom all over again. "Well he's a big name and his videos show him caring for lizards in this way so it must be correct" when in fact it isn't, that is my issue. So in that sense yes I am a critic.

What exactly is the issue with his lizard husbandry? Leos do fine in racks. While most people wouldn't keep beardies in racks its pretty clear to me that for a breeder needing a high efficiency set up his beardie husbandry is fine.

The most recent set up (actually the only one ive ever seen on his show, so im assuming is the one you guys are talking about) for his night nile monitor project wasnt bad for the size the animals were at. He can use screen cages (its not actually screen, but pvc coated mesh, but i digress) for his monitors for the same reason he can use the screen covered freedom breeder racks. His shop is temperature and humidity controlled. Now im not a fan of how barren the setup I saw was, monitors are too smart to not have an enriching captive environment, but that was my only nitpick on that setup.

So what exactly are you guys griping about?
Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by CryHavoc17

What exactly is the issue with his lizard husbandry? Leos do fine in racks. While most people wouldn't keep beardies in racks its pretty clear to me that for a breeder needing a high efficiency set up his beardie husbandry is fine.

The most recent set up (actually the only one ive ever seen on his show, so im assuming is the one you guys are talking about) for his night nile monitor project wasnt bad for the size the animals were at. He can use screen cages (its not actually screen, but pvc coated mesh, but i digress) for his monitors for the same reason he can use the screen covered freedom breeder racks. His shop is temperature and humidity controlled. Now im not a fan of how barren the setup I saw was, monitors are too smart to not have an enriching captive environment, but that was my only nitpick on that setup.

So what exactly are you guys griping about?
Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk 2

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My gripe is that NO those screen cages are not ok for Monitors of any size (regardless of being in a temp controlled room), Blueys do not belong in racks and IMO neither do leos or beardies. Monitors, Tegus, Blueys are all very intelligent species and they need room to explore. I'm so tired of people saying bare minimum husbandry is ok because its a "high yield" breeding facility. Husbandry doesn't get a pass because they are breeders, and I am not just targeting him at this point. Lizards explore, they don't sit in burrows all day, they cover a lot more ground in a day then snakes, esp monitors, none of them belong in racks.

Spend some time reading on this forum if anyone still thinks those small screen cages are "fine" for monitors: http://www.varanustalk.com/forum/

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Originally Posted by colton62

I agree 100% with you guys though. I wasn't trying to bash him. He seems really passionate and very good with snakes. I was just a little put off by the monitors and then seeing 3 gators in a small pool. I believe he is a really good guy with good intentions. Just talking about animal ethics then showing 3 gators in that pool wasn't a good idea. There is or is going to be a law in Germany that requires like a land and water area that are at least like 2 times the length of the crocodilian and by 4 times the length for each land and water.

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I believe the pool is temporary for the gators. Nor do I see it being much different than their basic needs. He may need a bigger one for them now that they're getting bigger, but what else is an aquarium at the zoo once it's stripped down of all the pretty decor? And of course, I'm sure he would have it filtered.
As of the monitors, that was all a bunch of old, misunderstood bull#### from several years ago. He never kept them in small enclosures full-time; he's stated a million times before they were only temporary enclosures for feeding.

Brian's still learning; especially since it's only recently he's began keeping lizards and crocidilians. That's what life is and is why we do what we do. Brian's a good guy; he works for USARK, wants to spread a good message and is passionate about his animals. Cut the man some slack.

I saw a calm, inquisitive snake that was merely trying to muscle out of a head grab while it was slightly manhandled to a different enclosure. The snake never showed any real aggression and I doubt he was stressed much by the encounter. As soon as his head was released he went on his merry way seemingly no worse for the wear.

I don't care how tame a snake is, when you need to restrain the head their natural response will be to muscle out of it. The amount of effort they put into this(writhing, musking, thrashing, attempted biting, etc) is in direct correlation to the amount of aggravation the snake is experiencing. Even my tamest snake will act much like the snake in the video when gently restrained. The snake was not overly agitated even after the head grab, the main difference here is size and strength.

I find some fault in the antics of the people but in all honesty they did a decent job of showcasing the strength of a larger python without overly stressing the animal. As far as I could tell their "big snake, big responsibility" message was trying instill that not just feeding and providing proper care are involved. When working with large constrictors there are aspects of care that a single person can not do alone safely.

Granted, the snake did not need to be moved in this fashion and 90% of husbandry and care can be done singly by an experienced keeper but how else were they going to showcase the strength? That, with a dash of sensationalism, seemed to be the spirit of the video from my perspective.

As for the Brian bashing on his monitor and gator care, I think folks need to just chill for a second - especially if the only information you have is garnered from a couple minutes of footage. In the limited glimpse from his videos I saw clear, clean water for the gators and a pissed off monitor in a screen cage. All animals looked healthy and well fed and since I don't know anything else about the situation I'm not going to pass judgement. In the latest episode of snakebytes Brian sounded perfectly sincere and I believe him to be an incredibly positive influence overall - especially since they stopped harassing snakes into biting folks in their videos. He doesn't seem the kind of guy that would ignore good advice from experienced keepers so if you have concerns, and you are experienced, maybe you should voice them to him personally.

The talk about monitor care reminds me of a visit to the Honolulu Zoo some years ago. I had just finished admiring the komodo dragons in their rather beautiful exhibit when I walked up to the crocodile monitor enclosure - a large chain link setup with a concrete floor. While I wasn't a fan of their lack of enrichment the croc monitors were active and looked extremely healthy. I can't seem to find the link but not so long ago I read an article that they produced baby crocodile monitors - a feat very few have accomplished. I don't know if they had changed their setup or if the one I saw was only temporary but they obviously were doing something right to have healthy, thriving adults producing healthy babies. The point is, I don't know what their situation was but I saw healthy, active animals and wasn't overly concerned and ready to start flinging poop.

http://www.varanustalk.com/forum/sho...ht=Screen+Cage

http://www.savannahmonitor.co/

This is just a short post, people (the founder of the site) that I would consider well versed in monitor care (as I am no expert, and I have just delt with a big issue on incorrect husbandry with my tegu because I took advice from breeders, which is why I feel passionatly about this topic) have tried to approach him in the past with no luck, he has a lot of info on his site not just the forum, backed by a lot of data from vets, field research, etc. Again this is my main thing, people see a big name with improper husbandry and they think its ok.

I look at it this way, and I'm sure I will get bashed/flamed for this statement, but here it goes anyways...if we saw a "breeding facility" full of thousands of dogs that were in small cramped cages with the bare minimum stacked from wall to wall, but were fed and clean and healthy "looking" would it still not be a puppy mill? If we saw the same facility filled with cats would it not be an issue about the well being of the cats? For a community of people that love their reptiles why would we not promote the best husbandry and care possible? After all our reptile friends have longer life spans then most "domestic pets". You could even say on an extreme level, we put humans in small cells with lighting, a toilet, bed, and provide food and showers and they will live, will they be healthy, probably, will they thrive, not really...I know that is a big stretch but I am just curious why we think we have the ability to justify poor standards of care for certain animals and not others?

I think your concern is admirable and I would be worried too if I didn't think Brian cared so deeply for his animals. My main point was people bashing someone for something when they don't have all the information. Brian's love for animals seems completely sincere to me so when I saw the smaller monitor cage and not entirely adequate gator pool I didn't jump to conclusions. Then I read a few posts back and someone mentions something about the monitor being in a feeding cage and the gators soon to be upgraded? The reason screen cages are frowned upon is that it's much harder to provide proper humidity and thermal gradient in them. If you can pull it off though they are actually BETTER than sealed cages because they also offer good air exchange. I know them monitors in the wild ain't livin in stagnant petri dishes.

I'm not trying to justify poor standards at all. I'm simply trying to promote fair treatment and full understanding of a situation before grabbing the torches and pitchforks. I'll have to find the other videos folks are talking about cause I seldom watched snakebytes - wasn't a fan of the "bite me -lawls - bite me" stuff personally. I have started watching some since they change personnel though and enjoyed several episodes. You mentioned beardies and blueys I think? I see no reason why either couldn't be kept in tubs if of adequate size and tweaked right. It actually sounds like a much better idea than many of the setups I've seen over the years.

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Originally Posted by jclaiborne

http://www.varanustalk.com/forum/sho...ht=Screen+Cage

http://www.savannahmonitor.co/

This is just a short post, people (the founder of the site) that I would consider well versed in monitor care (as I am no expert, and I have just delt with a big issue on incorrect husbandry with my tegu because I took advice from breeders, which is why I feel passionatly about this topic) have tried to approach him in the past with no luck, he has a lot of info on his site not just the forum, backed by a lot of data from vets, field research, etc. Again this is my main thing, people see a big name with improper husbandry and they think its ok.

I look at it this way, and I'm sure I will get bashed/flamed for this statement, but here it goes anyways...if we saw a "breeding facility" full of thousands of dogs that were in small cramped cages with the bare minimum stacked from wall to wall, but were fed and clean and healthy "looking" would it still not be a puppy mill? If we saw the same facility filled with cats would it not be an issue about the well being of the cats? For a community of people that love their reptiles why would we not promote the best husbandry and care possible? After all our reptile friends have longer life spans then most "domestic pets". You could even say on an extreme level, we put humans in small cells with lighting, a toilet, bed, and provide food and showers and they will live, will they be healthy, probably, will they thrive, not really...I know that is a big stretch but I am just curious why we think we have the ability to justify poor standards of care for certain animals and not others?

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Well, since this thread hasn't died yet and I've now seen the vid in question, I'll give my thoughts. Yes this snake was improperly handled by people with inadequate experience, and it could be argued that the owner should consider selling the snake to someone better able to work with it. Have to admit, even my wife, who watched part of it over my shoulder, was surprised at the way the situation was handled. I will continue watching, and hope this whole thing doesn't go the way of animal planet.
Now, on the somewhat offtopic subject of Brian from bhb, I am another one who has had the opportunity to speak to him personally, and yes he really is just as approachable and enthusiastic about seemly everything as he is on snake bytes. And though I do strongly disagree about some of his lizard care setups, I still think he is a stand up guy, and a great ambassador for the hobby. And the gators are normally in about a 10' diameter pool, haven't seen the recent episodes of snakebytes, so not sure if that's what everyone talking about. A kiddie pool to me is one of those thin plastic 4'-6' diameter jobs you get from walmart, not the 10' commercial grade pool I normally see in his vids. Wonder if I could talk him into letting me design and help build some proper setups for those night niles, lol.

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Originally Posted by John1982

I think your concern is admirable and I would be worried too if I didn't think Brian cared so deeply for his animals. My main point was people bashing someone for something when they don't have all the information. Brian's love for animals seems completely sincere to me so when I saw the smaller monitor cage and not entirely adequate gator pool I didn't jump to conclusions. Then I read a few posts back and someone mentions something about the monitor being in a feeding cage and the gators soon to be upgraded? The reason screen cages are frowned upon is that it's much harder to provide proper humidity and thermal gradient in them. If you can pull it off though they are actually BETTER than sealed cages because they also offer good air exchange. I know them monitors in the wild ain't livin in stagnant petri dishes.

I'm not trying to justify poor standards at all. I'm simply trying to promote fair treatment and full understanding of a situation before grabbing the torches and pitchforks. I'll have to find the other videos folks are talking about cause I seldom watched snakebytes - wasn't a fan of the "bite me -lawls - bite me" stuff personally. I have started watching some since they change personnel though and enjoyed several episodes. You mentioned beardies and blueys I think? I see no reason why either couldn't be kept in tubs if of adequate size and tweaked right. It actually sounds like a much better idea than many of the setups I've seen over the years.

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Thank you for the response, I enjoy discussing issues because no matter how long anyone has kept animals we are all still learning. The tubs that I have seen the beardies in were tiny with no climbing room, multiple in one, no bedding or if there was it was paper towels or sani-chips with a water dish and a hide. Basically a snake rack with a screen top and heat lamp, it just seems very miminalistic, and I look at my blueys and beardies in 4x2x2ft cages and feel that even that is small because they utilize every inch of the cage. I see how active they can be and I feel bad seeing them cramped. Even after talking over my build plans for the tegu cage with you I am starting to feel like my 4x8 will be small so we are going make an external basking area in the garage (2 car) that is being converted into the reptile room so it can free roam and stretch out while I am home. So far I have replaced the garage door with double wall insulated ones, put threshoulds all around the doors to seal them, connected AC ducting into the garage to temp control it, did an epoxy coating on the floor for easy cleanups. I do agree that the SB episodes have gotten better and his last episode he did seem compassionate, I just personally don't like seeing "bare minimum care" for any animal.

This animal wasent aggressive when they pulled it out. Yes it probably bit him a few years ago but then again he NEVER handled it! Like stated before he should have never been caring for an animal like this if none of them are python guys. Yes some retics can be aggressive but 90% of them are puppy dog tame. I think they could have protrayed a calm retic in the video instead of the "aggresive" one they showed. This is all the fire power the media and the government needs to ban retics. If you think retics need to be banned then you know nothing about them and are just like the rest that wont take the time to understand. You dont have to step in my house if you dont like them stay away from them. Dont crap on everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Rob

I agree he was afraid. But putting a video up like this is only going to add to the misconception that these animals can not be kept as pets. That's the exact opposite purpose of the channel. If a channel we come to expect to put our pets in the best light is putting up videos making them out to be out of control animals only because of poor handling. Then it's only a matter of time before they come for our retics. For those of you that aren't worried because you don't keep large snakes, they will continue down the line until the point of adding bps to the Lacey act as well. Videos making snakes look like monsters should bother you if you want the hobby to have any future. In no way would I chalk this video up as a win.

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"Seriously this thing is powerful. This is not a pet"

This was like watching an advertisement by an organization trying to ban the ownership of large constrictors (the state of New York?)

In this weeks episode of Kamp Kenan he expresses contempt for anyone importing species that have been listed and does so emphatically enough that it seems doubtful he approves of any importation whether that is his position or not.

Primitive Tim recently had back-to-back episodes where he went into lengthy instructions to his viewership to seek out law enforcement to ask them for does and don'ts as to what is legal before going on a herping adventure. Tim was so pro law enforcement I began thinking of him as Officer Tim.

Then there is The Python Hunter. I have not seen an episode of this as I could not make it through the intro. The guy is a cop.

What happened to "The Adventurer"? The last episode he was catching Burmese pythons in the everglades. Before that he was playing with rattlesnakes. This show had potential. It appears to have disappeared.

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Originally Posted by iPanda

Another note, if it bit ONCE, how do we know it wasn't some idiot trying to hold it when it was in feed mode? I hate snakebytes with a bloody passion. They do us a disservice to the hobby.

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I disagree. I miss Chewy. Sam the colubrid girl was hot too. If you don't like watching Brian remove Satan from the drawer then you have gone over to the other side and don't even know it.

The worst enemy the reptile community has is the fifth column of people haters who own reptiles and work efficiently online conducting psyops operations against snake owners to sap their will to fight unjust laws.

For the record, I just bought a female Sumatran retic. She has a ferocious feeding response eating frozen/thawed as eagerly as live. I'm in love, she's my girl.