Quandary regarding my future breeding plans! What would you do?

Long time lurker, first time poster. I'll get to the point.

I recently decided that I wanted to get into breeding balls, so I picked up a few juvenile males (Pastel, Yellow Belly, Het Ultramel) with the intent of breeding them in the future. I picked up a Spider female to pair up with the Pastel and aim for bumblebees, and was going to pick up a female Yellow Belly to aim for Ivories.

However; I had the chance to grab three big normal females for next to nothing. They're 4,000grams, 2,200 grams, and 1800 grams. Now I'm at the impasse as to where to go from here. Should I try to pick up a 2-3 gene male to breed to all of them, and put the pastel/yellow belly projects on the back burner? Heck, should I sell off the Pastel and Yellow Belly to fund a 3-gene? If purchasing a 3-gene is a good option, what genetics should I look for in order to get the best bang for my buck?

Furthermore...As I mentioned, I'm new at this...how large of a male will I want to breed with the 4,000 gram girl? I just have this worst case fantasy scenario playing out in my head where I put a 1,200gram male in there to attempt breeding and wake up to a cannibalized snake...

So! Could I have some advice? What would *you* guys do from here?

How soon did you expect clutches? And how many clutches are you looking at? If you're shooting for this year, may want to go with those normal females...

If you're looking at a few years down the road, I'd take a look at some combos you can make with the males you have, and then pick up some females depending on what you like.

To be honest, you've already started off on the wrong foot. You have no plan, you're already male heavy, and you're looking at the most common genes out there...

Also...1 Pastel male + 1 Yellowbelly male does not = a 3 gene male...

Yeah plan a bit more. Find amorph u like and aim for that or ur passion will be empty. I took some favs as babies and have mulitple oucomes next year. I have two under yearlings. A bee female and a pastave male. I lobe all prints and outcomes so im excited thru and tru. . 2 two genes can make norms singles duble triples and maybe a mojave bee or killer. I have the outcome calculator but image hosing is a mess on a cell phone. Allni know is I got like 9 optional morphs and 3 are 12%ers. Those are odds anybody will like

i agree, i hate to have to say this, but sho220 is right, strategically this is a very bad start.

single-gene pastel male, single-gene yellowbelly male, het ultramel male.... even if they look really nice and are good examples of the morph, none of these is useful for breeding in 2014.

other new hobby breeders start out with single or double gene females and triple gene males, or with visual recessives and visual recessives with extra genes and 100% hets with extra genes. some hobby breeders and small breeders that have been at it longer now work with BPs that have 4 genes or 5 genes or 6 genes, or with visual recessives + 3 extra genes, or with visual double recessives.

the market for single-gene morph males and for hets without extra genes and for normal females is saturated, prices are incredibly low, and everything is so advanced that most breeders would not even consider buying and pairing up anything that is so genetically weak. (morphs that are hot and new and rare and expensive are the exception).

if you breed a triple gene male to normal females, you cannot advance, the best you can hatch out is a similar triple gene, and thats rare. both parents need to contribute something if you want a chance to advance.

the ideas you are currently considering produce 50% normals and single-gene morphs (triple gene to normal), or even 75% normals and single-gene morphs (YB to YB). these are difficult to sell, and if you want fair prices that are high enough to justify the effort and to recoup some of your costs, these wont help you. you might be forced to keep them, or to sell them at really low prices. in the meantime, others produce clutches where the hatchlings have 3 genes or more on average, and only occasionally produce a normal or a single-gene hatchling, and hatch out 5 gene combos just as often as they hatch out single gene morphs. for them, its no big deal to wholesale their normals and single-gene hatchlings at really low prices, because these only make up a small percentage of the production.

you really need to re-think it all. if you start out the way others did 15 or 20 years ago, you wont catch up, the market is too far ahead of you. if you want a bee or an ivory, dont breed pastel to spider or YB to YB, just buy them. and when you really want to breed, consider buying BPs like a really good looking female bee hatchling or female ivory hatchling. one year later, buy a really good looking triple gene or quadruple gene male. that would be a plan that gives you chances to advance and compete, when you start out with producing clutches where most of the hatchlings are double-gene and triple-gene.

I'm a little surprised a long time lurker started out with males. "Get females first, give them time to get up to size" is very common advice, and always has been, at least since '07 when I joined this forum. Lately "don't use single codom males" has also become quite common.

But... you are where you are. So, now to make a plan for how to proceed. First of all... definitely MAKE A PLAN. It can be flexible. It is good that you have in mind making bumblebees and ivories. Bumblebees are attractive and popular and will most likely continue to be so in the pet market for quite some time, although they no longer have much value since they are made of 2 of the cheapest and most common genes. Ivories are one of my personal favorites, and have the bonus of producing all yellow bellies when they are bred, and yellow belly does some nifty things in combos.

You may want to turn around and sell those 2 single gene codom males you just bought. But you most likely won't get back what you paid for them, and certainly won't get enough to pay for a 2 or 3 gene male, but it'll stop them taking up space and eating food and will at least contribute towards that 2 or 3 gene male. But, if you have patience (like...YEARS) or are just stubborn, you can work from the ones you have. Or, something kind of in the middle, if you've had those normal females long enough they are quarantined, you could start throwing your males with them now, and then hold back some of the single gene females you'll (hopefully) get, sell off all the males (including the adults) and normal babies, and then buy the 2 or 3 gene male to use for the next round of clutches. But it might take quite some time before you get clutches, and you might have trouble selling off all those low value common snakes.

The most important thing is to do what you want. For example, I really want a pied someday. Common wisdom says that they are cheap enough now that I should just buy one. But for some reason I can't fully explain, I really want to see that spotted baby coming out of an egg that came from non-spotted parents. I find that aspect of recessive genes to be unbelievably cool. But that doesn't mean I have to breed het pied to het pied. I'll probably end up doing something like pastel het pied x mojave het pied. Or using double hets. That way, although I'm still only producing 25% pieds, the non-pied babies still have a high chance of being something other than normal.

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Originally Posted by Suimaru

Long time lurker, first time poster. I'll get to the point.

I recently decided that I wanted to get into breeding balls, so I picked up a few juvenile males (Pastel, Yellow Belly, Het Ultramel) with the intent of breeding them in the future. I picked up a Spider female to pair up with the Pastel and aim for bumblebees, and was going to pick up a female Yellow Belly to aim for Ivories.

However; I had the chance to grab three big normal females for next to nothing. They're 4,000grams, 2,200 grams, and 1800 grams. Now I'm at the impasse as to where to go from here. Should I try to pick up a 2-3 gene male to breed to all of them, and put the pastel/yellow belly projects on the back burner? Heck, should I sell off the Pastel and Yellow Belly to fund a 3-gene? If purchasing a 3-gene is a good option, what genetics should I look for in order to get the best bang for my buck?

Furthermore...As I mentioned, I'm new at this...how large of a male will I want to breed with the 4,000 gram girl? I just have this worst case fantasy scenario playing out in my head where I put a 1,200gram male in there to attempt breeding and wake up to a cannibalized snake...

So! Could I have some advice? What would *you* guys do from here?

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Aswell "bang for your buck" it almost sounds like you expect some good income out of your first season!

Remember its a hobby with some nice incentives to 90% of the breeders here, This being my 2nd year i still am paying off everything iv purchased with selling off babies, From food/bedding/ARS rack/Snakes!!!

Aswell its not always this case, but many snakes will take time to settle in before breeding, So most people plan on a few month cooldown for new females.

This being the case, grab the 3 females, And relax on them, With your other snakes, Use that 4-6 months to Plan out what you want, plan out your finances, and plan out your goal in the end! Nothing with these snakes is quick, but everything often is slow/stressful/never to go as plan, From females not eating at the 1000g mark to that gorgeous 3-4 gene Stud of a male, being lazy and doesn't want any fun with the ladies...

So please step back and realize nothing here is a quick buck! Enjoy it, let it takes its time and embrace it with these wildly addicting animals!

dont even consider breeding these single gene males to normal females. just to make that clear.

if you want these 3 normal females, get a better male for that.

this being said, i think there is one alternative. so, you are now stuck with pastel, yellowbelly and het ultramel.

males grow up rapidly. much faster than females. so the counter-intuitive strategy would be: get a double gene female that works well with yellowbelly. something with fire and/or enchi. something nice, a really nice double gene female. and then go against the rules and breed your yellowbelly male to that double gene female. chances are 1 in 8 that you hit the triple gene, male or female, and 3 in 8 that you hit a double gene, male or female. now what you really want is to get a double gene male or triple gene male from that very first clutch. chances for that are 1 in 4. the female triple gene would also be a holdback. anyway, hope for that male, double or triple gene, raise it up, and replace that single-gene yellowbelly male.

lets say you do this with two females, both very nice double-gene females. breed the male to both, get a holdback male, breed the holdback to the other female, to combine the genes from the first female with the genes from the second female.

the problem is, you got a single-gene pastel male as well. yellowbelly has some potential, pastel is everywhere. adding pastel to stuff gets you nowhere, pastel has already been added to everything and the combos that work well with pastel have been figured out. a male pewter or pastave or bee is cheap enough, basic double gene combos with pastel are abundant on the market.

then there is the het ultramel male. you could play a game similar to what i outlined for the yellowbelly. get a visual ultramel enchi female. hope to get a visual ultramel male, with or without enchi, in the first clutch, replace dad as soon as possible.


this breaks many rules of thumb, but it follows some other rules: to progress, both the male and the female have to contribute something. and females are important, get females first, and in your situation with 3 males and no females, it simplifies into: get females.

if you want to work with normal females, you better have a triple gene powerhouse male, otherwise it makes no sense. and if you want to work with the het ultramel male and the yellowbelly male you have now (forget the pastel), better get awesome females, hope to hatch out males that can replace dad, and quickly raise them up.

in a perfect world, you would stay away from basic single-gene codominant males and het males and would also stay away from normal females. but the situation is what it is.


by the way, a while back, BHB reptiles had an offer: 3 normal ball python hatchlings for 50 dollars, you choose the gender. it was a special offer, but it was available for at least a month or two. so if you are going to spend a whopping 50 dollars on 3 female hatchlings, better make sure they come from one of the best breeders in the business and that they are in perfect health and have eaten. now, starting from this value, add 2 or 3 years of food, not sustenance feeding, but feeding for weight gain. calculate the cost. and when you consider the cost of the amount of food that it takes to get a female up to size, with an initial investment of 16.70 dollars for the female, you get a value. and when you find big females on the market that are cheaper than that, then you know that they are pets and that noone buys them to breed them. when the price for big females matches the result of your calculation, then you know that raising them up is a zero-sum game. such calculations should influence your decisions, there is work associated with each BP, and there are running costs, i only mentioned food.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

i hate to have to say this, but sho220 is right

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It's a hard thing to admit. I know. My wife tells me all the time...:)

Best article I've read since I started breeding......

http://ballpythonbreeder.com/2012/02...thon-breeders/

Anyways.... keep those Normal girls for future use. The Spider could fare you well also.

As far as the males, I would get back as much as you can from them and start over. No one really purposely breeds for Bees these days. They are fallout from larger projects. Same with Super Pastels.

I would pick up a nice triple gene and maybe even a double gene male as a backup plan. I recently picked up a pair of triple gene males to go with my Normal girls and a few other morphs as well. Weight wise, I have been pairing a 650g Nuclear Pinstripe with a 3300g 0.1 Normal and a 2600g 0.1 Pastel. They get along just fine, and he's getting the job done.

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Originally Posted by coreydelong

No one really purposely breeds for Bees these days. They are fallout from larger projects. Same with Super Pastels.

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Same could be said about every other combo out there. The "more equals better" philosophy has taken over ball python breeding. Quality is rarely taken into account. It's how many genes can I get crammed into a male for the lowest price so I can put him with a female that has as many genes crammed into her as I can afford.

A clean bright Bumblebee wows me more than a lot of the 3,4,5+ gene messes I see being produced these days...

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Originally Posted by sho220

Same could be said about every other combo out there. The "more equals better" philosophy has taken over ball python breeding. Quality is rarely taken into account. It's how many genes can I get crammed into a male for the lowest price so I can put him with a female that has as many genes crammed into her as I can afford.

A clean bright Bumblebee wows me more than a lot of the 3,4,5+ gene messes I see being produced these days...

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Thank you SO much for saying this. As I was reading some of the posts that have been posted since my earlier one (and I'll admit, mine even leans that way), it made me really sad to see that apparently the only thing worth breeding for in BP is to cram more genes into a single snake.

I've long wondered why in the corn snake world, people REALLY appreciate a good line bred normal. They don't sell for a fortune (not even compared to other corns), but people appreciate them, and I have the impression they sell easily. Of course, they have names, cuz they are line bred for specific traits, so they are called Okeetees or Miamis or the like. But they don't carry a single "reproducible genetic trait" in the sense of Mendelian genetics. Yet in contrast (and it's really the contrast I've wondered about), people in the BP world not only don't appreciate it, they tell you not to do it. It's a waste. No one does that. You won't be able to find buyers.

I suspect part of it is the difference in what genes are available. Most corn genes are recessive. That slows down breeding projects, and gives you more opportunities to do some selective breeding. Most BP genes are codom, so you just go from one gene to 2 to 4 to 8 in only 3 generations. Well... you could try anyway! :)

So I can see why the trend is there, but not to the point where selective breeding is very limited in the BP world. WHY aren't there more people working on making FANTASTIC pastels? (or for Pythonfriend and any others who think pastels are totally worthless...pick your favorite common morph).

I will say that I'm glad that one of the most commonly repeated pieces of advice is to work with what you like...work with what excites you. I just wish there were more people who could get excited for someone who is excited about producing the best <insert single gene here> the world has ever seen, instead of telling them there is no point.

I think there are a few factors at play, but most of those factors come down to supply and demand.

I do NOT mean people think they're going to turn a profit - that isn't it, at all. I've said before and others have said (and I agree with them) that breeding isn't really profitable. It's more about... bang for your buck. Corn snake morphs aren't, so far as I know, selling for thousands and thousands of dollars. A LOT of BP morphs/combos are, because the demand exceeds the supply in a lot of ways. That means people who want one of these need to either: a-) Make (breed) it themselves, or b-) find some way to generate some of their money back from that animal. Conversely, the single gene and noms have a higher supply and a lower demand. Which means, of course, they're *monetarily* worthless. If you think that's an insult, please see my signature for exactly what sort of snakes I own, by the way.

Cornsnakes have been popular pets for longer, bred for pretty colors longer, and are still far more common for somebody to have as a pet than a BP. Of BP, most people's pets are normals, yeah, but ... normals and single genes are often a 'byproduct' of combo breeding. They are produced in far, far greater quantities than there are pet homes for them. There are still people breeding them on their own and that's fine, but finding homes for them isn't easy and the competition is fierce. My state's reptile rescue is DROWNING in normal ball pythons, because they're so common. I have had people offer me FREE male normals and common single genes, or just for the cost of shipping because...

Where do the all go?

Right now, as I see it, the biggest problem with BP breeding is that the balance between their popularity as breeders and their popularity as pets is off.

I don't think people breeding is bad. I'm not coming down on anyone for breeding, regardless of what they breed and I think there should be appreciation for breeders who REALLY care about the quality and health of their animals. I just also think that there are an awful lot of normals and pastels floating around, and that people saying 'don't' isn't necessarily that they think single gene animals are in and of themselves are bad, but that they're ALL OVER THE PLACE and finding somewhere for them to go can become a problematic money sink for the people who breed them (and that's not touching on the plight of the animals themselves).

...That doesn't mean there aren't people who consider Normals, Pastels, common single genes, and female deserts 'trash snakes'. I kinda think those people are just jerks though.

Well, there's a lot to reply to here, so I'll take it all in stride.

@ Sho22 Before the big girls fell in to my lap, I was not expecting to even attempt breeding until the late 2015 season at the earliest. That way I would have a sufficient amount of time to see if the project will prove out. It would give me time to select the snakes that I want, rather than just taking what's available. I got a great deal on my first package,I felt that the snakes that I purchased were fine examples of their genetics, and already had a plan set out for when I picked them up. Ivories, Bumblebees, Super Pastels. Future breeding plans after that involved using those with purchasing power to acquire mojaves/phantoms to aim for Purple Passions and Blue Eyed leucistics. The big normal females just kind of...happened, and require me to use some of the space that I was reserving for the other females that I was planning to purchase. I started out male heavy because I'm trying to be picky with what I'm breeding, to try to produce quality offspring.

@ wescoast http://www.worldofballpythons.com/wizard/ , Yeah. I keep it up and play with it constantly to find what I want to make. I have goals and the passion is definitely there. I love all of my snakes!

@PYTHONFRIEND I'm not really looking to get ahead of other breeders, or to create the next big thing. I love snakes. I love genetics. As far as just buying what I want to get what I want, there's a certain amount of a sense of accomplishment that comes from going the extra step and doing something for yourself rather than just buying it.

I also like some of the ideas that you had regarding what to breed with what. A lot of it is stuff that I had considered myself. By the by, the ultramel was like...$20, and was adorable, so I kind of tacked him on to my purchase in the event that I'm able to get a het ultramel female in the future. I know that, the females are not cheap though, so he's more of a pet with the potential to help a few years down the line.

@ Corbin911 Ah, no. I'm an enthusiast and not looking to make money from this. Not in the first few years, at least. Fortunately my costs have been very low thus far. I really only eat the cost of electric, food, snakes. The rest I either get for free or make myself. I'm in to this project right now for less than $300 without factoring food/electric. As I mentioned before, I don't even plan to breed this year. That may change with the addition of the big girls, but for the time being it's all planning for 2015 and beyond.

There's a lot more to touch on here, but it's late and I'm tired. :)

Thanks for all of the advice, and I'm definitely reading everything and taking it all in!

im not saying normal BPs or single-gene basic morph BPs are worthless or that they are not beautiful. they are beautful and they make really good pets.

but when you want to produce BPs, other factors come into play. like, the market situation. people give away single-gene males for free and people give away normals for free and they accumulate in reptile rescues. all BPs deserve a good life, but if you breed BPs that fall right into the segment of the market that is completely saturated, where will they end up?

it should not be this way and its messed up, but its true: if you hatch out a nice double or triple gene combo, something visually appealing, it will have better chances to have a better life. when 15 BPs arrive at a reptile sanctuary, mostly normals or basic single-gene BPs that look rather normal, but there also is a good looking kingpin and a BEL in there, its obvious that these very visual ones will successfully get rehomed first, the reptile sanctuary might even auction them for charity.

so trying to produce clutches with more genes is not just about getting ahead in the game. the other side of the story is that you want to produce less of these BPs that will be difficult to sell, and to make your BPs more appealing as pets, by giving them more attractive optics that are further away from the normal/classic look. its about avoiding the overly saturated bottom end of the market, where higher production is not needed because there already are problems and more hatchlings make it worse.

so when i say elsewhere something about recessives like: "dont breed het to het, breeding visual to het is fine when the het has a helpful extra gene, but really you want to breed visual to visual", its not just about money, its also that hets look like normals, so there is no additional appeal when its a pet, and breeders also show no interest when the het doesnt show high quality and doesnt have an extra gene.

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Originally Posted by sho220

Same could be said about every other combo out there. The "more equals better" philosophy has taken over ball python breeding. Quality is rarely taken into account. It's how many genes can I get crammed into a male for the lowest price so I can put him with a female that has as many genes crammed into her as I can afford.

A clean bright Bumblebee wows me more than a lot of the 3,4,5+ gene messes I see being produced these days...

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Nothing wrong with an ultra clean Pastel. Having an ultra clean animal gives you a better shot at good looking babies, but I've seen plenty of ugly Pastels come from a pretty Pastel. I have a Pastel that most would cast aside, or not even take for free. I call her "Big Brown". She makes some of the most amazing Pastels I have ever seen. Maybe she had an incubation issue that is not genetic??

Either way, she is here to stay and breeding a Nuclear Pinstripe now (Late layer.... October ovy last season).

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...pse6d8d18f.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...ps445e3ae4.jpg

Pastave from her last season. A good example of the morph IMHO. Bright yellows and high blushing that did not come from the Mojave sire.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...ps25c1ff53.jpg

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Originally Posted by sho220

Same could be said about every other combo out there. The "more equals better" philosophy has taken over ball python breeding. Quality is rarely taken into account. It's how many genes can I get crammed into a male for the lowest price so I can put him with a female that has as many genes crammed into her as I can afford.

A clean bright Bumblebee wows me more than a lot of the 3,4,5+ gene messes I see being produced these days...

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I simply can't agree more, Everything is so complicated and sometimes to me quit ugly, as you don't see any resemblance to what there gene's are... for example the "Gumball" I think that is one of the ugliest morphs to date.. Now vs that With something like a super pastel Clown or a Lavender pied. The 2-3 genes are were i think the "looks" max out at.. Anything more is complicated, Now there are a few like the Orange Dream Fire Enchi Spider, Which makes that super clean snake that looks amazing, but IMO its pretty rare.

I think it is worthwhile to have breeders exploring 4, 5, and more gene snakes. Some of the combos do look amazing. But for some reason it makes people forget that some of the 2, 3 gene combos look amazing. Heck, some single genes look amazing. Yet people are saying things like you shouldn't produce them, except as side products of bigger projects. Sad.

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Originally Posted by sho220

Same could be said about every other combo out there. The "more equals better" philosophy has taken over ball python breeding. Quality is rarely taken into account. It's how many genes can I get crammed into a male for the lowest price so I can put him with a female that has as many genes crammed into her as I can afford.

A clean bright Bumblebee wows me more than a lot of the 3,4,5+ gene messes I see being produced these days...

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I am by no means an expert. I dont even have my females yet but there are a few things I do quite well. I am a planner with some OCD. I actually am the other recipient from oskyle1567 100% Het Ghost male that he gave away last week. One of those "fall in your lap" kinda things. I however didnt jump up and get excited for a new breeder. I have a spreadsheet for what males I need as well as females and the optimum output when paired. These are animals that I would like to produce for me. Not as a side business or snakes for profit but an honest to god interest in snakes and genetics.
I also am fairly handy so I build my own racks. So I am able to offset my cost and pretty much have everything planned out. Only thing I am not worried about nickel and diming is electricity.

I completely agree with sho220 in the fact that there are so many people just making snakes. Who stops and thinks where the results will be in 20 years when bumblebees are no longer cool. Some of these multi gene creations look like they are BPs with serious defects but very cool cause they are pretty. I think the health of the animal should also be taken into consideration. Any ways I am new to breeding and havent even started yet and have no plans on it until I build a 9-41qt rack as well as a 28-6qt rack and an incubator. Already have a 1k Honda generator which will supply backup power in case of loss of power.

Good luck and quality over quantity.