Thrifty purchasing...

I'm a bit worried and confused about a current snake listed for sale. I have made arangements to pick her up tomorrow but I might be getting a non healthy snake. The story is it was some guys snake and during a divorce he left it with the woman. I'm paying less than the asking price by the way. This is the post: 2012 female pastel 100% het orange ghost ball python. She is 610 grams and would do best being housed alone majority of time as she does not eat well if housed with another snake. She otherwise will eat rats great, is docile, and acts like a ball python. Health , sex, genetics is known for sure without a doubt. Adoption fee $200 . Must have own supplies for her. Pics are with a flash and without. Questions welcome"

I'm thinking that a 2012 should weigh a bit more than 610 grams... http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...elhetghost.jpg

That's low for a 2012, but she looks fine in the pic. Probably just a picky eater...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alan12013

I'm a bit worried and confused about a current snake listed for sale. I have made arangements to pick her up tomorrow but I might be getting a non healthy snake. The story is it was some guys snake and during a divorce he left it with the woman. I'm paying less than the asking price by the way. This is the post: 2012 female pastel 100% het orange ghost ball python. She is 610 grams and would do best being housed alone majority of time as she does not eat well if housed with another snake. She otherwise will eat rats great, is docile, and acts like a ball python. Health , sex, genetics is known for sure without a doubt. Adoption fee $200 . Must have own supplies for her. Pics are with a flash and without. Questions welcome"

I'm thinking that a 2012 should weigh a bit more than 610 grams... http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...elhetghost.jpg

---

I have a 2012 Mojave female sitting at 738g


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alan12013

would do best being housed alone majority of time as she does not eat well if housed with another snake.

---

That's pretty typical of ball pythons in general. Who knows how long he kept her with another snake and she refused to eat. After a year and a half most ball pythons will weigh more than that, but some are picky eaters or have an uneducated owner. Also I would be skeptical of the het hypo part from an inexperienced owner.

Ok cool thanks guys. I found out the owner is a breeder that has put breeding on the back burner but has over 50 snakes and this one is housed with at least one other. I am meeting the woman (she is the breeder) tomorrow hopefully to get this girl. I might work with her more to pick up some others such as a Mojave female and a couple others. Het's always seem strange when you see some one's collection and they're all say het orange ghost but then they're selling one that was hatched same time as the others that's het something completely different. Oh well I don't ask questions that I already know the answer too... I'm picking up this snake to work on my pastel breeding only. The plan is to start from the ground up no matter the time or cost. I will say that recently I do think a bit differen't when it comes to quality of patterns with these animals. You guys helped me out in a previous post I had relating to spider quality but we didn't talk about pastels. I can see very distinct differences between the brightness of yellows and the amount of white (reduced pattern) between high and low quality pastels. This has to be polygenic like in leopard geckos??? This answer could save me a year or 5... I want to start with great quality and build up from there. I know the common answer is "buy a good animal froma quality breeder" but I'm under the impression that I could breed 2 not so good quality and just keep the best ones. Keep in mind I might sound like I know what I am talking about but I am completely lost still, learning has been a bit like playing asteroids for me thus far.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alan12013

this one is housed with at least one other.

they all say het orange ghost

Oh well I don't ask questions that I already know the answer to

The plan is to start from the ground up no matter the time or cost.

I want to start with great quality and build up from there.

---

You want to start with quality, and time and cost are not a factor, yet you're buying an underweight female(?) from a sketchy breeder, who marks everything het ghost, houses multiple snakes together, and is selling this snake that came from a broken home as a result of a divorce?

Ok I misspoke greatly there! I want to breed my own quality animals from not so great quality. I didn't mean that I want to buy quality then start breeding multi gene animals. As far as time and cost I meant that it will cost me more to house the less quality animals and cost me in time that I could be making money buy selling snakes at a higher cost that would reflect the initial quality. What I meant to say did not come out right at all, I apologize. I'm a very stubborn person and have accomplished some pretty crazy feats by going against the grain but I stick to my feelings about things. As a lover of animals and a hobbiest I think it will fulfill my desire more so to buy these less quality animals and start trying to breed my own single genes with great quality then start packing genes on between my several "single gene quality" "projects". This will help me learn a lot of fundimentals whether its the best way or not I think it would prove to be the most educational for me doing it this way. Don't get me wrong once I have learned enough to compete in knowledge with veterans then I will feel safe about buying snakes from very responsible breeders.

Hey Alan12013. Can you let me know if they are a good source and what have you please? I live in Eugene myself and this person is advertising for the eugene area too on my Craigslist here. Not sure if that helps. I am in the market currently and it would help as I don't know anyone around this area for snakes. Thanks a ton!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alan12013

Don't get me wrong once I have learned enough to compete in knowledge with veterans then I will feel safe about buying snakes from very responsible breeders.

---

:confusd:

You can't make your own high quality animals when your jump off point is made up of low quality animals. Spend the extra few bucks and buy from someone who seems to have their business in order (aka not having multiple snake housed together, unreliable 'het' labeling, etc). Don't just plan on breeding low quality animals until you just happen to hatch some good ones. You want a strong foundation before you start building a house! If time and money are no issue, buy some really nice young females and spend some time growing them!

Selective breeding is not only about starting off with quality animals. It is also about taking whatever you have, and making it better. One absolutely could start off with a low quality pastel, and by pairing it with nice light normals and holding back the best hatchlings, get some much better pastels within a few generations.

I don't quite get the desire to purposely start out with low quality, though. Although, I can see that it would be very fulfilling to reach the point where you have some very very nice pastels just by starting with a single low quality male and doing selective breeding from there.

Start with single genes? Yes, I can see that, too. It is a lot harder to know what quality of pastel you have when it is a 3 gene snake than a single gene, so there is at least some sense to it.

I wouldn't recommend this path. You won't make money, nor probably even break even, and you might have a lot of trouble selling off your extras, though. But if it is what you want, if it is what excites you, then I say go for it.

But, consider whether or not THIS snake is the right choice. There are all sorts of red flags in the info you have posted. My biggest concern is whether or not this snake is healthy. Please, if you decide to go through with this, look it over very carefully before finalizing the purchase.

Good luck!

So about "safe" now... I take a great deal of pride in every thing I do. If in 7 years from now some one bought a snake from me I would want to proudly say that I myself know it's lineage and put the time and effort into it to produce this animal. If I were to buy from an already really reputable breeder I feel like it wouldn't have as much personal value at this time as I'm not too familiar with the community and still a newb. So the hard work of the breeder would barely be recognized by me. I wouldn't feel any different if I bought a really nice one that you sold me, one from a large seller, or a special line like NERDS "lemon" in the lemon pastel right now because I just don't know enough. Until I have a better knowledge of who is breeding and what they are breeding for I wouldn't be able to appreciate the animal or the breeders work as much as I should. It will take a couple years probably for me to get to the level of knowing the people in the community and what they're doing. Therefore I will go ahead and start my own projects while I learn. The projects that I want to do are like mentioned, single gene's bred BY ME for quality. Meanwhile I will take the time to post on the forums and see what people are doing and get a feel for things. I could be wrong and I do appreciate all advice and criticism trust me, but I think that in 5 years from now I will be as fluent in snakes as I have became with all my previous adventures from communications, electronics, food, etc and business.

Thanks Casey for your post, that's basically what I was trying to say. It's all about pride with me. With my previous jobs to include what I do now as a cafe and food cart owner I know every detail. I can tell people why or why not to buy a product and if I know that no corners were cut in the process I will tell people that and explain it. If I bought a snake from a breeder I'd want to tell my potential customers all about that breeder and why I chose them over others. Whether or not it makes a difference to others it does to me :) I'm a weird one. I will also re-consider this purchase. There are red flags and I do have much more information but am not going to mention publicly.

I will also get a feel for this breeder in Eugene and report back to you via PM. Also I could put you in contact with some people up here in the Vancouver area if you want. Waiting 5 years and talking to me would work too :P I hope anyway.

I decided against the stressed out animal and got one that I know eats and was being taken care of. I took her home tonight. http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file.../1/female1.jpgShe is pretty good quality, better than my male pastel. Looks like I am going to have to build myself a rack asap!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alan12013

I decided against the stressed out animal and got one that I know eats and was being taken care of.

---

I think you made a good choice. :gj:

The problem i see when you start out with low-quality pastels and work towards higher quality is not that it isnt possible. It is definitively possible.

The problem is that others have been there and have done it successfully after starting in 1995. You can decide to start from scratch, or you can decide to stand on the shoulders of giants. I dont see why you should pretend that it is still 1995, and start from scratch, when others have already done it, and you can make use of their work by paying a bit more for an absolutely stellar pastel.

The second problem is the market. The market for basic single-gene morphs is saturated and dead. In the end, many of these end up on craigslist for free, or end up in reptile sanctuaries, or end up in even worse situation. When buying animals for breeding, you should not buy from that bottom tier of the market, and when breeding, you should try to produce animals that are better than that. The problem is real, and hatching more normals and more low-quality pastels and normal-looking hets will make the problem worse.

So i would be open to the idea that it is 2014, not 1995, and that you can buy the genes that others have been refining for 20 years.


Others are producing stellar pastels as a side-product of their multi-gene projects right now. Other breeders that start out with single-gene morphs will buy an absolutely stellar pastel right now. So when your plan is successful, what will you have accomplished? You will have accomplished nothing that others did not already accomplish in 2005. But you will have contributed to the problem that more and more normals end up in reptile sanctuaries and in other bad situations. You will have produced feeders for snakes that eat other snakes.

Quote:

---

I take a great deal of pride in every thing I do. If in 7 years from now some one bought a snake from me I would want to proudly say that I myself know it's lineage and put the time and effort into it to produce this animal. If I were to buy from an already really reputable breeder I feel like it wouldn't have as much personal value at this time as I'm not too familiar with the community and still a newb. So the hard work of the breeder would barely be recognized by me.

---

7 years from now, people will assume your stellar super pastel was the by-product of a 6-gene to 4-gene breeding, or that you purchased really really good pastels in 2008 or something. Noone will care about your story how you turned crappy pastels into nice pastels, because you did it 20 years too late. 7 years from now, other people that start with absolutely stellar examples of single-gene morphs today in 2014, will produce these stellar single-gene morphs from multi-gene to multi-gene breedings. So noone will be interested in buying your stuff.

People are interested in stellar quality pastels and fires and yellowbellys and mojaves TODAY, but in 7 years, new and aspiring breeders wont touch these with a 7-foot pole. They will look for stellar examples of enchi clown, and stellar examples of striped purple passions, and stellar jigsaws and stellar pastave enchis and stellar lightning pieds. If you can get personal pride out of that scenario, then thats good, because that will be pretty much the only thing you get out of it.

Line-breeding still makes sense, but it works differently now. For example, someone might adjust his pairings in such a way that he hatches out many mochis and many super enchi mojaves. And out of these dozens of mochis and super enchi mojaves, he will hold back the top 2% or the top 5%. So he will refine the mochi combo and the super enchi mojave combo until they reach show quality and people will need their sunglasses when they get posted in the picture section. And it will be a side-project, and he will try to get some high quality fire or banana into it and things like that. And in 7 years at a reptile show people ask "WHAAAT? thats really just a super mochi, you mean, just super enchi and mojave? OMG thats the best super enchi mojave ive ever seen, i cannot believe its really just these 3 genes". And your stellar basic single-gene morphs will be hard to sell for 50 dollars.

I appreciate people that are passionate about refining genes and line-breeding, they do great work and are important, stacking up the genes is one part of it, refining the genes is just as important. So i like it when people successfully pull off a project like this, and i like the results (Brian Gundys Mojaves come to mind). But it needs to make sense. Maybe Brian Gundy started the project with average mojaves, or with any mojaves he could get, so it started out similar to how you want to start out. But he started much earlier, when things were different, and is getting rewarded for it right now.

:cool: I'm late to the party

That was some really good information! Thank you, I'll heed that advice. I don't want to offend anyone BUT I'm just so used to advice equivocal to "line breeding won't work, you're wrong" by people who don't have a clue or jump on band wagons. I've dealt with it so much in my previous jobs that I've become immune to it. It's for that reason I will usually stick to my guns if I have an idea about something instead of doing what every one else does. I understand what you are talking about when it comes to people doing quality line breeding for 20 years and starting with what they have achieved. You've helped change how I think and will approach breeding now. Maybe I can have my one pet project JUST this year and stick to only the snakes I currently have since I've already jumped the gun :/ Time is also a factor like you mentioned and line breeding with Pastels has been done so I wouldn't really be doing anything except helping my personal stock get a little better than average within a few years. All that in mined hopefully next year I will know enough to purchase from the breeders that I think are the best. Like you mention with Brian Gundy's Mojaves or like what NERD did with the Pastel, these are the things that I need to learn and those are the "giants" in which shoulders I want to be standing on when I start as oppose to just a "reputable breeder" that's probably just a guy who happens to breed quality snakes without a deeper understanding and passion for what he/she is doing. Regarding market saturation, I would never want to contribute to this and would try my best as a hobbiest to hold onto as many as I could if I didn't know a good home for them. I see so many free ball pythons pop up on craigslist or for 20 bucks and it makes me sad. I even recently considered purchasing 3 normals (2 male 1 female) that were all housed together just to rescue them for 50 dollars with tank and accessories included. The cafe affords me to meet tons and tons of regular customers that I've talked to and most have kids or relatives that would buy a snake or chameleon from me and I trust they would return them if needed. Thanks again for the helpful advice. Post script: Your signature rocks. A couple jokes come to mind regarding another 1/3 of the worlds economy but I'll keep that to myself...

In 2002 I purchased my first mojave from Dan and Colette Southerland (The Snake Keeper). My friend Dwayne Richard (Dan and Colette's partner) along with Dan and Colette hand picked what they thought were the best 3 mojaves that they produced that season. I met Dan, Colette and Dwayne at their booth at the Anaheim Show and picked from this group of 3 mojaves. These mojaves were being held off of the table until I had made my choice. That mojave was by far the nicest looking mojave I had ever seen. I took that snake home and in a few months bred him to several of my best looking normals, not just any normals, but they had to explode with color. From there I bred those babies back to their parents and kept holding back the best ones and breeding from them. If I had to take a guess I'd say that 80 to 90 % of the snakes in my collection were produced by me. Most people don't realize that most of my pastels are related, all of my mojaves and mojave combos are related, all of my pieds are related, all of my clowns are related, all of my crystals and the list goes on.

I always recommend that new ball python breeders should start off by purchasing the snake they have been dreaming about owning. If the snake is outrageously expensive then better yet. I've saved up for over a year to purchase several of the snakes that I wanted in my collection.

It was while breeding colubrids that I realized that if I produced a very high quality baby king snake I could ask a higher price and if the quality was there I could get 2 and sometimes 3 times over the market value for the kings, milks and corns that I sold. When I switched over to ball pythons I mostly purchased from those breeders that were actively focused on incorporating a selective breeding program.

If you want to produce beautiful snakes, breed from beautiful snakes, if you want to produce beautiful horses then breed from beautiful horses and if you want to produce beautiful kids, well you get the picture....LOL



Brian Gundy / For Goodness Snakes / 408-981-6694 / fgsnakes@sbcglobal.net

Brian, thank you for the response on my thread! I recently decided as a life choice to get into this and have only acquired a pair of pastels and ghosts as well as what I believe to be an amazing spider. I want to build up a nice set of normals too all with various outstanding traits that I can use as you did with your Mojave to normal breeding. I want a good selective breeding breeding program first and foremost before the "gene packing" begins. I'm also setting money aside to buy from a big name such as yourself for my "dream snakes". I just didn't want to purchase a dream snake first year without being able to fully understand and appreciate what I was getting. That being said I wouldn't be offended if you kept me in mind if you have any amazing single genes or normals that you think would be useful :) I want to have my own stock built up and keep most of what I produce so I can breed the best to the best or whatever I think would be most suited for the desired results. What you mentioned about your colubrids makes sense to me and that's what I'm hoping for. I would love to have a collection where I could say that 80-90% were produced by me. I think that there is some logic that needs to be applied when bringing outside quality snakes into the collection instead of willy nilly or flat out only buying expensive quality snakes from the beginning unless you have tons of money to spend on snakes of all types and morphs.

So if my parents are ugly then... :/

Agreed. Start with quality and u wont get let down. I got my fav genes and started from there. Small start small projct. I have what I belive ur o be stunning looking snakes. And what I would want to buy some of these 5 gene may be expensive and contain multi genes but they are not visually stunning. Lessers ghosts and what not. It just doesnt look good.

My start up is two beautiful balls
Bumble bee female
Pastave male

End game: mojave killer bee
And everything inbetween is beautitul and stunning yellow and black contrast with 3 12% options

It sounds like you're conflicted about what you want - some of your posts sound very "snake rescue organization" and some sound more like "snake breeder" -- if you have a knack for rescue/rehabilitation/rehoming, that's a really important niche! It could be financially neutral with some reasonable adoption fees and a good network of veterinarians and foster homes. Just don't mix the two. When I bring home a stray cat, I don't plan to breed it - there are plenty of stray cats who already need homes. I still bring home stray cats...

There are thrifty ways to cut costs, like purchasing bowls at thrift stores; making hides (freezer boxes are awesome); Buying rats in bulk (frozen); Using newspaper or bulk bedding. I even assembled my own quarantine tank out of an old aquarium, some plexiglass & flex tape.

There are great ways to cut costs without sacrificing the animals' safety and while producing valuable offspring.