Odd clutch?

I had asked another member on here their opinion and they said I should post it up to get more opinions because they weren't really sure what's going on either. So here is a bit of back story: I bought a group of ball pythons 3/29/13. The one that pertains to this thread turned out to be gravid. She was sold to me as a normal but I was told that she was sold to him (the last owner) as a Vanilla. Long story short, the eggs hatched and I got a clutch of pastels and normals. One normal male I held back because he looked just like his mother. They both have kind of a reduced pattern to them and both have the same hoof print like head stamp (pic below). Well, this year I bred her to a Mojave thinking that maybe she's a funky kind of Special from a different line or something (was going by the head stamp that her and her son both have which I thought looked similar to the special morph).

I cut the eggs on day 57 (8/8/14). One of the babies scared me right away because he looked like he was lacking a lot of color so I thought he was dead. I touched him and at first he didn't move so I cut it open pretty far. I figured he was a normal that had died during incubation which I thought was the reason for the lack of color. My boyfriend (who saw I was upset) kept telling me he thought he saw it move while I was cutting the other eggs and it turns out he's alive and well! Another one (in the same pic below) is really bright and more orange and yellow than any normals I've seen or hatched and even compared to one of the other normals in this same clutch. It's color looks like pic #5 on World of Ball Pythons for Vanilla: http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/vanilla/. The other eggs (2 more) have only shown me their head or belly so it's hard to say what they look like. So far I'm not seeing any that look Mojave to me but I can't say for sure yet I suppose. One of the babies that was hiding himself previously came out of the egg tonight looking a lot like the other one that was lacking color (pics below). I wanted to get your opinion on if these are all just normals of different shades or if there is something else going on here?

Cut at day 57. Incubation temp of 89. Incubator is one that my boyfriend had made for me out of a wine cooler and it's made to blow heat from the bottom through a vent so that it heats evenly throughout and circulates the air with fans. Temps have been steady.

Mother (her hoof print doesn't show up well in this pic but it looks very similar to the older son of hers below):
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...ps1883c75d.jpg

Father:
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...psd9082741.jpg

Older son from a different father last year:
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...psc29974eb.jpg

2 oddballs from this clutch (faded color one is on the left and also has a similar hoof print on his head and the really bright one on the right):
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...ps60710c61.jpg

A close up of the bright one:
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...ps7ce81b26.jpg

Pics of the a different one that came out of the egg tonight (looks similar to the faded one above). No flash was used in these 2 pics:
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...ps05bbe8d3.jpg
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...psc5c462c8.jpg

They look good. Please post pictures after they shed.

More pics and an update: One of the faded out babies seems to have a slight kink in it's neck. Before I cut the eggs, one of the babies was impossible to candle for awhile. I thought maybe it was twins not leaving me enough room to shine light through (also another reason why I thought he was dead at first when I did cut). It seems like his egg was just a little small for his body. Does anyone know if this would get better or stay the same? I've never had any with a kink before so this would be my first.

The 2 left in the egg (seems to be another faded out one and one normal):
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...ps7f5945db.jpg

http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...ps62295d76.jpg

http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9538b001.jpg

These guys have me chomping at the bit I have to tell you. They are nothing like what I would have thought or expected, but to say confidently what they are....can't do it.

The little one with the kink... time will tell. I have one from a pied clutch last year, and he's train wreck. I've never seen one so kinked and knotted and twisted. Logic tells me I should have put him down right after he hatched, but darn it all he fights so hard. He eats and poos and sheds and grows and moves around, albeit nothing at all like a normal ball, so how do I say he should die when he so clearly wants to live?

I admit, my heart pulls me both ways with this boy. It's painful to watch him, he's so clearly handicapped in the worst way. But darn it all he fights so hard, he has learned new ways to strike, coil, eat and move, even though his body won't obey him. I just can't bring myself to put him down.

Your little bit, it may get better on it's own, it may not. Only time will tell. If he does get better, then there shouldn't be a problem. if he doesn't..... well it's up to the baby if he or she can learn to cope like my boy did.

Gale

Thanks Gale! The one with a kink really isn't bad at all. She's moving around fine and I don't think it should cause any issues with eating. Breeding shouldn't be a problem either because it's up too far. All the other babies I've hatched from her before had no kinks or issues so I doubt it's genetic. It would be nice if the kink wasn't there but I guess it is what it is and she's really gorgeous either way.

To my VERY untrained eye...the mother looks pretty darn normal...

It could just be the light but she does look bright! All the alien heads that faced the camera on the outer coil of her body are lacking eyes, but you can see plenty of regular looking alien heads elsewhere on her though...her pattern seems less irregular than most normals I think...atleast in that pic...

I can defiantly see the hoof print head stamp! VERY COOL!

The father on the other hand doesn't look like a normal wild type to me! Not at all!
No alien heads, they're mostly detached donuts, he's got really obvious blushing really high up his body, but they don't appear as flames much on him, I love how the blushing around the dounuts looks like shadows being cast up his body! And his color and pattern are both quite reduced!
I don't see his hoof head stamp...

Its really hard to for me to comment on the baby you think is bright, Id need to see them next to normals to tell any difference I think...

The babies your referring to as faded...those are awesome!
Especially is the update pic! They look very grey scale!
I see whites and shades of grey, pushing black! Especially on one of them, the other seems to have some orange/yellow/brown to the pattern, but obviously very similar to one another!

Do keep us posted! It'll be interesting to see what you end up with after a couple of sheds

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Swayback

The father on the other hand doesn't look like a normal wild type to me! Not at all!
No alien heads, they're mostly detached donuts, he's got really obvious blushing really high up his body, but they don't appear as flames much on him, I love how the blushing around the dounuts looks like shadows being cast up his body! And his color and pattern are both quite reduced!
I don't see his hoof head stamp...

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The father is a Mojave and not related to any of the mother or the baby of hers from last year. That's why he looks nothing like them and doesn't have the same hoof print. However, there were no mojaves in this clutch even though he was the father. None of the babies look like he does.

Ah! I guess I missed that part... In no good at IDing morphs yet...

Im quite taken with the grey babies! Id say your on to something but what do I know...

Im 6th generation stock farmer...that hoof print head stamp kind of has some special meaning to me...if not for hoofed animals I'm not sure where I'd be...but that goes for all of us, huh?

All are FINALLY out and here's what we have. I will take more when they shed. (no flash on last pic the other 2 I think were set to auto setting so I'm not sure if the flash went off or not)

http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...pse4e29fe3.jpg
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...ps3d48acf5.jpg
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...psf799afc2.jpg

You surely have a few holdbacks there to play with. Can't wait to see what happens!!

Wow!! What a funky result from that recent clutch. Is there any possibility that both parents are het for axanthic?
Do you have plans to breed the son back to the mother? It could be pretty revealing about the genetics.

So many breeders sell 66% and 50% PH animals as Normals that anything is possible.

I was just talking to my boyfriend about it and he was telling me about a clutch he hatched out years ago that he thought were axanthic when they hatched but after about 5 sheds they colored up completely. Turned out it was a trait associated with being het for albino. Snakes are weird and amazing :3
I'm excited to see if they stay so light or if they do get any color to them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RellesReptiles

Wow!! What a funky result from that recent clutch. Is there any possibility that both parents are het for axanthic?
Do you have plans to breed the son back to the mother? It could be pretty revealing about the genetics.

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It's possible but I'm not sure how likely it would be for BOTH parents to be het for the specific gene of axanthic without me knowing at least one or the other is? I do have plans to breed her son from her original clutch back to her that has the same hoof print on his head. I'll have to see where things take me after that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RellesReptiles

I was just talking to my boyfriend about it and he was telling me about a clutch he hatched out years ago that he thought were axanthic when they hatched but after about 5 sheds they colored up completely. Turned out it was a trait associated with being het for albino.

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It could be this too but I'm not really sure of all the het albino traits..... Do they have that hoof print on their head and a reduced pattern? I've heard that their alien heads can be outlined with white but I honestly haven't dug for much info on het albinos. It doesn't quite explain the other odd ball that has a weird head stamp, funky pattern and is really bright but it could just be that one is just an odd normal. I guess I'll see how they color up or brighten up with a few sheds and maybe I'll have a better idea or at least better pics to post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BlueMoonExotics

Do they have that hoof print on their head and a reduced pattern?

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I don't think they have the exact headstamp, but I have noticed even with my het pieds that they tend to have a little more head blush than your standard normal.
But yeah, I definitely can't explain the really bright ones showing up or how crazy the son is. Either way it's very exciting!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by coreydelong

So many breeders sell 66% and 50% PH animals as Normals that anything is possible.

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I wonder about that a lot!
My bp came from a breeder that did not seem very professional...of the hundreds of bp available at that expo, I picked the one that stood out as different...after a couple of weeks of scouring the web I've determined he prolly normal...but that's the mystery of genetics! No tellin what's hiding on the inside!
I like to hope these traits I picked him for might just be something genetic...if only het. markers...that would be great too!

Ok, all have shed out and so I took some pics tonight. Still look odd to me but maybe someone can help me figure it out. I still don't see any Mojave but #4 has a certain look to it that almost makes me think of a mojo I suppose lol. These pics were all taken in the same lightbox with the same camera on the same settings. Sorry about some of the shed that happened to tag along and make it into some of the pics :)

Baby #1 - Starting with the one that for the most part looks normal to me
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...ps7b9135a5.jpg
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...ps95e1ddb4.jpg

Baby #2 - One of three that looked "faded" in the egg
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4ef395e5.jpg
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...ps13b76020.jpg
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...pse087501a.jpg

Baby #3 - Two of three that looked "faded" in the egg. This one is also the one that has a slight kink in her neck and shares what looks like the very same hoof print that her older brother and mother have
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...ps268608cb.jpg
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...ps24f3c95e.jpg

Baby #4 - Three of three that had the "faded" look. This one is even more bright than the previous 2. Even if it's a normal, I will still be holding her back I think.
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...psc4a98366.jpg
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...ps00c25567.jpg

Baby #5 - This is the "yellowish orangish" one that had the funky pattern. Still does if you ask me.
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...psc1c8cb9b.jpg
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...psc00c72be.jpg
http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/...psc4f0b256.jpg

Really cool! They look great!
If I were you I would be holding back the entire clutch haha
I think your best bet is to breed back to mom and also if you can get a visual albino to breed the light babies to when they're old enough that could prove out the het albino theory, since they did color up a bit.
This is definitely an exciting project! I can't wait to see what else you produce from it :)

Thanks! After their shed they don't really look axanthic to me but maybe Fire or Sulfer or possibly Vanilla but I have 0 experience with any of those morphs to be sure though. Hoping I can figure it out! :)

Good luck!

This is without a doubt the head-scratching craziest clutch to me!

baby #1, looks like a pretty standard nice normal. See them everywhere.

Babies 2-4, I'd call vanilla almost, but they don't have the prominent faded head of a vanilla. But to have 3 that all look so much alike? I find it hard to just call them "light normals".

And #5 I'd call a fire, if it had some blushing or flames and a bit more of a head fade.

About the best I can say for sure about them right now is, I'm jealous you hatched so many nice babies. That and... I'm glad I'm not the one trying to figure them out!! :)

I really suspect there is some kind of recessive gene at play here. Axanthic is first to come to mind, considering how much like an axanthic that one baby looked in the egg. My guess is, mom is het. And those creamy babies are as well. Problem is you said they were all girls. So you can't even breed one back to mom to see what is going on. I think at this point, I'd start looking for a 100% het axanthic male, since those are most affordable, and put him to mom and later on the creamy girls.

I know there are no absolute markers to look for to identify a het of any kind that are right 100% of the time. But the bigger guys will tell you, there are clues to look for, especially when looking at a group of normals for possible hets. And I swear, if I were looking at your clutch for possible hets, I'd be all over those creamy babies in a heartbeat.

In fact, they look a LOT like the creamy light normal female I make my vanillas with. What do you think? This is my only decent photo of her right now, but can you see how creamy she is?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...kes/Kaiya1.jpg

People thin she is a morph all the time. She's been called a Hypo, a Vanilla and something else, I forget what.

Gale

Quote. " really suspect there is some kind of recessive gene at play here. Axanthic is first to come to mind, considering how much like an axanthic that one baby looked in the egg. My guess is, mom is het. And those creamy babies are as well. Problem is you said they were all girls. So you can't even breed one back to mom to see what is going on. I think at this point, I'd start looking for a 100% het axanthic male, since those are most affordable, and put him to mom and later on the creamy girls.

I know there are no absolute markers to look for to identify a het of any kind that are right 100% of the time. But the bigger guys will tell you, there are clues to look for, especially when looking at a group of normals for possible hets. And I swear, if I were looking at your clutch for possible hets, I'd be all over those creamy babies in a heartbeat. "



Gale[/QUOTE]
I agree you should probably get an axanthic or her axanthic male to breed to her. Problem though, is not all axanthic lines are compatible...... Could take awhile.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by angllady2

This is without a doubt the head-scratching craziest clutch to me!

baby #1, looks like a pretty standard nice normal. See them everywhere.

Babies 2-4, I'd call vanilla almost, but they don't have the prominent faded head of a vanilla. But to have 3 that all look so much alike? I find it hard to just call them "light normals".

And #5 I'd call a fire, if it had some blushing or flames and a bit more of a head fade.

About the best I can say for sure about them right now is, I'm jealous you hatched so many nice babies. That and... I'm glad I'm not the one trying to figure them out!! :)

I really suspect there is some kind of recessive gene at play here. Axanthic is first to come to mind, considering how much like an axanthic that one baby looked in the egg. My guess is, mom is het. And those creamy babies are as well. Problem is you said they were all girls. So you can't even breed one back to mom to see what is going on. I think at this point, I'd start looking for a 100% het axanthic male, since those are most affordable, and put him to mom and later on the creamy girls.

I know there are no absolute markers to look for to identify a het of any kind that are right 100% of the time. But the bigger guys will tell you, there are clues to look for, especially when looking at a group of normals for possible hets. And I swear, if I were looking at your clutch for possible hets, I'd be all over those creamy babies in a heartbeat.

In fact, they look a LOT like the creamy light normal female I make my vanillas with. What do you think? This is my only decent photo of her right now, but can you see how creamy she is?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...kes/Kaiya1.jpg

People thin she is a morph all the time. She's been called a Hypo, a Vanilla and something else, I forget what.

Gale

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I agree that 3 "light normals" in one clutch kinda makes me think they aren't just normals.

It's funny you mentioned that #5 would look like a fire if there was blushing and flames...I didn't catch it in the pics but there are a few flames that look a lot like yellow belly flames to me just not as many. This one thrown into the mix only makes it harder to figure out what's going on.

Yup, all girls. I couldn't believe it either so I popped them like 3 times now lol. I do however have their older brother. Although he doesn't have the creamy color, he does have the head stamp and reduced pattern, so maybe he can show me what's going on. He is showing plugs now but I'm fattening up Mom right now.

They do look creamy like your girl. She's a normal? I can't see the rest of her in that pic but I would probably think she's a morph too lol. Their mother isn't as light but I know I've mentioned to you before that she is lighter.